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Hey guys, towards the end of 8th there was an FAQ that stated that rules that happened in the shooting phase worked for things that occurred as if it was the shooting phase. This was quickly changed to exclude overwatch but I cannot find anything about this since 9th hit.

So can I use rerolls from Cawl during overwatch?

Rule for reference: LORD OF MARS: You can re-roll any hit rolls in the shooting phase for friendly MARS units within 6"

No, because Overwatch happens in the Charge Phase, not the Shooting Phase.

If a rule or stratagem says that it works in a specific phase then it only ever works in that phase, and never when acting as if it were that phase.

And you aren't given explicit permission to utilize abilities specific to a phase to be used during 'as-if' out of phase actions. You are simply instructed to follow all the rules (note, doesn't say abilities, etc) pertaining to the phase.

Abilities triggering != Following the rules of the phase(s)

So even if you "shoot as if shooting phase", it is still whatever phase it currently is. For example, in your psychic phase, if you cast a power that would allow a unit to 'immediately move as if it were movement phase', the current phase is still 'psychic phase' even if you are moving as if movement phase, therefore, any abilities that trigger during the movement phase cannot be used on the unit moving as if movement phase during the psychic phase.

 Bilge Rat wrote:
If a rule or stratagem says that it works in a specific phase then it only ever works in that phase, and never when acting as if it were that phase.

Not entirely correct:

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). You can find out more about Stratagems in the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book.

* When resolving an out of phase rule, all rules that normally apply in that phase continue to apply.
* Phase-specific Stratagems cannot be used when resolving out of phase rules.

So this means a unit Shooting as if it were the shooting phase can use Cawl's Shooting phase reroll. They cannot use a Shooting phase stratagem.

 alextroy wrote:

 Bilge Rat wrote:
If a rule or stratagem says that it works in a specific phase then it only ever works in that phase, and never when acting as if it were that phase.

Not entirely correct:

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). You can find out more about Stratagems in the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book.

* When resolving an out of phase rule, all rules that normally apply in that phase continue to apply.
* Phase-specific Stratagems cannot be used when resolving out of phase rules.

So this means a unit Shooting as if it were the shooting phase can use Cawl's Shooting phase reroll. They cannot use a Shooting phase stratagem.

Even so, Overwatch is not done "as if" it were anything. "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the Charge phase)", thus it is not in the Shooting Phase, thus Cawl's rule can't help Overwatch.

Correct BCB. I was addressing the point I quoted, not the OP question.

Just to further clarify, if you had an ability that triggers when making an attack with a ranged weapon, that ability would trigger during 'as if' out of phase shooting phase. However, if an ability specifies 'in shooting phase', then the ability cannot proc during as if out of phase shooting phase.

Any ability that happens "when making an attack with a ranged weapon" always happens when making an attack with a ranged weapon, regardless of the phase or as if phase.

Any ability that happens "during the Shooting phase" happens during the Shooting phase or when acting as if the Shooting phase. The exception is you cannot use Stratagems that state "during the Shooting phase".

 alextroy wrote:
Any ability that happens "during the Shooting phase" happens during the Shooting phase or when acting as if the Shooting phase.

I agree with the rest but this claim is unsubstantiated by the rulebook.

We don't know whether "in ______ phase" abilities gets resolved as normal during as-if OOP actions. All we know is that "any rules that are normally used in the phase". You are given permission to act as if it was a different phase, but there's no specific permission to consider the current phase to match the one required for such ability during OOP actions.

We know that resolution of units' abilities and units' weapons' abilities during the resolution of shooting attacks made 'as-if' OOP shooting phase are part of "any rules that are normally used in the phase," but we come to an impasse when the said abilities' resolution/activation/trigger is a specific phase.

HIWPI/RAI approach would be to follow the precedent set forth by the restrictions on stratagems activated in specific phases, but ultimately, this portion of the rule will need to be hashed out between the players prior to the game.

I don't follow where you get to your HIWPI or even how you would apply it. Can you give an example?

 alextroy wrote:
I don't follow where you get to your HIWPI or even how you would apply it. Can you give an example?

TLDR: You still have to fulfill the conditions required for the ability in order for it to have an effect. If an ability carries a condition for being used in a specific phase, it doesn't have an effect when played/used outside of its specified phase that it can be triggered in.

Cawl's ability, LORD OF MARS: You can re-roll any hit rolls in the shooting phase for friendly MARS units within 6", is a rule/ability that is normally used in the shooting phase. When you are shooting OOP via special permission, that phase is still whatever phase it is (because we're not given permission to actually change or consider the current phase to be the phase of the OOP action) and not 'in the shooting phase'.

Hence, abilities such as "when this unit makes a shooting attack" or any of that sort would continue to affect the OOP action & its resolution. However, LORD OF MARS would be used, but it will not have an effect because its effect is strictly tied to 'in the shooting phase' and not 'you can re-roll any hit rolls whenever a friendly MARS unit within 6" makes a shooting attack'.

We are simply given the permission to invoke the rules of the phases that are not the current phase. We are not given the permission to change the current phase into something else for the purpose of any other rules pertaining to those OOP actions.

 skchsan wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I don't follow where you get to your HIWPI or even how you would apply it. Can you give an example?

