As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric.

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**VladimirHerzog**

Rosebuddy wrote:

The simple way of differentiating the strictly separated commande structures of the Imperium and the loosey-goosey rival warband nature of the Chaos Legions is to mix cultists, mutants, daemons and marines in one army. Only marines and daemons need to be different depending on which god they belong to, anyway. Cultists and mutants don't absolutely need to be separate units, either. So instead of just being meaner-looking marines they're marines with access to chaff infantry as well as weird shock troopers. This would come at the cost of razorbacks, land speeders and other specialised and new equipment that needs the superior logistical capabilities of the Imperium. Maybe CSM don't have much access to drop pods because they generally lack the ability to pick them back up again or produce a lot more after a botched raid? Maybe only the lord of the warband would have the clout to spend that sort of thing on his personal battlefield entrance?

Another way to further differentiate the two is in which weapons they use and how they approach handing guns out. Imperial marines have doctrines and defined vehicle variants that are designed from the ground up to perform specific roles according to specific standards. Whereas Chaos marines just grab guns with the range they prefer fighting in and solder whatever available weaponry they have onto whatever vehicle chassis they have. They won't bother naming a new land raider variant, they'll just bolt some flamethrowers to the sides and a plasma cannon ripped from a dreadnought that pissed them off for the last time up front. Did your predator's turret take a hit on the last raid and now the reloading mechanism is scrap? Tough luck, you got no proper replacements and have to wire a missile launcher into there if you don't want to catch hell from your masters. Same goes for infantry weapons, if you've stolen a crate of grenade launchers, heavy stubbers, mortars or similar low-tech things that even the Imperial Guard uses then you're gonna give them to your shooty-obsessed dudes.

Thinking about it, if CSM were more ferocious but bordering on over-armed that'd be a neat drawback. Like, a squad would pack bolters, bolt pistols, knives and worse, grenades, hand flamers and whatever else submachinegun or chainsword each individual could get their hands on in addition to specialist troopers with grenade launchers and assault specialists with power axes and plasma pistols. Positively bristling with firepower when a more sensible approach would be sufficient. To say nothing of what the champion would demand! CSM don't become squad leaders by being tactically minded, they do it by being awful murderers. Of course they wouldn't want a feebler gun than the people they boss around. Of course they'd nab that shiny new meltagun or autocannon. They're here to cause havoc, not be orderly. They follow the legion ethos of overwhelming might, not the chapter ethos of precise assault. Chaos marines aren't about restraint, even when it would benefit them.

Additionally I would like rules for possession that aren't just one, single unit type with no upgrades or weapons of their own. Preferably as an upgrade to existing CSM units so you can have possessed bikers or whatever, or possessed HQ dudes. It'd be fun.

CSM have access to regular drop pods in the fluff. They still have their old infrastructure from before the heresy. They also use land speeders in the fluff. Its not like CSM don't have access to the Dark mechanicum.
They also have warpsmiths to maintain their vehicles so no, a fethed autoloader doesnt mean they can't fix it.

Your perception of what CSM are seems to be really off the mark. The only thing i can agree with is that they should have less restrictions on weapons overall. Oh, and basic CSMs should be allowed to take bolters AND chainswords.

**Rosebuddy**

A Black Crusade absolutely should pull all the stops but CSM definitely don't have pre-heresy infrastructure. They can't openly recruit from Imperial space, they can't access Imperial materials, shipyards, factory worlds or the whole collected knowledge and training of Imperial institutions. Everything the traitors have is more selfish and more splintered than their Imperial counterparts. Quite the feat! The natural unit of the CSM isn't the legion, it's the warband.

"Realistically" a warband could have access to absolutely any single vehicle or gun that they could've stolen from anywhere or even built themselves in workshops set up by engineers unfettered by Imperial doctrine, whether through worship of the Chaos gods or by virtue of being aliens. Why wouldn't you be able to have a champion blessed by Khorne to understand any weapon who drives around in a tau tank? Why wouldn't you be able to have a possessed apothecary using daemonic inspiration to spawn countless genespliced bioweapons copying everything from orcs to tyranids? You can legit write a story about anything.

