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So just finished the Helsreach book, and I gotta say, the entire chapter of the Black Templars are kinda, jerks. From Helbrect and his "Thank you sir may I have another" initiation ceremony, to Grimaldus going full Darth Vader on anyone who slightly loses hope while he is constantly bemoaning how he's going to die, to the constantly weepy apothacary who gets smacked around for crying, it's all so.....not what I expected.

1. Never read a book where SM's disdain for anything not a SM was so....prevelent. Their disrepect for base humans is borderline Racist, and yet they have this out of no where respect for the Princeps of Ad Mech.

2. Black Templars call themselves Knights. This was a little confusing at first. Not really a bad thing, just thrown by it at first. Are they the only chapter that does this? I know the Death Company call themselves "Knights of Caliban", but I've never seen the words Space Marine almost uniformly replaced by "Knight".

3. Love the portrayal of the efficacy of the Storm Troopers. Best I've read yet. Even the way they are talked about in the Guard books pales to this. They are basically slightly insane master Combatants.

4. Machine Spirts taking over the drivers is silly and I don't like it.


Are BT's basically just slightly more angry Word Bearers? They are the same as to their being fervently religious sects, but I still don't know if this is their only lore portrayal?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
2. Black Templars call themselves Knights. This was a little confusing at first. Not really a bad thing, just thrown by it at first. Are they the only chapter that does this? I know the Death Company call themselves "Knights of Caliban", but I've never seen the words Space Marine almost uniformly replaced by "Knight".

I think you may mean Dark Angels instead of Death Company? But anyway, yes, Space Marines are often compared to Knights and knightly orders, with many even having the word "Knight" or similar in their Chapter name. Not to mention, to give the Templars of our history their full name, they were usually referred to as the "Knights Templar".

Are BT's basically just slightly more angry Word Bearers? They are the same as to their being fervently religious sects, but I still don't know if this is their only lore portrayal?

I've only got Codex lore and the BTs' original lore from their first appearances in White Dwarf to go by... but basically, yeah, pretty much! They're almost unique among Marine Chapters, in that most don't actually worship the Emperor as a God in the way they do. But of course, because they worship the Emperor they're devout and holy, whereas because the Word Bearers don't they're filthy traitorous scum.

 Super Ready wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
2. Black Templars call themselves Knights. This was a little confusing at first. Not really a bad thing, just thrown by it at first. Are they the only chapter that does this? I know the Death Company call themselves "Knights of Caliban", but I've never seen the words Space Marine almost uniformly replaced by "Knight".

I think you may mean Dark Angels instead of Death Company? But anyway, yes, Space Marines are often compared to Knights and knightly orders, with many even having the word "Knight" or similar in their Chapter name. Not to mention, to give the Templars of our history their full name, they were usually referred to as the "Knights Templar".

Are BT's basically just slightly more angry Word Bearers? They are the same as to their being fervently religious sects, but I still don't know if this is their only lore portrayal?

I've only got Codex lore and the BTs' original lore from their first appearances in White Dwarf to go by... but basically, yeah, pretty much! They're almost unique among Marine Chapters, in that most don't actually worship the Emperor as a God in the way they do. But of course, because they worship the Emperor they're devout and holy, whereas because the Word Bearers don't they're filthy traitorous scum.

Yup, thank you for the correction! But it's also funny to me that the Sisters in the book find the BT's to be annoying and over-zealous. This is a company of Sisters, calling someone else too-pious.

Not read Helsreach but...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Never read a book where SM's disdain for anything not a SM was so....prevelent. Their disrepect for base humans is borderline Racist, and yet they have this out of no where respect for the Princeps of Ad Mech.

Might just be author interpretation, but they are fanatical and driven by dogma and martial pride. It wouldn't be humans they distain so much as lack of will - in another templar fluff piece for instance a force of them arrive on a world to observe it's impressive piety (after the governer had wiped out a significant fraction of the population for not being pious enough), and in the 'know no fear' short story their attitutes towards their sororitas allies mainly boils down to distate at their own failings rather than anything the sisters themselves do.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
2. Black Templars call themselves Knights. This was a little confusing at first. Not really a bad thing, just thrown by it at first. Are they the only chapter that does this? I know the Death Company call themselves "Knights of Caliban", but I've never seen the words Space Marine almost uniformly replaced by "Knight".

