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I'm no expert on DG but I think this describes the army comp more or less as you have said it? Maybe +/- a few options = 50pts ?.
You'd have to shave 250pts from this list in order to fit a knight.
A knight rampager is 415pts. There is no way hes fitting all that in at 2k pts just looking at the numbers.
Interested to know your thought OP.
have those untis seen a points increase since the codex first came out?
They did, but the points values in the spoiler seem correct for the current game. So yeah depending on what Knight we are talking about (an armiger?) he should not have the points for one ina 2K game. And again, 2 flails in an 8 man squad is illegal for Terminators.
He mentions fist so I figured thunderstrike gauntlet.
Could be an armiger... but paying 3cp for one armiger seems like self gimp lol.
Would like to see the actual list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/06 01:23:07
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
So I went and put together a list based on the previous list as well as the OPs described list that does seem to fit, under the 2000pts, and I believe is actually legal. Of course, to fit it under the 2000pts only a few models have wargear beyond their base loadout. Please feel free to double check and point out if something is an illegal option as I don't play DG and am only working off 2nd/3rd hand knowledge and BattleScribe. In the interest of simplicity, I will only be listing optional wargear. If a model doesn't have wargear in this list, assume it is just base options.
HQ
1x Daemon Prince of Nurgle 1x Malignant Plaguecaster
On BattleScribe this list comes to 100 PL and 1953pts. That fits everything I think and leaves 47pts to allocate to wargear, relics, traits, etc.
I do not yet have a complete grasp of Detachments variants and I have no Lord of War models ready to play, so I'm not entirely clear on where the big guy should go. For this I just placed the War Dog Moirax in a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment since that sounded correct to me by name alone. Whether or not that's correct, the points and PL should be correct I assume.
Edit: I feel I should mention that I placed models in as few units as possible. However, splitting the Clultists and Terminators into 2 separate 5-man squads each only changes the PL to 109 and does not affect the points according to BattleScribe. Also, I too feel that taking an extra Detachment for a single model seems... unwise, even given my lack of complete understanding.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/06 04:26:24
That looks correct to me, probably just missing a second squad of cultists or marine. Pretty much an average TAC death guard list with a knight thrown in for fun.
It's also worth noting that "DG lose stuff for souping" isn't exactly true - there is no army-wide rule (yet) and the legion trait is completely worthless, so losing it doesn't matter at all. The only reason to have "pure" detachments are the plague fleets, which don't even affect many units. Basically you just need one detachment of DG to unlock stratagems and can mix everything else freely.
As for the OP, I know that DG are a tough nut to crack for harlequins, because mine yet have to lose a single game against them. From my point of view, Harlequin players are use to the glass cannon approach to hit things fast and hard so they can't hit back. This simply doesn't work against DG, many of their tools which inevitably shred other army's units have chance to bounce off DG units and leave their vulnerable infantry and characters exposed. On top of that, DG can generate lots of mortal wounds everywhere, which is a major weakness for harlequins. Slamming an army of clowns head first into an army of DG is a guaranteed death sentence for them.
So, considering how competitive players do not seem to struggle with DG at all, it's most likely a matter of tactics. DG are slow moving and almost all of their weapons have 24" reach, with their most effective range being around 12" (5" movement+7" ability range). If you stay out of range and only commit to fights that you are guaranteed to win without losses, you should be able to outmaneuver them without taking the full power of their guns and abilities.
Anyways, that's my analysis from curb-stomping harlequins regularly.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/06 09:57:48
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
So i'm seeing some confusion due to my description of his list. Idk a lot about deathguard names and maybe I mispoke but I do know what the models looked like and how many units there were. So heres what I know for a fact:
Definitely a regular knight for sure (not an armiger) and he only had melee weapons (maybe a little peashooter gun but im not sure on that)
Definitely 3 tank things (looking at pictures on GW, they were plague burst crawlers) they had flamers and mortars
Definitely 3 blighthaulers in a group (im chalking my loss up to not focusing on these guys)
A Psyker guy (The model looked like he was shooting a big puffy cloud out of his hand?)