But the list should represent what the CSM warbands can more reliably access and in a way that is flavourfully distinct from Imperial marines. That's why I'm suggesting a broader range of weapons and a lack of codified variants, born out of necessity from their degraded material conditions. I mean, it kind of was a big point that the traitor legions used outdated technology and thus didn't have land speeders, attack bikes, marine-portable plasma cannons or storm bolters etc etc because those were all post-heresy inventions.

**Gadzilla666**

Rosebuddy wrote:
A Black Crusade absolutely should pull all the stops but CSM definitely don't have pre-heresy infrastructure. They can't openly recruit from Imperial space, they can't access Imperial materials, shipyards, factory worlds or the whole collected knowledge and training of Imperial institutions. Everything the traitors have is more selfish and more splintered than their Imperial counterparts. Quite the feat! The natural unit of the CSM isn't the legion, it's the warband.

"Realistically" a warband could have access to absolutely any single vehicle or gun that they could've stolen from anywhere or even built themselves in workshops set up by engineers unfettered by Imperial doctrine, whether through worship of the Chaos gods or by virtue of being aliens. Why wouldn't you be able to have a champion blessed by Khorne to understand any weapon who drives around in a tau tank? Why wouldn't you be able to have a possessed apothecary using daemonic inspiration to spawn countless genespliced bioweapons copying everything from orcs to tyranids? You can legit write a story about anything.

But the list should represent what the CSM warbands can more reliably access and in a way that is flavourfully distinct from Imperial marines. That's why I'm suggesting a broader range of weapons and a lack of codified variants, born out of necessity from their degraded material conditions. I mean, it kind of was a big point that the traitor legions used outdated technology and thus didn't have land speeders, attack bikes, marine-portable plasma cannons or storm bolters etc etc because those were all post-heresy inventions.

Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?

The natural unit of a Legionnaire is the Legion. The Legions absolutely have infrastructure. They have their own planets and systems within the Eye. And now with the opening of the Great Rift they have them outside of it as well.

And they work with the Dark Mechanicus, who have their own Forge Worlds, called Hellforges. You know, like all those "Hellforged" weapons and vehicles they have. Those are referred to as "Hellforged" because they're built, repaired, and maintained at Hellforges. And that includes all those lovely Heresy pattern weapons and vehicles referred to as "Hellforged" as well, because on their way to the Eye the Legions stole a lot of stcs from the broken Imperium, and they still have them. And even then, the Dark Mechanicus has no problems reverse engineering things like the Mechanicus does.

The Legions are just as organized and well equipped as they ever were, otherwise a bunch of "warbands" would never have broken the back of the Imperium's defenses and split the galaxy in two.

**Hecaton**

Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.

**VladimirHerzog**

Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.

They still have the infrastructure to maintain heresy-era gear

**ZebioLizard2**

Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.

Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

**H.B.M.C.**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Spoiler:

I have no argument to post in regards to what you said. I just wanted to say that I like it when you post pics of your stuff, as it always looks awesome.

**vecuu**

Mr Raptor wrote:

What is next ? a codex for each tyranid Hive fleet ? Kroots codex ? A Primaris-only codex ? Bjorn's codex with only Bjorn ?.

If only you knew how much I would love that.

**Gadzilla666**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

The Night Lords can still band together when they need to. See the gathering of the Legion to attack Craftworld Ulthwe at the end of Void Stalker. The 8th edition codex also mentions that after the opening of the Great Rift they are: "Long scattered, they are uniting, warband by warband, in the name of some dire cause ". So even the more scattered Legions can gather their forces when they want.

**Esmer**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

Are Iron Warriors cohesive though? They are fighting massive civil wars between themselves in the BL novels.

Alpha Legion I always saw as operating in independent cells scattered throughout the galaxy. It would also fit their stealthy/spec-ops theme and the self-contradicting lore bits on their true allegiance.

**Not Online!!!**

Esmer wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

Are Iron Warriors cohesive though? They are fighting massive civil wars between themselves in the BL novels.

