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 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Except other ships (even other Imperial ships) have autoloaders.

The slavery thing is just pointless cruelty. A lot of "we do it FOR DA SURVIVULZ" is really just thinly veiled pointless cruelty. That used to be the POINT of the setting, but people love their imperium so...

Servitors cost more than a human being in 40k, that's simply the reality of the universe.

Right but they are also less survivable. I guess when I said "pointless cruelty" I included "enslaving people because free labor is cheap" as pointless. But you're right, the point is to value human life even less than the Chaos Gods and some xenos species do

So perhaps not literally pointless. It's actually even worse and crueler than pointlessness.

You're dangerously close to the Thermian fallacy right now.

"This aspect of a fictional universe is bad according to my morality! The authors have the power to not make it like that, so they should!"

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're dangerously close to the Thermian fallacy right now.

"This aspect of a fictional universe is bad according to my morality! The authors have the power to not make it like that, so they should!"

No? I think the authors know full well what they're doing. After all, they outright state it's the bloodiest, cruelest regime imaginable in the tagline. It's that way on purpose.

My problem is with people who think that the Imperium is the "good guys" and is the best it can be, and couldn't be better.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You're dangerously close to the Thermian fallacy right now.

"This aspect of a fictional universe is bad according to my morality! The authors have the power to not make it like that, so they should!"

My problem is with people who think that the Imperium is the "good guys" and is the best it can be, and couldn't be better.

Do people really think that ?
Or do they think that based on the in-universe history, plot armour logic & limitations the IOM is the way it is because it just is and cant be different because it wouldin't be the IOM any more.

 Argive wrote:


Do people really think that ?
Or do they think that based on the in-universe history, plot armour logic & limitations the IOM is the way it is because it just is and cant be different because it wouldin't be the IOM any more.

Unsurprisingly, there are quite a few people out there who see a horrifying fascist state that spans the known universe who proclaim "purge the xenos filth" as a good thing.

What we know and the writers know is that the 40k universe is supposed to seem horrible to us, it's meant to be a terrifying future where human life is meaningless and thrown away over nothing. However, there's plenty out there who take the whole thing at face value because it fits their world view.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Argive wrote:


Do people really think that ?
Or do they think that based on the in-universe history, plot armour logic & limitations the IOM is the way it is because it just is and cant be different because it wouldin't be the IOM any more.

Unsurprisingly, there are quite a few people out there who see a horrifying fascist state that spans the known universe who proclaim "purge the xenos filth" as a good thing.

What we know and the writers know is that the 40k universe is supposed to seem horrible to us, it's meant to be a terrifying future where human life is meaningless and thrown away over nothing. However, there's plenty out there who take the whole thing at face value because it fits their world view.

I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe. Especially on the internet, where people can say whatever without consequence just to troll others, I wouldn't take seeing a few people on the web being overzealous in their support of the Imperium to be indicative of a large movement of 40k enthusiasts to be pro-fascism or implementing the crazy stuff of 40k IRL.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 Argive wrote:


Do people really think that ?
Or do they think that based on the in-universe history, plot armour logic & limitations the IOM is the way it is because it just is and cant be different because it wouldin't be the IOM any more.

Unsurprisingly, there are quite a few people out there who see a horrifying fascist state that spans the known universe who proclaim "purge the xenos filth" as a good thing.

What we know and the writers know is that the 40k universe is supposed to seem horrible to us, it's meant to be a terrifying future where human life is meaningless and thrown away over nothing. However, there's plenty out there who take the whole thing at face value because it fits their world view.

I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe. Especially on the internet, where people can say whatever without consequence just to troll others, I wouldn't take seeing a few people on the web being overzealous in their support of the Imperium to be indicative of a large movement of 40k enthusiasts to be pro-fascism or implementing the crazy stuff of 40k IRL.

Sadly certain figures adopted comparisons between the emperor and political figures they liked as a rallying call. that said if these people had even more then a cursory understanding of the Horus Heresy they'd not be using that comparison in a positive way. So I suspect it's more by people who "know about 40k, know the rough memes but aren't deep fans of the lore"

 Grimskul wrote:
I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe.

