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Hello,

I was reading the mission setup steps for matched play and I have a question. The steps outline by the book look like you decide mission, then attacker/defender, then the deployment zone, and then, you declare every deep striker and transport. After that, deployment starts. Space Marine Combat Squad states that before you start deploying you can split units. Now my question is, when does the split occur and how dose it interact with the previous transport designation step.

Example: I have a 10 man tactical squad and a Razorback. Can the 10 man be split into two 5 man squads and then one be put inside the transport or not? Because right now as I look at it you might not be able because the declare transport step happens before deploying and Combat Squads activates at the start of the Deployment step. But at the same time, the transport designation step is before deploying any models so which way would it work.

I was having a discussion about this on Discord.

In short, it's about as clear as mud.

The rules for deployment suggest you cannot do this, but the rules for Combat Squads and the Deathwatch Index suggest you can.

Declaring which units are in Transport is before deployment. You do Combat Squads before deployment. I don't see the issue

It sounds like you actively want to put one combat squad inside the transport, and have the other deploy normally?
It seems pretty clear to me that you can't do that.

Combat squads, page 125 of the new Marine Codex:
"At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up"

Deployment very specifically happens in step 11 of the mission instructions, so you have to split squads at the very beginning of that step.
In other words, the order goes:

- step 10: declare your reserves and transports
- step 11(a): perform combat squads
- step 11(b): normal deployment

Something worth noting - you are allowed to have more than one unit in a transport - so there's nothing to stop you combat squadding the unit anyway and having both halves ride. Sounds like that's not what you want, though.

 Super Ready wrote:

Something worth noting - you are allowed to have more than one unit in a transport - so there's nothing to stop you combat squadding the unit anyway and having both halves ride. Sounds like that's not what you want, though.

Which is why his example was a Razorback which has a capacity of 6 <CHAPTER> INFANTRY.

Pretty much what I used to do in 8th was run two razorbacks with 5 marines each. Seems that for now the way to get that is to leave the Razorbacks empty with the half squads less than 9 inches away to run into them and then drive away into the sunset. This to me looks and sounds ridiculous. Wanted to see what every one else thought.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

Something worth noting - you are allowed to have more than one unit in a transport - so there's nothing to stop you combat squadding the unit anyway and having both halves ride. Sounds like that's not what you want, though.

Which is why his example was a Razorback which has a capacity of 6 <CHAPTER> INFANTRY.

Ohhhhh, good point, how did I miss that? Yup, that squad is not getting in that transport I'm afraid.
...I'm curious as to the exact example, though. Normally I would suggest if you genuinely want to do this with Troops, just take the squads as 2x 5-man slots to begin with...?

I realise this isn't as useful for, say, Elites or Heavy Support where the slots are at a premium.

I like running my tacticals as 10 mans for thematic reasons in my 4th company only army list. Back in 8th I could bring two Razorbacks for more Lascannon dakka and split one 10 man into 2 5 mans and send them their merry way. The way I was using it in 9th before realizing this was splitting the 10 man to get one 5 man of only bolters and the only 5 man with both special weapons and the heavy one rolling around in the two Razorbacks. One squad would go and fight it out while the other could do actions without loss of special/heavy weapons.
Can I run them as 5 man? Yeah and it it more competitive, but it is a bummer for fluff. Something else to add to the list that contains my poor Tartaros Terminators and the Captain in Cataphractii armor.

Ahh, I see. Well, it may be worth having a chat about pre-game. While it's against RAW, I certainly wouldn't have a problem allowing you to do this because what you gain in flexibility, you lose in getting an extra "free" Sergeant.

Is there anything stating that you have to declare what's going in each transport in whole units?

For example, can you not:

1: Declare 5 marines going in razorback and 5 are not
2: Combat squad marines
3: Deploy as declared

As far as I can see, this isn't illegal? It's only illegal to place more models in a transport than its capacity, not to declare them - so you would make an illegal move if you did this then didn't combat-squad.

You have to declare which units are going into the transport, not which models. At the point you make that declaration, that unit is still at 10 models, so you have to declare either all 10 are going in, or none of them are. Otherwise you're splitting the unit for deployment with no permission (bearing in mind that Combat Squads doesn't apply yet).

First, I will say that I agree with an earlier post that the rule is "clear as mud" and say that it really should be clarified in the FAQ. That said, I disagree with the consensus here.