TLDR: You still have to fulfill the conditions required for the ability in order for it to have an effect. If an ability carries a condition for being used in a specific phase, it doesn't have an effect when played/used outside of its specified phase that it can be triggered in.

Cawl's ability, LORD OF MARS: You can re-roll any hit rolls in the shooting phase for friendly MARS units within 6", is a rule/ability that is normally used in the shooting phase. When you are shooting OOP via special permission, that phase is still whatever phase it is (because we're not given permission to actually change or consider the current phase to be the phase of the OOP action) and not 'in the shooting phase'.

Hence, abilities such as "when this unit makes a shooting attack" or any of that sort would continue to affect the OOP action & its resolution. However, LORD OF MARS would be used, but it will not have an effect because its effect is strictly tied to 'in the shooting phase' and not 'as if shooting phase'.

We are simply given the permission to invoke the rules of the phases that are not the current phase. We are not given the permission to change the current phase into something else.

The opposite of this
A Harlie from who from Dreaming Shaddow with Sombre Sentinels within 6" of a troupe master can re-roll the wounds for their shooting attack when they die.
Somber sentinels says if the model is slain they can make a shooting attack OR a melee attack when they are slain. The troupe masters says they can re-roll wounds in the fight phase. So if they die in the fight phase they can shoot their pistol (or any other weapon) and also get to re-roll wounds because of the troupe master.

Whether or not an ability says "in the X phase" or specifies some trigger on action instead can make a lot of difference in various situations.

 Type40 wrote:
The opposite of this
A Harlie from who from Dreaming Shaddow with Sombre Sentinels within 6" of a troupe master can re-roll the wounds for their shooting attack when they die.
Somber sentinels says if the model is slain they can make a shooting attack OR a melee attack when they are slain. The troupe masters says they can re-roll wounds in the fight phase. So if they die in the fight phase they can shoot their pistol (or any other weapon) and also get to re-roll wounds because of the troupe master. But if they die in any other phase than fight phase, they get to shoot/melee but doesn't get the re-roll

Whether or not an ability says "in the X phase" or specifies some trigger on action instead can make a lot of difference in various situations.

Emphasis mine to make your statement more relevant (assuming all of your references are correct).

 skchsan wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
The opposite of this
A Harlie from who from Dreaming Shaddow with Sombre Sentinels within 6" of a troupe master can re-roll the wounds for their shooting attack when they die.
Somber sentinels says if the model is slain they can make a shooting attack OR a melee attack when they are slain. The troupe masters says they can re-roll wounds in the fight phase. So if they die in the fight phase they can shoot their pistol (or any other weapon) and also get to re-roll wounds because of the troupe master. But if they die in any other phase than fight phase, they get to shoot/melee but doesn't get the re-roll

Whether or not an ability says "in the X phase" or specifies some trigger on action instead can make a lot of difference in various situations.

Emphasis mine to make your statement more relevant (assuming all of your references are correct).

100 % yes.

 skchsan wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I don't follow where you get to your HIWPI or even how you would apply it. Can you give an example?

TLDR: You still have to fulfill the conditions required for the ability in order for it to have an effect. If an ability carries a condition for being used in a specific phase, it doesn't have an effect when played/used outside of its specified phase that it can be triggered in.

Cawl's ability, LORD OF MARS: You can re-roll any hit rolls in the shooting phase for friendly MARS units within 6", is a rule/ability that is normally used in the shooting phase. When you are shooting OOP via special permission, that phase is still whatever phase it is (because we're not given permission to actually change or consider the current phase to be the phase of the OOP action) and not 'in the shooting phase'.

Hence, abilities such as "when this unit makes a shooting attack" or any of that sort would continue to affect the OOP action & its resolution. However, LORD OF MARS would be used, but it will not have an effect because its effect is strictly tied to 'in the shooting phase' and not 'you can re-roll any hit rolls whenever a friendly MARS unit within 6" makes a shooting attack'.

We are simply given the permission to invoke the rules of the phases that are not the current phase. We are not given the permission to change the current phase into something else for the purpose of any other rules pertaining to those OOP actions.

I have to disagree with this analysis. You are given specific permission by the rules to use rules, except for stratagems, that apply to that phase when acting "as if" you are in that phase. Therefore, you may benefit from Lord of Mars when shooting as if the shooting phase.

Quick reminder there is a FAQ that allows a unit of Swooping Hawks to still use their Grenade pack (an ability that triggers when the unit moves in the movement phase) when they are able to move like if it where the Movement phase.

 Lord Perversor wrote:
Quick reminder there is a FAQ that allows a unit of Swooping Hawks to still use their Grenade pack (an ability that triggers when the unit moves in the movement phase) when they are able to move like if it where the Movement phase.

Which applies to Swooping Hawks and Swooping Hawks alone.

But also points to what GW means when they say you can use rules for Phase X when acting as Phase X. If one interpretation is in line with another FAQ answer and the other is not, the one that matches up is more likely to be the correct interpretation.