Well, you have people who think that behaving like the IoM is the right thing to do, considering the facts of the 40k universe. There are people like that all over this site.

Hecaton wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe.

Well, you have people who think that behaving like the IoM is the right thing to do, considering the facts of the 40k universe. There are people like that all over this site.

Well within the context of the fluff, the IoM has survived for 10 millenia, a mind-boggling amount of time, meaning that they are doing SOMETHING right or it would have fallen apart millenia earlier. The IoM as we know it is a result of civil war and what was learnt during the Age of Strife, that when humanity spread across the stars and signed the treaties with various alien empires that it was ultimately a mistake. First, mankind was betrayed by its own science when the Men of Iron turned against humanity. Secondly, when mankind was beset by warp storms and rampant unchecked psykers, the vast majority of aliens saw mankind's weakness and took advantage to slay or enslave humans. Similarly, the open societies that fostered psykers were amongst the first to fall to daemonic incursion as they became unwitting portals to the Empyrean. Between these two events, it's no wonder mankind as a whole is so xenophobic and mistrusting of technology. This kind of intergenerational trauma isn't something you just get over, and reflects the dark aspect of the setting of how "better safe than sorry" is actually better than risking progress that can be literally be a Tzzentchian plot for you to unwittingly summon demons. So I can see why, within what we are given in the setting, that people see the IoM as "right" as far as it being a viable empire in what it does to survive.

The Cruellest and Most Bloody Regime Imaginable

It is imperative for the spirit of the setting, as set down in the 1980s, that the Imperium of Man is needlessly cruel, insanely counter-productive, inept and corrupt. Since everyone is wrong in 40k (likewise imperative in the worldbuilding), the point of the Imperium as humanity's last strong shield is only valid in so far as one also considers that the rotting state of the Imperium has effectively doomed mankind in the long run: It's a dead end, incapable of a true scientific-technological revival, in the darkest of futures.

The Imperium is not meant to be a stern but sane protector of humanity. It is not meant to ultimately be a force for good, only being harsh because a hard universe demands it; far from it. It is meant to be an insane colossus on feet of clay, stampeding with blind fanaticism down the path of decay, spiralling ever downward.

The debate over the Imperium as a force for human survival, visavi the Imperium as a fundamentally rotten orgy of ineptitude and atrocity, reminds one a great deal of similar historical discussions about Stalin's Soviet Union. GW was always good at building settings which invited for discussion.

Remember that it is far more grimdark if the Imperium's enormous dysfunctionality, misery and massive purges are fundamentally unnecessary, and even counter-productive to the interests of human survival. The Imperium as merely just a necessary evil isn't grimdark enough. It is both evil, and a failed carrier of human interstellar civilization beyond just delaying the inevitable.

Therefore it is right and proper for Black Templars to be murderous jerks.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 Argive wrote:


Do people really think that ?
Or do they think that based on the in-universe history, plot armour logic & limitations the IOM is the way it is because it just is and cant be different because it wouldin't be the IOM any more.

Unsurprisingly, there are quite a few people out there who see a horrifying fascist state that spans the known universe who proclaim "purge the xenos filth" as a good thing.

What we know and the writers know is that the 40k universe is supposed to seem horrible to us, it's meant to be a terrifying future where human life is meaningless and thrown away over nothing. However, there's plenty out there who take the whole thing at face value because it fits their world view.

I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe. Especially on the internet, where people can say whatever without consequence just to troll others, I wouldn't take seeing a few people on the web being overzealous in their support of the Imperium to be indicative of a large movement of 40k enthusiasts to be pro-fascism or implementing the crazy stuff of 40k IRL.

I think there are vastly more people wanting to think that people genuinely relate to the IOM...Or believe its somehow anythign to do with reality (LOL) than there are people that actually do... I've yet to come across somebody that's not just troling, or simply coz thye are dumb enough that they think they would be a space marine..

The ones that seem to allude to this, seem to always think they'd fly space ships... Or be a space marine flying space ships.
Because as soon as you consider you vastly more likely to be born as some undesirable grunt in line for a good ol purging in the holy fire the prospect no longer appeals...
Its obviosuly nonsense..