Dark Angels were originally native-american themed with feathers, lightning bolts, charm-necklaces. In 3rd edition Azrael was recruited from tribal headhunters and of the chapter itself "no records of its beginnings nor any mention of its part in the Emperor's Great Crusade". 4th edition saw the original nobles of Caliban become horse-riding knights in dark forests full of monsters.

By comparison the templars were medieval crusader-themed burn the witch and deus vult from the start but as the faction slowly faded into the ranks of black-painted ultramarines the dark angels have taken on the knightly chapter trappings more and more while the ghostwalking spirituality of their old fluff has mostly gone.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are BT's basically just slightly more angry Word Bearers? They are the same as to their being fervently religious sects, but I still don't know if this is their only lore portrayal?

The World Bearers are uncontrolled berzerkers who want to kill, maim, and burn for the sake of blood for the blood god. The templars by comparison are kill, maim and burn because they have an enduring hatred for and desire to annihilate anyone they consider their enemy.

The difference in target selection. Black Templars will never get worked up and rampage back through a friendly unit of guardsmen for example (unlike the Flesh Tearers) - they have a very specific idea of who they want dead and are very enthusiatic about it, but a 'friendly' is going to be much safer around them than around... Iron Hands for example. They are unforgiving but not actively malicious nor murderous for the sake of murder.

A.T. wrote:
The World Bearers are uncontrolled berzerkers who want to kill, maim, and burn for the sake of blood for the blood god. The templars by comparison are kill, maim and burn because they have an enduring hatred for and desire to annihilate anyone they consider their enemy.

The difference in target selection. Black Templars will never get worked up and rampage back through a friendly unit of guardsmen for example (unlike the Flesh Tearers) - they have a very specific idea of who they want dead and are very enthusiatic about it, but a 'friendly' is going to be much safer around them than around... Iron Hands for example. They are unforgiving but not actively malicious nor murderous for the sake of murder.

Word Bearers or World Eaters? There's no World Bearers.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yup, thank you for the correction! But it's also funny to me that the Sisters in the book find the BT's to be annoying and over-zealous. This is a company of Sisters, calling someone else too-pious.

Zealous or pious?
You can't be too pious, but some of the sisters orders are actually known for considered tactical actions that probably don't reach the templars 'head-on daylight assault across the mindfield' level of zeal.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Word Bearers or World Eaters? There's no World Bearers.

Thinking of world eaters. Mixing up my legions.

There's a scene in one of the "War of the Beast" books where Black Templars start killing their abhuman allies and the other Chapters have to tell them to stop it.

A.T. wrote:
Thinking of world eaters. Mixing up my legions.

Makes sense. Easy to do.

A.T. wrote:
Dark Angels were originally native-american themed with feathers, lightning bolts, charm-necklaces. In 3rd edition Azrael was recruited from tribal headhunters and of the chapter itself "no records of its beginnings nor any mention of its part in the Emperor's Great Crusade". 4th edition saw the original nobles of Caliban become horse-riding knights in dark forests full of monsters.

Worth mentioning - the Dark Angels' knightly fluff regarding "The Order" actually comes from their 2nd ed Codex (and possibly even earlier? I joined in 2nd, I suppose there's a chance it was covered in White Dwarf or elsewhere even before that). In any case, the 2nd ed details cover both Caliban's largely tribal nature (the "peasants" if you will), and the existence of The Order being a society of their own above the tribes, tucked up safe in their fortress between quests into the wilderness.
It seems the 3rd ed retraction was some kind of attempt to give them back some additional sense of mystery, possibly combined with 3rd's Codexes being much smaller - but happily they gave up on that approach for 4th ed and restored their previous lore.

 Super Ready wrote:
Worth mentioning - the Dark Angels' knightly fluff regarding "The Order" actually comes from their 2nd ed Codex

Yeah, they did seem a bit all over the place with what the dark angels were supposed to be early on between different sources (I think I first saw them in space hulk) and the design of the models themselves that seemed at completely odds with the european-knight theme.

Grimaldus gets in a pretty heated discussion with a completely indifferent Salamander in the book, where the Salamander takes a Holding action to protect fleeing civilians, and the BT's demand them to attack, which is denied. Grimaldus or Primus, one of the two, has to fight to stop from attacking the Salamander, for what he believes (wrongly) is cowardice. That is what I would call Zealous. It's kinda funny, the orks aren't so different in their contempt for anything not them, and willingness to slaughter without end, just to do so.