Another Character (I honestly don't remember what the model looked like, but he gave some kind of grenade buff that allowed all models to throw a grenade rather than just one?)
a single unit of about 10 cultists (small based models about the size of my troupes but shorter models)
1 unit of 8 large based marine looking guys (These had 2 flails, idk what the models were called)
1 unit of ~5 marine looking guys (mainly just guns, I think they had something they could overcharge?)
IDK any weapon/wargear choices affecting points or anything, I just know these were DEFINITELY the models I went against
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heres my next attempt (using Admech) We usually pick armies without telling each other in order to prevent countering so I'm trying to build for all around good rather than to combat specific armies. Critiques STRONGLY welcome lol
Admech/Mars/1990 12 CP
HQ 1x Caul
1x Daedalosus
1x Dominus (WL: Divinations of the magos/ Relic: Autocaduceus)
Troops 3x 3 Kataphron Destroyers (grav cannons and flamers)
Elites 1x 10 Fulgurite Electropriests
Heavy Support 1x 6 Robots (Fully Shooting)
2x Dunecrawlers (icarus array)
Transport 1x Dunerider (for electropriests)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/06 13:56:09
LeBattery wrote: Definitely a regular knight for sure (not an armiger) and he only had melee weapons (maybe a little peashooter gun but im not sure on that)
It's a giant murder machine that will just wreck anything it touches. It's also likely to be one of the easiest things to kill in that army, so you should focus it down with melta and hayware ASAP.
Definitely 3 tank things (looking at pictures on GW, they were plague burst crawlers) they had flamers and mortars
Those plague burst crawlers are equipped with plague spitters, a plague mortar (ignores LoS) and a hull gun, usually a heavy slugger. They are one of the most durable units in the game, unless you are using massed melta guns or haywire against them, don't bother. If you charge them when your opponent has CP left, those flamers are going to melt your clowns in overwatch.
Definitely 3 blighthaulers in a group (im chalking my loss up to not focusing on these guys)
Another very durable unit, but this one is dangerous as well since the multi-melta buff. The important thing to know about these guys is that they get +1 to hit for having three models in a unit, so killing a single one will already reduce their damage drastically. You also get -1 to hit when you attack them in melee, so you should try to kill them through shooting. Be aware that despite not having auto-hitting weapons their overwatch might be quite deadly as well.
A Psyker guy (The model looked like he was shooting a big puffy cloud out of his hand?)
Spoiler:
That's a malignant plaguecaster. He can cast two powers from a solid but not vastly powerful DG discipline. I have found him to be extremely useful against harlequins as he deals a mortal wound to the closest enemy unit within 7" whenever he rolls a 7+ for a psychic test. Combined with smite and curse of the leper he can easily wipe out an entire troupe in one psychic phase. He also is no slouch in combat, so make sure he can't fight back when you charge him.
Another Character (I honestly don't remember what the model looked like, but he gave some kind of grenade buff that allowed all models to throw a grenade rather than just one?)
That's a biologus putrefier, one of three parts of the DG grenade combo.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Death-Guard-Biologus-Putrifier-2017 Essentially he has an aura that makes plague grenades S4, 2 damage and deal mortal wounds on to wound rolls of 6+. This gets stacked with a stratagem that allows a unit to throw any number of grenades (1CP) and VotLW for +1 to wound to cause absolutely insane amounts of damage. It's also possible to increase the range of those grenades by 6" with another stratagem. This can be used in overwatch, I've evaporated unit of
Outside of that it's only worth noting that he has a 3" pistol with d6 damage and explodes like a vehicle, regular plague marine otherwise.
a single unit of about 10 cultists (small based models about the size of my troupes but shorter models)
These guys really serve no other purpose but sitting on objectives.
