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The sisters tend to see the BTs as a bunch of bible-thumping evangelical pentecostals.

 chromedog wrote:
The sisters tend to see the BTs as a bunch of bible-thumping evangelical pentecostals.

the phrase "pot kettle black" comes to mind

 chromedog wrote:
The sisters tend to see the BTs as a bunch of bible-thumping evangelical pentecostals.

Source?

In the old fluff at least the templars were 'burn the heretic, kill the mutant', not 'praise be'.

I was under the impression the Adepta Sororitas, despite the fanbases fascination for headcanoning them as swooning over Salamanders, despise the Astartes as mutants.

I don't know if "despise" is the right word for it, that indicates outright hate. I always thought of it as "disdain", or sometimes "grudging respect" where earned. But also, it's been noted in a few sources (not least of all, the latest Sisters Codex) that they actually get on better with Black Templars than most Chapters because of their similarities.
So any authors pinning tension on a strained relationship between the two, is playing fastball with established canon.

I remember in a SoB novel I read (sorry, can't remember which right now, one of the James Swallow books I think) they derided the Astartes use of psykers, but that obviously wouldn't be an issue with the Templars, so I could see them getting on with them better.

 Super Ready wrote:
I don't know if "despise" is the right word for it, that indicates outright hate.

The Imperium's a hateful place. I wouldn't be surprised. I get the impression that most everyone hates everyone in the Imperium.

The sisters are quite literally one of the worst "haters" groups. They are like Dirty Harry, they hate everyone until you prove worthy of a modicum of grudging respect.

BT's are a lot like that too, so you see the similarity. Big difference is that BT's count themselves as gods to the "weak mortals". Whereas Sisters are just SUPER catholic in their self hating "I am not worthy" schtick.

I read the Beast arises series and when the Templars show up I thought immediately, oh, so these are 40K Klingons

All SM are essential brainwashed warrior soldiers who belive the emperor is a good. It would make any jihad from american tv post 9/11 look very tame in comparison.

They are also recruited at a young age. Age 13 to 18 or something. To be inserted through the traumatic episode that is becoming a SM and joining such a warrior cult does not make for the sharpest thinkers. Or the most psykological sound.

This is rarly explored in the setting. While it works for the hole black humor facist empire angle, I am not supriced when somebody are jerks.

Also please check out the chacaradons during the abbadon wars. Now they are very unpleasant.

Any SM chapter taken at their worst and most brutal looks positively horrid. But the worst and most destructive have to be the Minotaurs. They wipe out entire cities just to take down a few Heretics. They have no thought for friendly fire, or attacking friends. They openly attacked Custodes during the aftermath of the invasion of Terra, and got whooped, but still. They make the Salamanders look like Mr. Rogers in Power Armor.

 Niiai wrote:
All SM are essential brainwashed warrior soldiers who belive the emperor is a good.

I take it you meant to say "god" here...? I see the point in your post - but this is worth correcting. SM are almost alone in the Imperium, in that (apart from the odd Chapter like the Black Templars) they do not believe the Emperor is a god and do not worship him. They revere and greatly respect him, and recognise him as very powerful and mighty, but most definitely not as a god.
This is addressed multiple times in the fluff and is a long-standing source of conflict between various Marine Chapters and the Ecclesiarchy, who are kind of forced to put up with them.

 Super Ready wrote:

This is addressed multiple times in the fluff and is a long-standing source of conflict between various Marine Chapters and the Ecclesiarchy, who are kind of forced to put up with them.

There's literally an entire page dedicated to this in the 9th edition codex.

Black Templars are loyalist purists and pious fanatics. Praise their purges and xenocides! Praise their pogroms and massacres of the unclean! Hail their witch-hunts and glorious crusades! Rejoice in their pyres and skull pyramids and mass graves, for they cleanse mankind! Give praise to the God-Emperor for their unceasing devotion and singleminded slaughter across the stars!

No regret. No remorse. No mercy.

Black Templars are a good piece of 40k worldbuilding, true to the depraved and tongue-in-cheek degenerate comedy-wrapped-in-tragedy bonkers spirit of the setting. There should be more like them among the Astartes. They truly are Imperial exemplars.

Ave Imperator

 Super Ready wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
All SM are essential brainwashed warrior soldiers who belive the emperor is a good.