To be fair, I'm not sure what anyone would expect from the Black Templars, even just a cursory visual inspection screams "we're not good guys", dour dudes in black armor festooned with skull iconography and known for their zealous fanaticism and warcry of "no pity, no remorse" is pretty much inherently defining them to fundamentally be jerks, and everything about their personality traits and worldviews would make the BT's archetypal villains in any other IP. The only reason they're not lumped in with such in 40k all the time is that they're typically set facing the inhuman, mostly allowing their less savory facets to be swept aside.

Well, Grimaldus is described as having soft and thoughtful eyes, intelligence, and cares about people, not just personal advancement. It's clear the author wanted, or started to make him a semi-likable character, then remembered it was 40k, and veered off into making him a complete bastard. The only really likeable character in the whole book is Andre the insane Storm Trooper. Mostly because he says jokes from time to time: on a conscript trying to unload his rifle:"You have to ask the respect the Lasguns' spirit! Ask it nicely!" Had me laughing for a solid minute.

The iron hands make them look like boy scouts.

Also some orks show more respect for humans than some marines do.

When it comes to marines respecting humans sgt. Rafael of the blood angels had it right at armageddon when he almost dismissed a guardsman as "only human" then caught himself and realized to be dismissive of humans was to be dismissive of the emperor who cared for the human race and to begin the journey that the chaos traitors made 10,000 years ago.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Grimaldus gets in a pretty heated discussion with a completely indifferent Salamander in the book, where the Salamander takes a Holding action to protect fleeing civilians, and the BT's demand them to attack, which is denied.

The original character-piece that established the Grimaldus character was the defense of Helsreach where he commanded a small force of black templars and the defending milita and imperial guard forces.

After a two month siege the orks broke through the defenses and began the assault in earnest, and the guard fled. Grimaldus announced that he and the templars would not take one step back - victory or death - enough to rally the defenders into one last action. Everyone except Grimaldus died on both sides, the three servitors that come with his model carry bits of the temple he fought in.

Compared to actual jerks like the Iron Hands who would leave a world to die because they do not see the value in saving it compared to the potential cost to the chapter. A templar will demand you throw yourself to die fighting impossible odds, but he'd be first into the fray. Everyone fights, no-one quits.

It is a pragmatic/fatalistic fanatacism as Sigismund himself put it : "We will spend our lives fighting to secure this Imperium, and then I fear we will spend the rest of our days fighting to keep it intact.
There is such involving darkness amongst the stars. Even when the Imperium is complete, there will be no peace. We will be obliged to fight on to preserve what we have fought to establish. Peace is a vain wish. Our crusade may one day adopt another name, but it will never truly end. In the far future, there will be only war."

By default, any human from the Imperium should be considered a "jerk" (to put it lightly) unless proven otherwise. It's the "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." Sure, you can admire their perseverance, determination and skill... they'd crawl through an ocean of fire and climb mountains to accomplish their goals. It's just that their goals include things like sadistically murdering innocent babies who are born intersex or with six fingers or whatever.

Black Templars are pretty par for the course for the Imperium. Chapters like Salamanders are abnormal in that context.

Honestly it sounds like just a slightly off portrayal by the author.

I think one of the better examples of BT marines was in Forges of Mars. Maybe it was because the Templars were essentially guests aboard the Admech ship but while they were still jerks and religious zealots they did actually come through in the end and put themselves out there to protect the human/semi-human characters.

Historical archetypes, I reckon. With a bit of rose tinting.

Generally, Knights saw themselves as a cut above.

I’m at serious risk of getting all political here, so I’ll cut this post short. But hopefully you can imagine what I’m meaning.

I wish there were better books about the "Faith" aspect of Astartes, and what led them to be this way. Certainly not the Emperor, he would have opposed it in extremely strong terms, being a strict Secularist. So was it Dorn?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I wish there were better books about the "Faith" aspect of Astartes, and what led them to be this way. Certainly not the Emperor, he would have opposed it in extremely strong terms, being a strict Secularist. So was it Dorn?

It's actually a minority of Astartes who feel this way. And it wasn't Dorn; probably has more to do with Sigismund.

The Space Wolves, for example, certainly *venerate* Russ and the Emperor, but they don't worship them. They *worship* the world-spirit of Fenris.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So just finished the Helsreach book, and I gotta say, the entire chapter of the Black Templars are kinda, jerks. From Helbrect and his "Thank you sir may I have another" initiation ceremony, to Grimaldus going full Darth Vader on anyone who slightly loses hope while he is constantly bemoaning how he's going to die, to the constantly weepy apothacary who gets smacked around for crying, it's all so.....not what I expected.