Within the setting it makes perfect sense for BT to be doing their BT things..
I dont thinkt hey are jerks no more than a Tyranid trying to dissolve your face with acid so they can suck it up for breakfast is...

Hecaton wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe.

Well, you have people who think that behaving like the IoM is the right thing to do, considering the facts of the 40k universe. There are people like that all over this site.

Oh, no. Not people accepting the premise and setting of a fictional game for the purposes of the fiction and the game.
How dare they?

Voss wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe.

Well, you have people who think that behaving like the IoM is the right thing to do, considering the facts of the 40k universe. There are people like that all over this site.

Oh, no. Not people accepting the premise and setting of a fictional game for the purposes of the fiction and the game.
How dare they?

But the premise of the setting is that the Imperium isn't right, that it isn't just "a necessary evil" and is in fact an "unnecessary evil" because that's the grimdarkest of all universes. So behaving like the IOM in-universe is actually a worse option than the alternatives, but through sheer inertia, brutality, and bloody cruelty it persists (maybe an allegory for the 40k wargame system as well ). Behaving like the IOM is not the right thing to do, obviously.

Karak Norn Clansman's post gets it pretty correct.

Voss wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe.

Well, you have people who think that behaving like the IoM is the right thing to do, considering the facts of the 40k universe. There are people like that all over this site.

Oh, no. Not people accepting the premise and setting of a fictional game for the purposes of the fiction and the game.
How dare they?

There's a difference between accepting the physical premise of a story, such as the existence of space travel and it being the year 40 000, and accepting a particular interpretation of the ethical core of a story.

Voss wrote:
Oh, no. Not people accepting the premise and setting of a fictional game for the purposes of the fiction and the game.
How dare they?

Other people jumped in here, but accepting what the Imperium does as necessary and justified is not the premise of the setting.

 Grimskul wrote:

Well within the context of the fluff, the IoM has survived for 10 millenia, a mind-boggling amount of time, meaning that they are doing SOMETHING right or it would have fallen apart millenia earlier. .

soviets took massive, astounding, shocking casualties during Barbarossa. Often due to idiotic "no retreat" orders leading to hundreds of thousands of men being encircled when they could've withdrawn easily. Fortunately for Stalin, Russia could mobilize a metric ton more of people and keep throwing them into the grinder till Germans ran out of fuel and stalled for the winter. Very little that Soviet HQ did that year was "right", but Russia had the manpower, and the men had the tenacity and bravery, to be used by absolute imbeciles and still keep up the fight. Quantity has a quality of it's own. IoM is in the same position. Nothing they do is particularly good, they just have the bodies to counteract the results of those bad decisions for now. We know that the Imperium is steadily losing territory for the entire 10,000 years, with occasional Crusade reclaiming some of them. We know the Imperium cannot mobilize enough troops to fully eradicate either chaos, tyranids or orks without the other foes using that weakness to invade even further (the Roman Empire dilemma). So logically, without something changing, Imperium will be nibbled to death over the course of next 10 or 50 thousand years till it reaches the point where it's mass no longer offers the buffer for it's stupidity.

Cronch wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Well within the context of the fluff, the IoM has survived for 10 millenia, a mind-boggling amount of time, meaning that they are doing SOMETHING right or it would have fallen apart millenia earlier. .

soviets took massive, astounding, shocking casualties during Barbarossa. Often due to idiotic "no retreat" orders leading to hundreds of thousands of men being encircled when they could've withdrawn easily. Fortunately for Stalin, Russia could mobilize a metric ton more of people and keep throwing them into the grinder till Germans ran out of fuel and stalled for the winter. Very little that Soviet HQ did that year was "right", but Russia had the manpower, and the men had the tenacity and bravery, to be used by absolute imbeciles and still keep up the fight. Quantity has a quality of it's own. IoM is in the same position. Nothing they do is particularly good, they just have the bodies to counteract the results of those bad decisions for now. We know that the Imperium is steadily losing territory for the entire 10,000 years, with occasional Crusade reclaiming some of them. We know the Imperium cannot mobilize enough troops to fully eradicate either chaos, tyranids or orks without the other foes using that weakness to invade even further (the Roman Empire dilemma). So logically, without something changing, Imperium will be nibbled to death over the course of next 10 or 50 thousand years till it reaches the point where it's mass no longer offers the buffer for it's stupidity.