The rule for Combat Squads states: "At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up, if this unit contains...". I am using the Chapter Approved Tactical Deployment Mission Pack, cause it is the most recent thing I have access to, but there is no clearly defined "start of deployment" in the steps. I get that step 13 is labeled as "Deploy Armies" (it's step 11 in the core rule book), but that is not necessarily the "start of deployment". This is where the rule is unclear. Semantically, there is nothing saying that step 12 (step 10 in the core rule book) isn't part of "deployment". Keep in mind there is a step called "fight" in the fight phase, but if you are allowed to fight through some ability, you get to pile in and consolidate as well, neither of which are outlined in the "fight" step.

Reserve abilities like Death From Above (what the Terminators would use to deep strike after being split in two) have this wording: "During deployment, if every model in this unit has this ability, then you can set up this unit high in the skies instead of setting it up on the battlefield." This is done in step 12 Declare Reserves and Transports, which according to the Death From Above ability should be considered "during deployment", which would now imply that "deployment" does indeed include both steps 12 and 13. If "deployment" includes step 12, then Combat Squads happens at least as early as the start of step 12, which is before you decide who is embarking on transports.

The bolded text from the two rules are my final point. Combat Squads clearly states that you choose to split the unit before you set up any units. The Reserve abilities like Death From Above happen at the same time as embarking on transports and they also set units up. Since Combat Squads explicitly states that it happens before you set these units up, it seems only logical to me that it also happens before other things that happen at the same time. The fact that it doesn't explicitly state that it does happen before you declare transports (or at least clearly define where "deployment" begins in the pre-battle steps) is why I say it should have a clarification in the FAQ. If you are playing me or in an event I am judging, you can split your units and put them into different transports. But, I would talk to your opponent or event organizer before the game (or before you build your list, if you can) to get their interpretation first, just to avoid any conflicts in-game.

You split a 10-man squad into Combat Squads before any deployment takes place, for either side - “Before any models are deployed at the start of the game”. You split before your opponent places anything too, so you can’t pull any gotchas on them.

No problem to then put those two Combat Squads in different places, transports etc as they are now two independent units.

Much to my annoyance,
it appears that you can't split a unit and put half on the board and half in deepstrike either, becuase step 10 (matched play) is declare reserves and transports. Step 11 (matched play) is deploy.
However, why is it illegal to write down "I put the three guys iwth the sargeant into the repulsor, and the other three in deepstrike" as long as when that takes effect (ie, you deploy) you have in fact got the requisite divided unit of 3 and 3 rather than one of six? It would make illegal anything where you DIDNT split the unit, sure, but you have essentially declared in writing a binding intentino to do so. Why would that be illegal? In other words, why is it necessary to have the units on hand when you write that down, rather than when you deploy?

You can only split a unit when it has its maximum number of models.

 p5freak wrote:
You can only split a unit when it has its maximum number of models.

Uh-huh, and some units’ max size is six. Stop thinking only Firstborn can Combat Squad.

What you have here is a luxury problem and a corner case. Non marine armies do not have combat squads. SM will just have to live under this injustice.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Much to my annoyance,
it appears that you can't split a unit and put half on the board and half in deepstrike either, becuase step 10 (matched play) is declare reserves and transports. Step 11 (matched play) is deploy.
However, why is it illegal to write down "I put the three guys iwth the sargeant into the repulsor, and the other three in deepstrike" as long as when that takes effect (ie, you deploy) you have in fact got the requisite divided unit of 3 and 3 rather than one of six? It would make illegal anything where you DIDNT split the unit, sure, but you have essentially declared in writing a binding intentino to do so. Why would that be illegal? In other words, why is it necessary to have the units on hand when you write that down, rather than when you deploy?

Except if you're Deathwatch, because it explicitly calls out that you can have 5 Veterans and 5 Terminators, split them, and have the Terminators deep strike.

Interestingly, deployment is not defined in the rules nor is it used in the scenario rules. It is therefore an assumption on everyone's part when deployment begins. Could be step 11 (Deploy Armies). Could be Step 10 (Declare Reserves and Transports). Could be Step 9 (Choose Deployment Zone). We will need to read the tea leaves until GW gives a definitive statement on the issue.

Right now, we seem to have one from Codex Supplement Death Watch that allows a unit to use Combat Squads and put one of the resulting unit in Reinforcements while the other is not. That indicates that Step 10 might be the better place to say deployment begins.

