Black Templars are kinda....jerks

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**Hecaton**

A.T. wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
LOL. But I think he was responding the the first point/assertion, not stating it. I could be very wrong though.
Well it was all the same post.
Possibly the most relevant point though - "Survival is irrelevant. What is important is surviving in a way that matters, and humanity in 40k doesn't meet that criterion."

The general thrust of the Emperors plan is that what matters is not the survival of humanity as it currently is, but the humanity that might be - psykers strong enough to resist the warp gods.

There are alternatives as humanity could rid itself of psychic potential or surrender itself to the whims of the warp and either option could create an existance less 'grimdark' than the current one, but ultimately represent humanity deciding to fade away into the night. Choosing that what matters is here and now, not those who follow.

How you interpret that depends on how you see the Emperors motives - “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit.” ... or perhaps someone willing to perpetuate the misery and suffering of countless trillions across the ages to create his ideal world.

The general thrust of the Emperor's plan seems to be "Humanity shall have no gods before me" even as much as he tormented Lorgar over that.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Hecaton wrote:
A.T. wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
LOL. But I think he was responding the the first point/assertion, not stating it. I could be very wrong though.
Well it was all the same post.
Possibly the most relevant point though - "Survival is irrelevant. What is important is surviving in a way that matters, and humanity in 40k doesn't meet that criterion."

The general thrust of the Emperors plan is that what matters is not the survival of humanity as it currently is, but the humanity that might be - psykers strong enough to resist the warp gods.

There are alternatives as humanity could rid itself of psychic potential or surrender itself to the whims of the warp and either option could create an existance less 'grimdark' than the current one, but ultimately represent humanity deciding to fade away into the night. Choosing that what matters is here and now, not those who follow.

How you interpret that depends on how you see the Emperors motives - “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit.” ... or perhaps someone willing to perpetuate the misery and suffering of countless trillions across the ages to create his ideal world.

The general thrust of the Emperor's plan seems to be "Humanity shall have no gods before me" even as much as he tormented Lorgar over that.

I disagree. The last thing the emperor wanted was to be revered as a god. He fought the unification wars to stop religious wars.

**Hecaton**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I disagree. The last thing the emperor wanted was to be revered as a god. He fought the unification wars to stop religious wars.

And Kim Jong-Un doesn't claim to be a god either... but listen to the stories that North Koreans tell about him and it's clear he's given supernatural significance. The IoM under the Emperor, even before the Ecclesiarchy, was about as enlightened as the DPRK.

**Argive**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
A.T. wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
LOL. But I think he was responding the the first point/assertion, not stating it. I could be very wrong though.
Well it was all the same post.
Possibly the most relevant point though - "Survival is irrelevant. What is important is surviving in a way that matters, and humanity in 40k doesn't meet that criterion."

The general thrust of the Emperors plan is that what matters is not the survival of humanity as it currently is, but the humanity that might be - psykers strong enough to resist the warp gods.

There are alternatives as humanity could rid itself of psychic potential or surrender itself to the whims of the warp and either option could create an existance less 'grimdark' than the current one, but ultimately represent humanity deciding to fade away into the night. Choosing that what matters is here and now, not those who follow.

How you interpret that depends on how you see the Emperors motives - “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit.” ... or perhaps someone willing to perpetuate the misery and suffering of countless trillions across the ages to create his ideal world.

The general thrust of the Emperor's plan seems to be "Humanity shall have no gods before me" even as much as he tormented Lorgar over that.

I disagree. The last thing the emperor wanted was to be revered as a god. He fought the unification wars to stop religious wars.

From the HH things I read so far its pretty clear Emperors end goal is apotheosis coz what else is there once hes conquered the gaalxy and worked out the web way for humans ? It was just too soon when logar did it so he had to step in and appear he is stil about that secular truth. Eradicate all religions so that one religion can step in afterwards without opposition. Makes perfect sense.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

1. KJU and KJI both claimed to be literal gods. They wanted basian authority, where the church could not be above the state, but they also wanted god worship. To say otherwise is clearly a misreading of history.

2. The emperor didn't want total authority, and he didn't want a church. He realized he couldn't have one without the other though, and so allowed it to form. HOWEVER, he basically forbade the Word Bearers from doing Word Bearer stuff, aka spreading the faith.

This may be the most historically similair that 40k could be to us. The church or the established essence of religion is the sole cause of every terrible suffering made by man in Humanity's existence.

**Hecaton**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
1. KJU and KJI both claimed to be literal gods. They wanted basian authority, where the church could not be above the state, but they also wanted god worship. To say otherwise is clearly a misreading of history.

That's not my understanding of what goes on over there.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
2. The emperor didn't want total authority, and he didn't want a church. He realized he couldn't have one without the other though, and so allowed it to form. HOWEVER, he basically forbade the Word Bearers from doing Word Bearer stuff, aka spreading the faith.

The Emperor definitely wanted total authority.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This may be the most historically similair that 40k could be to us. The church or the established essence of religion is the sole cause of every terrible suffering made by man in Humanity's existence.

Even at my most strident periods of atheism, I'd still say you're incredibly wrong.

**Voss**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
1. KJU and KJI both claimed to be literal gods. They wanted basian authority, where the church could not be above the state, but they also wanted god worship. To say otherwise is clearly a misreading of history.

That's a bizarre mishmash of realworld politics, customs, and the differences between religion, veneration, philosophy and spirituality. I don't think you're correct, but its also not appropriate to this site.

2. The emperor didn't want total authority, and he didn't want a church. He realized he couldn't have one without the other though, and so allowed it to form. HOWEVER, he basically forbade the Word Bearers from doing Word Bearer stuff, aka spreading the faith.

Eh. I'd argue that he absolutely did want total authority, and you're hinging a lot of the rest on the unreliable narrator problem.

This may be the most historically similair that 40k could be to us. The church or the established essence of religion is the sole cause of every terrible suffering made by man in Humanity's existence.

This is objectively not true. People do terrible things all the time that don't stem from religion (and other terrible things that do), but there's no basis for it to be the 'sole cause.'
See crimes of passion, or diseases from working around/with hazardous materials. Generations of coal miners didn't get various lung diseases from religion.
Its also not an appropriate line of discussion here.