When you're dealing with a galaxy spanning empire with not only unsafe and unpredictable warp travel, and communications prone to being sent incredibly late or potentially warped, it's not surprising that the Imperium responds with brute-force tactics to safeguard their territory, because you don't know how much things have gotten worse by the time your armies arrive. I feel transposing IRL stuff like the Soviet Union into 40k is a mistake, because in our IRL history, we have actual options and alternatives to what kind of governments we can live under (in some cases, many are largely stuck in totalitarian countries like North Korea). The Cold War was largely an ideological one, not a conflict that is attempting to safeguard humanity's actual survival against species that actively seek our death and those that seek to enslave it in an existential sense like daemons.

In contrast, what other option is there for humanity in 40k? Pre-existing "progressive" enclaves like the Diasporex and Interex were wiped aside by the Great Crusade, meaning that they would easily fall to any significant Ork WAAAGH!'s that were raging during the GC, or dire threats that severely tested Imperial might even at the apex of the Crusade like the Rangdan. I think it's significant that in the 10,000 years the Imperium existed that there are no significant human enclaves that have effectively challenged the Imperium ideologically or as an alternative human polity.

Okay, let's be friends with xenos. Most xenos at this point actively hate humanity, if you're lucky enough to establish friendly ties with them, then what? Most xenos species are miniscule when compared to the masses of humanity, so don't offer much in the way of protection. Similarly, that means to scale any useful tech to a planet wide level would take an incredible amount of time, assuming you're even able to get it past the Mechanicus' theology regarding tech heresy. Other xenos will just take advantage of your good-will or enslave you, whether its through subversion or literal mind-control, it's been established to have happened in the past during the Age of Strife.

Okay, let's say you want to change the Imperium from within. Have you seen how long it takes for established power structures to change over time just on earth? We can barely get along with each other on one planet or even within the same nation, much less an intergalatic empire. Try magnifying that to a scale that we can't even imagine. In the case of rapid change, it is almost always tied with revolution of some sort, and the vast majority are not bloodless. You want to be more progressive in tech? Good luck with trying to overcome the monopoly with the Mechanicum. That's a huge civil war on your hands that will lock up endless supply lines as various Forge Worlds effectively boycott desperately needed tech and support for maintaining ships, supplies and weaponry that the Imperium needs to survive.

This is why 40k is grimdark the way it is, not that the Imperium is good in any real conventional sense, but they're the best bet humanity has got for our species survival, even as it's bloated monstrosity of an empire is tearing and bleeding at the seams.

but they're the best bet humanity has got for our species survival

Except no, if the entire Imperium just disappeared one day, and the only humans alive would be the few uncharted worlds and tau humans, human quality of life would go up right away by...well a lot.

And remember, Imperium is NOT humanity's best chance for survival. We, as outside observers have been told by GW since 2nd ed pretty much that it is doomed. Like the whole galaxy. The question is only who will be left standing, the Chaos or the Tyranids, or maybe (less likely) Orks.
Every single brutality, every single world burned to crisp by the Inquisition because they saw demons is pointless.

 Grimskul wrote:
In contrast, what other option is there for humanity in 40k? Pre-existing "progressive" enclaves like the Diasporex and Interex were wiped aside by the Great Crusade, meaning that they would easily fall to any significant Ork WAAAGH!'s that were raging during the GC, or dire threats that severely tested Imperial might even at the apex of the Crusade like the Rangdan. I think it's significant that in the 10,000 years the Imperium existed that there are no significant human enclaves that have effectively challenged the Imperium ideologically or as an alternative human polity.

That's like saying there was no significant Roman enclave that threatened the Roman Empire during its existence; there just aren't Romans outside of the Roman Empire. And after the Great Crusade, there just isn't a large enough human state to challenge the Imperium. It's a matter of might, at that point - again, the Imperium succeeding in spite of its bad decisions because of its massive amount of manpower and materiel, but its slowly losing because it's constitutionally incapable of making good decisions.