1. Never read a book where SM's disdain for anything not a SM was so....prevelent. Their disrepect for base humans is borderline Racist, and yet they have this out of no where respect for the Princeps of Ad Mech.

2. Black Templars call themselves Knights. This was a little confusing at first. Not really a bad thing, just thrown by it at first. Are they the only chapter that does this? I know the Death Company call themselves "Knights of Caliban", but I've never seen the words Space Marine almost uniformly replaced by "Knight".

3. Love the portrayal of the efficacy of the Storm Troopers. Best I've read yet. Even the way they are talked about in the Guard books pales to this. They are basically slightly insane master Combatants.

4. Machine Spirts taking over the drivers is silly and I don't like it.

Are BT's basically just slightly more angry Word Bearers? They are the same as to their being fervently religious sects, but I still don't know if this is their only lore portrayal?

This was the book that made me start buying Black Templars

Yep the BT like alot of Marines are often dicks especially with regard to "mortals" - however its notable that Grimaldus does mellow (once he has gotten past his self hatred/abadonment issues)

He also respects those who have proven themselves - eg the fighter squadron who have fought alongside the Templars before.

I enjoyed his relationship with the Crone - although she is not just a Princeps - she is an ancient warrior who commands a substantial portion of a entire Titan Legion. The kind eyes thing was fun and even caught him off guard

The religious element worked well for me - they are zealous and fanatical but he does not kill out of hand....even gives mortals a chance to prove themselves.

Agree on the Stormtrooper portrayal - sad for him at the end....

Various Chapters have their own naming conventions - they often use Brother but its not that uncommon.

Outright worship doesn't seem prevalent in the Imperial Fists, so I doubt it was Dorn. It seems largely contained in the Black Templars, and a few lesser known successor chapters.

 Thadin wrote:
Outright worship doesn't seem prevalent in the Imperial Fists, so I doubt it was Dorn. It seems largely contained in the Black Templars, and a few lesser known successor chapters.

Yup, this. The Fists are most definitely not the type - it's outlined somewhere (I want to say in the Fists supplement) that when the Black Templars were split out, they were made up of the original Legion's most hot-headed and fervent members, particularly those who rankled at Dorn's eventual decision to follow the Codex Astartes. Those that remained in the progenitor Chapter (and the Crimson Fists) were the more level-headed, pragmatic ones.

Which is funny, because is idolatry is bad, then their practically god worship of dorn is downright blasphemous.

And yet the Black Templars were the sole Chapter to give even the beginnings of a British food when The Inquisition ORK SNIPERS made it their mission to wipe the Celestial Lions from existance.

Authors gonna author.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And yet the Black Templars were the sole Chapter to give even the beginnings of a British food when The Inquisition ORK SNIPERS made it their mission to wipe the Celestial Lions from existance.

Authors gonna author.

"even the beginnings of a british food"?

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And yet the Black Templars were the sole Chapter to give even the beginnings of a British food when The Inquisition ORK SNIPERS made it their mission to wipe the Celestial Lions from existance.

Authors gonna author.

"even the beginnings of a british food"?

What adjective would you describe British food with?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And yet the Black Templars were the sole Chapter to give even the beginnings of a British food when The Inquisition ORK SNIPERS made it their mission to wipe the Celestial Lions from existance.

Authors gonna author.

"even the beginnings of a british food"?

What adjective would you describe British food with?

Varied, tasty, diverse.... any of these.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And yet the Black Templars were the sole Chapter to give even the beginnings of a British food when The Inquisition ORK SNIPERS made it their mission to wipe the Celestial Lions from existance.

Authors gonna author.

"even the beginnings of a british food"?

What adjective would you describe British food with?

Varied, tasty, diverse.... any of these.

I mean we could debate for ages on the merits of british cooking and weather or not Fish 'n Chips and yorkshire pudding forgives their tendancy to boil vegatables down until the consistancy of a slimy paste or not. but given the term used was "even the beginnings of a british food" I'm assuming he was thinking something specific.

 JNAProductions wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Thinking of world eaters. Mixing up my legions.

Makes sense. Easy to do.

The World Bearers were a loyalist chapter of the cursed 13th founding known for their skills in close assault and their strong faith. After being attacked by their own allies on several occasions the Chapters was re-founded with a new name, the Word Eaters.