However from RAW before deployment would occur at any point prior to deployment exact step is not specified so you have free choice on when but with a you have to do it by x clause. I see no reason why you couldn't do it at the muster your army step if you chose (although tactically this might not be optimal)

If a model deploys at step 10 eg it was put into reserves it would need to combat squad prior to step 10

Hypotheticaly take transports out of it and think about a single unit of devestators being placed in tactical reserves combat squaded

They are deploying at step 10 so combat squad declaration must happen before 10

Ergo combat squadding can happen before 10

So in reality

Sequence goes
Step 9
Last point to declare Combat squadding for units if units are being placed in reserve or transports on either army
Step 10
Last point for declaring Combat squadding for units if no transports or reserves

The distinction occurs because once a model has been deployed e.g. in reserve or deepstrike or transport you can no longer declare more combat squads

U02dah4 wrote:
However from RAW before deployment would occur at any point prior to deployment exact step is not specified so you have free choice on when but with a you have to do it by x clause.

RAW is "At the start of deployment.....". Deployment is step 11. So you must use combat squads at step 11. Which means no splitting units and putting them in transports or in strategic reserves, because transports and reserves are declared at step 10.

models can be deployed at step 10 as part of reserves

Therefore start of deployment must happen before step 10 not 11

It also specifies "before any model has been deployed" given models are commonly deployed in reserves at 10 if you wait till after 10 and before 11 as you claim in 99% of games you cannot combat squad at all

Which is clearly not intended

So either combat squads occur at 11 but functionally does nothing

Or it occurs before 10 and interacts with transports and reserves in the way intended

Step 10 makes more sense for intention being as it cannot be GW intention for combat squads to do nothing

U02dah4 wrote:
models can be deployed at step 10 as part of reserves

Therefore start of deployment must happen before step 10 not 11

It also specifies "before any model has been deployed" given models are commonly deployed in reserves at 10 if you wait till after 10 and before 11 as you claim in 99% of games you cannot combat squad at all

Please read the actual rule before engaging in rules discussions. Combat squads has been changed in the new SM 2.0 codex, which was released 11 (!) weeks ago. It now says "At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up......". You use combat squads at start of step 11, so no going back to 10, no transports, no strategic reserves for splitted units.

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
models can be deployed at step 10 as part of reserves

Therefore start of deployment must happen before step 10 not 11

It also specifies "before any model has been deployed" given models are commonly deployed in reserves at 10 if you wait till after 10 and before 11 as you claim in 99% of games you cannot combat squad at all

Please read the actual rule before engaging in rules discussions. Combat squads has been changed in the new SM 2.0 codex, which was released 11 (!) weeks ago. It now says "At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up......". You use combat squads at start of step 11, so no going back to 10, no transports, no strategic reserves for splitted units.

And where in the rules does it say Step 11 is the start of deployment?

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
models can be deployed at step 10 as part of reserves

Therefore start of deployment must happen before step 10 not 11

It also specifies "before any model has been deployed" given models are commonly deployed in reserves at 10 if you wait till after 10 and before 11 as you claim in 99% of games you cannot combat squad at all

Please read the actual rule before engaging in rules discussions. Combat squads has been changed in the new SM 2.0 codex, which was released 11 (!) weeks ago. It now says "At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up......". You use combat squads at start of step 11, so no going back to 10, no transports, no strategic reserves for splitted units.

I’m going by memory here, and don’t have my books to hand, but don’t the rules on the data sheets for most space marine units say something along the lines of “before any models are deployed at the start of the game this unit can be split into 2 combat squads...” and for units with a deep strike rule say something like “during deployment this unit can be set up in orbit/teleport chamber etc...” this wording suggests that combat squading would happen before putting units in deep strike/reserves. This seems to imply that putting things in reserve and transports is part of deployment and so combat squading a unit would happen before declaring which units go in transports. Or am I missing something?

 alextroy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
models can be deployed at step 10 as part of reserves

Therefore start of deployment must happen before step 10 not 11

It also specifies "before any model has been deployed" given models are commonly deployed in reserves at 10 if you wait till after 10 and before 11 as you claim in 99% of games you cannot combat squad at all

Please read the actual rule before engaging in rules discussions. Combat squads has been changed in the new SM 2.0 codex, which was released 11 (!) weeks ago. It now says "At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up......". You use combat squads at start of step 11, so no going back to 10, no transports, no strategic reserves for splitted units.

And where in the rules does it say Step 11 is the start of deployment?

It doesn't but if you point that out his whole premise falls flat on its face.

@psfreak you have quoted the passage that proves my point combat squads must occur before units have been set up which they are at step 10 when they are put in reserve (in most games) if you wait to 11 as you say - then if a model has been set up in reserve it is too late to combat squad anything.

Also when I clearly state a premise based on the rules telling me to read the rules then quoting rules that prove my point just shows rudeness and an inability to read.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
models can be deployed at step 10 as part of reserves

Therefore start of deployment must happen before step 10 not 11

It also specifies "before any model has been deployed" given models are commonly deployed in reserves at 10 if you wait till after 10 and before 11 as you claim in 99% of games you cannot combat squad at all

Please read the actual rule before engaging in rules discussions. Combat squads has been changed in the new SM 2.0 codex, which was released 11 (!) weeks ago. It now says "At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up......". You use combat squads at start of step 11, so no going back to 10, no transports, no strategic reserves for splitted units.