 Grimskul wrote:
Okay, let's be friends with xenos. Most xenos at this point actively hate humanity, if you're lucky enough to establish friendly ties with them, then what? Most xenos species are miniscule when compared to the masses of humanity, so don't offer much in the way of protection. Similarly, that means to scale any useful tech to a planet wide level would take an incredible amount of time, assuming you're even able to get it past the Mechanicus' theology regarding tech heresy. Other xenos will just take advantage of your good-will or enslave you, whether its through subversion or literal mind-control, it's been established to have happened in the past during the Age of Strife.

The more important side of things about being friendly with xenos is that if the Imperium had been doing it from the start, it likely wouldn't be in the position it's in now. The attitude of races like Eldar to the Imperium is just the Imperium's own malice and hatred reflected back at them. And that continues to the Immaterium; if the Imperium wasn't a relentless engine of hatred, oppression, and despair, the Warp would calm down some and warp entities wouldn't be so malicious. But the zealots that make up the Imperium would rather doom themselves than give up their mindless fanaticism.

 Grimskul wrote:
Okay, let's say you want to change the Imperium from within. Have you seen how long it takes for established power structures to change over time just on earth? We can barely get along with each other on one planet or even within the same nation, much less an intergalatic empire. Try magnifying that to a scale that we can't even imagine. In the case of rapid change, it is almost always tied with revolution of some sort, and the vast majority are not bloodless. You want to be more progressive in tech? Good luck with trying to overcome the monopoly with the Mechanicum. That's a huge civil war on your hands that will lock up endless supply lines as various Forge Worlds effectively boycott desperately needed tech and support for maintaining ships, supplies and weaponry that the Imperium needs to survive.

All you're saying is that the Imperium is nigh-impossible to get off of its doomed, unnecessary, and immoral path, not that it was the right one to get on.

 Grimskul wrote:
This is why 40k is grimdark the way it is, not that the Imperium is good in any real conventional sense, but they're the best bet humanity has got for our species survival, even as it's bloated monstrosity of an empire is tearing and bleeding at the seams.

You misunderstand the thesis of the setting. The Imperium is immoral, because it goes far beyond necessity to pointless cruelty.

Cronch wrote:

but they're the best bet humanity has got for our species survival

Except no, if the entire Imperium just disappeared one day, and the only humans alive would be the few uncharted worlds and tau humans, human quality of life would go up right away by...well a lot.

And remember, Imperium is NOT humanity's best chance for survival. We, as outside observers have been told by GW since 2nd ed pretty much that it is doomed. Like the whole galaxy. The question is only who will be left standing, the Chaos or the Tyranids, or maybe (less likely) Orks.
Every single brutality, every single world burned to crisp by the Inquisition because they saw demons is pointless.

Your first sentence really contradicts yourself, since the Imperium falling apart would not lead to a sudden increase in human quality of life. In fact, it would arguably get worse. Now the overarching structure keeping the human worlds intact are gone, and it's the horrors of Old Night again. No more reliable interstellar travel with the loss of the Astronomicon, the Hive Cities will literally starve to death outside of cannibalism with the shipments of Agri Worlds being organized by the Administratum. No military reinforcement to help ongoing warzones and the few ones that aren't overrun will basically be paralyzed. No more black ships to handle the psyker tithe will also increase the likelihood of daemonic incursions. I don't see how living in literal hell is anywhere better than being under the Imperium.

We already see an aspect of this with Imperium Nihilus, where they're barely holding onto a semblance of order even with reinforcements from the other half of the Imperium.

Since you used the initial comparison, what you are proposing is saying that the US should have escalated the Cold War and nuked the Soviet Union so that way we could have a higher quality of life overall from humans since then we wouldn't have to worry about totalitarian regimes from the USSR while disregarding the nuclear fallout and the countless lives lost because of it.

The whole point of 40k is the Imperium being humanity's attempt to fight against the dying of the light. Using brutal measures to ensure survival does not mean it's good, I am not arguing that, but it is extremely dumb to disregard the Imperium as the main barrier between mankind as a competitive species and effective extinction.

The point is that, while perhaps the Imperium is the only thing working NOW, it was certainly not the only way it could've gone.