I take it you meant to say "god" here...? I see the point in your post - but this is worth correcting. SM are almost alone in the Imperium, in that (apart from the odd Chapter like the Black Templars) they do not believe the Emperor is a god and do not worship him. They revere and greatly respect him, and recognise him as very powerful and mighty, but most definitely not as a god.
This is addressed multiple times in the fluff and is a long-standing source of conflict between various Marine Chapters and the Ecclesiarchy, who are kind of forced to put up with them.

I am a dyslectic typing on my phone. I did mean to say god. It depends a bit on how you define worshop and how you define god. The BT as you refer to. The SW has Russ as their top dog, and the emperor is the 'allfather', an Odin referense. I would say how most chapters in most of the books and games I have played regard the emperor as something like a god, or akin to a god. At the very least in some form of autocratic rule. Also, the SM are thematically based on knights who traditionaly are christian. And the ships they drive around in are formed like giant churches. Saying they do not worship the emperor is in my eyes splitting hairs. But this is the not the hill I am going to die on, so feel free to pour over me with counter arguments, it matters little.

There is a difference between Veneration and Worship, and the distinction is what sets the majority of SM chapters from the wider imperium.

There are SM chapters that do worship the Emperor, but most don't.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Any SM chapter taken at their worst and most brutal looks positively horrid. But the worst and most destructive have to be the Minotaurs. They wipe out entire cities just to take down a few Heretics. They have no thought for friendly fire, or attacking friends. They openly attacked Custodes during the aftermath of the invasion of Terra, and got whooped, but still. They make the Salamanders look like Mr. Rogers in Power Armor.

Never heard of the Marines Malevolent before, have you?

If burning heretics in holy fire makes you a jerk well I don't wan nothing to do with that 40k universe where that's the case

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The sisters are quite literally one of the worst "haters" groups. They are like Dirty Harry, they hate everyone until you prove worthy of a modicum of grudging respect.

BT's are a lot like that too, so you see the similarity. Big difference is that BT's count themselves as gods to the "weak mortals". Whereas Sisters are just SUPER catholic in their self hating "I am not worthy" schtick.

In the Illuminati card game there were all these different factions and each had an opposite. The opposite of groups classed as 'Fanatic' was other fanatics.

So I can clearly see Templars and Sisters hating each other. It would be like ISIS and Christian Fundamentalists meeting up. They ain't gonna bond over their commonalities.

Remember that many marine chapters spend most of their time separated from mortals. The only time they spend with normies is when they are purging heretics, rebels or have to work with Imperial Guard/PDF.

You have probably been with with someone of less intelligence or social skill (like a child) and found yourself getting frustrated, even though you should know better (its not their fault!).

Marines who ordinarily rely on their brothers finding themselves reliant on fragile, fearful non superhumans with slower brains and bodies feel that frustration, but in the case of the Templars, they won't have had much practice or guidance in managing it, or even communicating effectively.

What do you mean you can't descend into the poison filled labyrinth? You need to wait for a rebreathers to be issued?

We have them on the run! What do you mean rest and rearm?

 Argive wrote:
If burning heretics in holy fire makes you a jerk well I don't wan nothing to do with that 40k universe where that's the case

Hate to say it... virtually everyone in 40k is a jerk. Yes, burning heretics in holy fire does make you a jerk, it just means you happen to be in relatively safe company while doing it.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Argive wrote:
If burning heretics in holy fire makes you a jerk well I don't wan nothing to do with that 40k universe where that's the case

Hate to say it... virtually everyone in 40k is a jerk. Yes, burning heretics in holy fire does make you a jerk, it just means you happen to be in relatively safe company while doing it.

I happen to think that a lot of the cruelty is practical. Burning a heretic means that no trace of organic material is left(which could be tainted by chaos, and could otherwise infect others/enter the corpse starch recycling). Blessed promethium cleanses spiritual infection and protects the community.

You could humanely put someone to death and cremate their corpse afterwards, but you run the risk of the heretic being immune to mundane weapons or lethal injections. Plus, where is the flair in that?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I was under the impression the Adepta Sororitas, despite the fanbases fascination for headcanoning them as swooning over Salamanders, despise the Astartes as mutants.

Its not that simple - its 40k it depends on the situation, the Order, the individual Sisters and the Astartes.

The Sisterhood know and recognise that the Astartes are the creations and children of the Emperor and revere them as such.

However those who encounter them and fight alongside them can be surprised by how they act.