1 unit of 8 large based marine looking guys (These had 2 flails, idk what the models were called)
Since he would be missing a third troops unit and because blightlords can't have two flails at 8, those were probably plague marines, most likely riding in the rhino. Not an uncommon strategy.
Plague marines are not hard to kill, just keep in mind that they are T5 - so anything but a harlequin’s caress wounds them on 5+.
It's very important that when charging a unit with flails, you need to kill them to the last marine. If the flail survives, it gets 2d3 attacks against your unit and every failed save kills two harlequins.
1 unit of ~5 marine looking guys (mainly just guns, I think they had something they could overcharge?)
Plague marines with plasma guns. Just like the guys with the flails, but more shooting oriented. Plasma is nothing to be afraid of as harlequin player, but the unit still can pump out 10 shots at 18" that can kill your expensive models, and they have a number of stratagems to make them more efficient in combat and/or shooting. Make sure to kill enough when charging them, overkill is better than losing models to a plague marine champion punching them.
I hope this helps you understand your opponent's army better, since outmaneuvering your opponent is essential to beating him. Without knowing what his stuff does, you can't make the right decisions.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Based on the more detailed information and Jidmahs assessment, it seems highly likely that the "8 large based marine looking guys" with two flails are current sculpt plague marines. Probably a single current sculpt seven man squad with an extra ETB DG from a random source thrown in, while the other "~5 marine looking guys" with mostly boltguns and a plasma gun is probably a collection of older generation DG as they would be based to the smaller size Heroic Scale standard and would also appear smaller being produced before the recent upscale to 32mm.
The new list would be thus:
HQ
1x Daemon Prince of Nurgle
1x Malignant Plaguecaster
Again, with unlisted wargear to be assumed as base options, this list is still legal at 100 PL, 1947pts, & -6CP (assuming the Chaos Knight is in a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment). This leaves 53 points for any desired additional options and/or an extra DG Marine or two.
Edit: While I don't know if this is actually a legal option for DG Marines, if you give every model including the Champion in the 5-man squad a Plasma Gun as is potentially suggested, that would bring the total points cost to 1987pts. Still under the 2000pt limit with 13pt extra for whatever junk you can fit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/06 18:55:49
Plague marines can have 3 plasma guns in total, the daemon prince most likely has wings and either a pair of talons or a sword. Outside of that, most death guard units don't have any relevant options.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: Plague marines can have 3 plasma guns in total, the daemon prince most likely has wings and either a pair of talons or a sword. Outside of that, most death guard units don't have any relevant options.
Noted. I will likely face DG soon as they seem to be a new favorite army for easy-to-learn competitive (and their 9th codex is confirmed), so I'll probably end up facing them a lot myself when things open up.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: I still cant believe hes getting a Rampager in there.. :O
It certainly does seem pretty crazy, but hey, if I shelled out for a model that expensive and took the time and effort to build and paint it, I'd try to shove it into every game possible no matter how silly.
I actually might have this problem in the future as I bought a Baneblade back in 5th and it's still NoS... Bought it cuz the store was offering a 25% discount on orders through them and never built it cuz I'm afraid of ruining it with my inexperience. I am partially glad as I didn't know about magnetizing options at the time, but I'm too busy now for such a big kit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/10 05:04:48
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
the first thing i would offer is to pick a list and keep playing that list. I know its super tempting to switch stuff in and out, and to try all kinds of new things (its what I think is most fun about the game) but if you are struggling to win, and you want to win and get a bit better, then I would settle on a list, and just play that list for a while. Not only does it make it easier to get everything painted, but it will help you understand a bit more of the nuance involved in your list.
In Warhammer 40k, I am of the opinion that how you play is more important, than what you play. That's not to say their arent reasonable restrictions on that statement, there obviously and certainly are, but learning to play what you have, learning the stratagems, how to protect your models, and when to strike, things like that are more important in my mind than making sure you have min-maxed the army for peak efficiency. I will also offer a few tips that helped me get better (though be careful, I am no "professional". I have won a few local events of 12 or so players, but that likely has as much to do about the size of the pond I'm in than it does my own capability)
so here goes and I hope they help.