I’m going by memory here, and don’t have my books to hand, but don’t the rules on the data sheets for most space marine units say something along the lines of “before any models are deployed at the start of the game this unit can be split into 2 combat squads...” and for units with a deep strike rule say something like “during deployment this unit can be set up in orbit/teleport chamber etc...” this wording suggests that combat squading would happen before putting units in deep strike/reserves. This seems to imply that putting things in reserve and transports is part of deployment and so combat squading a unit would happen before declaring which units go in transports. Or am I missing something?

1) No they keyworded it.

2) starting a rules argument with i don't have the rules at hand is not a good contribution to a rules argument on technical wording

3) inventing sort of similar wording is worse than not posting as it confuses the issue

4) any reasoning based on invented wording is inherently wrong

5) I don't disagree with your conclusions reguarding intention - intention is clear yes you can combat squad into transport and reserves but that is because of the above arguments

U02dah4 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
models can be deployed at step 10 as part of reserves

Therefore start of deployment must happen before step 10 not 11

It also specifies "before any model has been deployed" given models are commonly deployed in reserves at 10 if you wait till after 10 and before 11 as you claim in 99% of games you cannot combat squad at all

Please read the actual rule before engaging in rules discussions. Combat squads has been changed in the new SM 2.0 codex, which was released 11 (!) weeks ago. It now says "At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up......". You use combat squads at start of step 11, so no going back to 10, no transports, no strategic reserves for splitted units.

And where in the rules does it say Step 11 is the start of deployment?

It doesn't but if you point that out his whole premise falls flat on its face.

@psfreak you have quoted the passage that proves my point combat squads must occur before units have been set up which they are at step 10 when they are put in reserve (in most games) if you wait to 11 as you say - then if a model has been set up in reserve it is too late to combat squad anything.

Also when I clearly state a premise based on the rules telling me to read the rules the quoting rules that prove my point just shows rudeness and an inability to read.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
models can be deployed at step 10 as part of reserves

Therefore start of deployment must happen before step 10 not 11

It also specifies "before any model has been deployed" given models are commonly deployed in reserves at 10 if you wait till after 10 and before 11 as you claim in 99% of games you cannot combat squad at all

Please read the actual rule before engaging in rules discussions. Combat squads has been changed in the new SM 2.0 codex, which was released 11 (!) weeks ago. It now says "At the start of deployment, before any units have been set up......". You use combat squads at start of step 11, so no going back to 10, no transports, no strategic reserves for splitted units.

I’m going by memory here, and don’t have my books to hand, but don’t the rules on the data sheets for most space marine units say something along the lines of “before any models are deployed at the start of the game this unit can be split into 2 combat squads...” and for units with a deep strike rule say something like “during deployment this unit can be set up in orbit/teleport chamber etc...” this wording suggests that combat squading would happen before putting units in deep strike/reserves. This seems to imply that putting things in reserve and transports is part of deployment and so combat squading a unit would happen before declaring which units go in transports. Or am I missing something?

1) No they keyworded it.

2) starting a rules argument with i don't have the rules at hand is not a good contribution to a rules argument on technical wording

3) inventing sort of similar wording is worse than not posting as it confuses the issue

4) any reasoning based on invented wording is inherently wrong

5) I don't disagree with your conclusions reguarding intention - intention is clear yes you can combat squad into transport and reserves but that is because of the above arguments

Thanks for the clarification. FWIW I wasn’t “starting a rules argument” I was asking for some help understanding the rules and the arguments that have been put forward in this thread.

No I wasn't meaning you were starting an argument its just that once a thread has started we try and stick to the rules rather than roughly what it does, - because small differences in wording can make a huge difference in outcome and lots of people use this as a reference extraneous bits can become unwieldy

a question is always fine

 alextroy wrote:
And where in the rules does it say Step 11 is the start of deployment?

I'm curious as to how you could reasonably argue that any step other than the one called "Deploy Armies" is deployment, the start of that stage being the start of deployment.

Because you can deploy models at step 10 prior to 11 and also because deployment and deploy armies are not the same term so could well refer to different things. Deployment is not defined so its not that far a reach to say it could just as easily cover deploying models to reserve or transports as the default deploy armies step.

A better question might be why should step 10not be considered part of deployment. (Without the circular argument if defining step 11 as deployment without evidence)