They also know that hundreds of thousands of Marines have fallen to Choas in the past so they are not by any stretch infalable.

The Flesh-Tearers massacure on Armageddon of Civilians caused the Canoness present to report their behaviour to the Inquisiton - which makes sense - if you are worried that Astartes are in danger of falling into heresy or worse - who do you tell.

The novel in the OP Helsreach does have Grimladus acknowledging the piety and even bravery of the Sisterhood but he is still conscious that to him, they are weak mortals. When Mortals do show promise he does recognise this

Don’t the black Templar’s exists to continue the great crusade, for them it never stopped. Surely they should respect humans above all other chapters

mrFickle wrote:
Don’t the black Templar’s exists to continue the great crusade, for them it never stopped. Surely they should respect humans above all other chapters

Did many of the Marines respect or understand mortals in the original Great Crusade?

 Mr Morden wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Don’t the black Templar’s exists to continue the great crusade, for them it never stopped. Surely they should respect humans above all other chapters

Did many of the Marines respect or understand mortals in the original Great Crusade?

Some less than others but yes until they had to choose between the war master and humanity.

So in the same Chapter, Grimaldus both derided Yarrick (The guy who fought a warboss in Melee) for being weak and cowardly for giving up a world without a fight (Smart tactical plan) and then laments that the "Mortals" are incapable of properly dealing with the situation at hand. Throughout the book Grimaldus accuses several brothers of lacking fore-thought or intelligence, and rushing blindly into a situation thus causing brothers to be wounded. But then wants to fight the largest Ork Fleet in HISTORY, because "THES COLURS DON'T RUN SON!" He's a walking contradiction of intent and purpose as a character, only eclipsed by the completely flawed attempt at a character that makes up his Chapter Master (Helbrect).

mrFickle wrote:
Don’t the black Templar’s exists to continue the great crusade, for them it never stopped.

No, the Black Templars exist because Dorn didn't want to start another civil war by defying Guillimans demands (the Imperial Fists were actually fired on when they didn't back him initially), but at the same time he didn't have the mindset to pull a Russ by saying yes to his face and then ignoring him.

The templars were all of the most stubborn Fists told to head out and keep fighting the good fight, unspokenly far enough away from Terra that any failure to follow the codex astartes (particularly the 1000 marine limit) would be impossible to prove with them all spread out and moving around. This all continued until 6th edition when they were wiped out and replaced by a chapter of cunningly disguised ultramarines.


On the subject of templars and sisters it is interesting to note that one of the first (if not the first) deployment of the young neophyte Helbrect was in a long campaign alongside the sisterhood (Vinculus), and that the first contact between the sisters and the templars would almost certainly have been the siege of the ecclesiarchal fortress on Terra at the end of the apostasy where the two fought until the Emperor himself intervened.

I was with you right up till "This all continued until 6th edition when they were wiped out and replaced by a chapter of cunningly disguised ultramarines."

Please explain?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was with you right up till "This all continued until 6th edition when they were wiped out and replaced by a chapter of cunningly disguised ultramarines."

Please explain?

I'm pretty sure he's referring to when Black Templars got rolled back into the main space marine codex during 6th edition, where the previous blurb about BT having a variable number from 3k-6k marines got removed and it was assumed they were back at the usual 1k size for a SM chapter. A lot of the original flavour was changed, like their hatred/intolerance towards all psykers being changed to only unsanctioned/heretical/xenos psykers while they respect and venerate certain psykers like astropaths for their communion with the Emperor. This is also where they went fully explicit with the Templars worshipping the Emperor, rather than implicitly like before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So in the same Chapter, Grimaldus both derided Yarrick (The guy who fought a warboss in Melee) for being weak and cowardly for giving up a world without a fight (Smart tactical plan) and then laments that the "Mortals" are incapable of properly dealing with the situation at hand. Throughout the book Grimaldus accuses several brothers of lacking fore-thought or intelligence, and rushing blindly into a situation thus causing brothers to be wounded. But then wants to fight the largest Ork Fleet in HISTORY, because "THES COLURS DON'T RUN SON!" He's a walking contradiction of intent and purpose as a character, only eclipsed by the completely flawed attempt at a character that makes up his Chapter Master (Helbrect).

Also, I don't remember the scene where Grimaldus bad talks Yarrick, if I remember correctly he is implied to respect him despite being only a commissar during the war meeting. Can you give us a quote?