1. not everything that costs more points is more relevant to the game your playing. if your opponent's army is having trouble putting troops on objectives, then don't worry about the knight at first. kill the troops. then hold your ground to keep those objectives. use the movement shenanigans and other stratagems to keep your stuff alive to score points. Situational relevance and situational target priority are more important. focus on scoring points.
2. not everything has to do work on turn one. in fact, a lot of times, positioning to score and push off your opponents on turn two is equally, if not more so important than making sure you get an alpha.
3. terrain matters. use it. Understand how to use the terrain to protect your guys, especially those squishy harlequins. yes, they are scary as hell, but if they get caught in the open, they are going to die. they can hit like a mack truck, hauling a tank, dropped from orbit from a space shuttle that just sling-shotted around the sun to travel back in time, but if they cant survive to get there because you have put them in a bad position, then all of that hitting power is useless.
4. don't take the obvious bait. Warhammer 40,000, i think, is best viewed as a chess game with a random number modifier. now, obviously, that's an oversimplification, but it does, or at least it did help me learn how to use my units to trade for other pieces. If I think about units and positioning, as well as target priority in terms of "what am I giving up to get" instead of "must get work done now" I found I did a lot better. A good case in point was a game I played the other night with a friend. I made a decision to put forward on an objective a unit of blood claws in a rhino. My opponent then had to make a decision to deal with them. He opted to blow up the rhino and then moved up to bolter fire the blood claws to death. he killed like 6 or 7 of them. But in moving up that unit of terminators, he put them in range of my wulfen, who then killed them, and he didn't have the immediate firepower to pull the unit of wulfen off because they were behind LOS blocking terrain after consolidating towards the closest model. Obviously, there are a bunch of mitigating factors into this, and It's normally not quite so cut and dry, but to provide a point of reference, it's an example of trading pieces for best effect. I gave up around 108 points of blood claws, and he gave up around 200 in terminators. When I took his terminators off the table, he couldn't do much to the wulfen, and killed 2 of them, leaving 8 of them alive. the next turn, the wulfen moved and ate a dreadnought, and afterward, they finally died. in the meantime though, he stopped picking on the blood claws, and I kept scoring points. I traded them for a unit of terminators, a dreadnought, and some victory points. It was a worthwhile trade.
5. the last thing I would offer is that you need to know your army inside and out. backwards and forward. Know your stratagems (even the ones you think you'll never use) their cost, and try to kind of roughly plan what stratagems you are going to use and on roughly what turn and budget your resources.
Keep in mind, I'm no expert, not by a LOONNGGG shot, but these are the things I normally talk to my friends about when we meet for testing and tuning our lists or just playing to have fun. I'm also not a massively competitive player, and I like going to events just to play, and sometimes I get lucky, but I don't have a super impressive track record or anything. I just like to play. So stay focused, learn your army, play the same army time and again, budget your resources, play to score, don't play to kill, and you'll likely do just fine.
and as an aside:
Harlequins are one of those armies that if I see them across the table from me, I know that it is either going to be one hell of a hard game, or it's going to be a cakewalk.
That's not because of the army, not at all. It's because harlequins are one of the most difficult armies in the game to play, they take a long time to understand how to use them, and specifically when to hold back and when to go in. They are difficult to understand when you shouldn't go in and alpha and when you should, because they are so mobile you feel like you can be anywhere whenever you want, and that's a deceptive ability sometimes. It's going to take a while to learn them. once you do though...
well, there's a reason why they are either super hard games where if, and that's one hell of an if, I win, I know it's because I brought my A-game and nothing less (and probably a little luck).
Eldar- 4436 pts
I am partially glad as I didn't know about magnetizing options at the time, but I'm too busy now for such a big kit. 