Imperium has a ton of inertia that keeps it going, but if the Imperium had been better from the very beginning, it's fully possible that humanity would've been in a much better place.

Cronch wrote:
So logically, without something changing, Imperium will be nibbled to death over the course of next 10 or 50 thousand years till it reaches the point where it's mass no longer offers the buffer for it's stupidity.

Keep in mind that the broad purpose of the Imperium is to be a buffer against being nibbled to death.

Literally nibbled. Humanity is an emerging psychic race on a course to become more so in the fullness of time, the whole purpose of the Imperium and the Emperors crusade was to try and create conditions whereby humans survived through this transition to reach a point similar to the eldar - strong enough that they were no longer preyed upon by the warp, no matter what it cost to get there.

Rosebuddy wrote:

Voss wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I mean I don't think there's anything to really suggest that there's people who believe that in this thread outside of the context of the 40K universe.

Well, you have people who think that behaving like the IoM is the right thing to do, considering the facts of the 40k universe. There are people like that all over this site.

Oh, no. Not people accepting the premise and setting of a fictional game for the purposes of the fiction and the game.
How dare they?

There's a difference between accepting the physical premise of a story, such as the existence of space travel and it being the year 40 000, and accepting a particular interpretation of the ethical core of a story.

...no. No there isn't.
If either makes you want to reject the story, that's fine. But the premise as a whole is something for a reader to accept or reject, even if you want to call it a 'particular interpretation' to make that disassociation from what's actually on the page easier.

You don't get to say it isn't about a brutal regime any more than you get to say its about Rome in 2000 BC. The nastiness of the Imperium is something people have to accept because it isn't changing, just like they have to accept it isn't about real warfare.
Nor do people get to call others 'fascists' because they enjoy reading the material.

Voss wrote:


...no. No there isn't.

Uh... yes there is. Even if the authors were presenting the Imperium as morally right (which they aren't), we could critique the authors.

Also, you can enjoy the setting all you want, I know I do, but if you think the Imperium is laudable you either aren't reading very closely or have a very poor moral sensibility.

The real crazy gak is that I read Helsreach and I don't remember literally any of this.

The Imperium is neither required for human survival nor morally right.

John Boyd said that "war is fought for survival on our terms". His point is that war isn't just about survival of a nation or state or mankind, but that it is about survival on our terms, or rather survival in a way that benefits us.

I would argue that part of the grimdarkness of the setting is that many of the enslaved humans would probably be better off dead than in Imperial clutches. The Imperium guarantees survival, but it isn't on mankind's terms. It isn't free, it isn't kind, it doesn't really have any redeeming qualities at all except possibly that you can lie low and MAYBE avoid attention.

Survival is irrelevant. What is important is surviving in a way that matters, and humanity in 40k doesn't meet that criterion.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The real crazy gak is that I read Helsreach and I don't remember literally any of this.

As has been noted - most of the assertions in the OP are wrong or actually something that other characters express.

The Imperium is often a dark, horrible place - thats part of the setting.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Imperium is neither required for human survival nor morally right.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Imperium guarantees survival

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Survival is irrelevant.

"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true, and horrifying to know."

A.T. wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Imperium is neither required for human survival nor morally right.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Imperium guarantees survival

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Survival is irrelevant.

"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true, and horrifying to know."

LOL. But I think he was responding the the first point/assertion, not stating it. I could be very wrong though.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
LOL. But I think he was responding the the first point/assertion, not stating it. I could be very wrong though.

Well it was all the same post.
Possibly the most relevant point though - "Survival is irrelevant. What is important is surviving in a way that matters, and humanity in 40k doesn't meet that criterion."

The general thrust of the Emperors plan is that what matters is not the survival of humanity as it currently is, but the humanity that might be - psykers strong enough to resist the warp gods.

There are alternatives as humanity could rid itself of psychic potential or surrender itself to the whims of the warp and either option could create an existance less 'grimdark' than the current one, but ultimately represent humanity deciding to fade away into the night. Choosing that what matters is here and now, not those who follow.

How you interpret that depends on how you see the Emperors motives - “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit.” ... or perhaps someone willing to perpetuate the misery and suffering of countless trillions across the ages to create his ideal world.