Alpha Legion I always saw as operating in independent cells scattered throughout the galaxy. It would also fit their stealthy/spec-ops theme and the self-contradicting lore bits on their true allegiance.

They fight those civil wars and end them, to cull the weak in their ranks, on order of perturabo. And considering they make their own marines liberally...

As for AL, considering that they seamlessy fold into one another with no visible infighting when they amass in force they do infact have organisational structures. Probably even better ones then the ones in the eye, else you'd not be able to pull the shenanigans they do.

**Iracundus**

All the Legions are to some degree less coherent than they were in the Heresy days because they have had to adapt to the warband model, centered around Champions.

They might retain some of their old organizational titles but that is really more remnant trappings of the past. What you have are warbands of varying sizes, and these banding together under a leader and you have all the attendant infighting. Once in awhile, a warlord holds together enough of a temporary alliance of warbands to constitute a Black Crusade, but these eventually splinter when the warlord dies or as warbands break off to pursue their own goals.

Even the Daemon Primarchs, while retaining perhaps what might be called a core of their old Legion, are really just gigantic warband leaders. By warband leaders, I mean they lead through their own individual personality, power and charisma, rather than through their followers having loyalty in a structure and chain of command.

I think some of the old Realms of Chaos books talked about how the Legion structure began to break down. Who becomes a Champion is not necessarily the highest rank in a formation. So what happens when a Sergeant gets a Chaos Mark and becomes a Champion, while the Captain doesn't? How does the Captain continue to maintain authority when one of his subordinates starts to show unmistakable signs of divine favor? You get a schism of command eventually.

Anyway, the focus on CSM dates from 2nd edition, as explained by Andy Chambers in the designer notes of that edition's Chaos Codex which I am looking at right now as I type this out. Basically the goal was to achieve a more unified feel for Chaos because back in the Realms of Chaos days it was a varied mix of mutants, cultists, daemons and CSM. However it was felt this created an unfocused "bitty" look on the table.

**A.T.**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?

Apparently so -

Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying sizes. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. Themost fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 12.

The Black Legion is made up of many warbands whose appearance and motivations vary wildly, but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler and so broadly employ the same tactics in battle.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 17.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

In response to the OP, I do and don’t agree.

I absolutely agree Chaos needs to be expanded. Not necessarily to just have naughty equivalents to the Imperium’s armies though. But a solid Lost and the Damned force would do much of the legwork - and could even provide a springboard for forces within to be spun off into full Codexes of their own.

But, CSM absolutely need to remain a cohesive force unto themselves.

**Eldarsif**

To OP.

I agree to a point. I think AoS has done this well by making each book Daemon specific with a wealth of choices within the books themselves(although Hedonites could do with more mortals).

**Hecaton**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
They still have the infrastructure to maintain heresy-era gear

In some cases yes, in some cases no.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

Nah. Black Legion is the only one that still works as a legion, at least until Mortarion started being more active.

**macluvin**

I think it would be cool to see renegades and heretics get a legit reboot, but the whole chaos tearing the galaxy a new butthole was brought on by chaos legions, and what remains of them as well as fresh heretic marines falling to chaos does still make up the arch enemy of man kind right now. I think it is centric because chaos space marines are the ones that messed everything up and consistently cause more and more problems for humanity. I do think that the writers have conveniently neglected the hordes of traitor guard, cultist uprisings, and heretic world defense forces and throne knows what other mere mortals that would champion chaos, and their significant role in chaos space marines being able to destroy Cadia for example, and I agree that they should be accredited for doing most of the work.. Chaos space marines are generally the most interesting dynamic to me though.

**H.B.M.C.**

Hecaton wrote:
Black Legion is the only one that still works as a legion, at least until Mortarion started being more active.

That is not even slightly true.

**Gadzilla666**

A.T. wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?
Apparently so -

Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying sizes. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. Themost fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 12.

The Black Legion is made up of many warbands whose appearance and motivations vary wildly, but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler and so broadly employ the same tactics in battle.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 17.

The Eye of Terror is known to be home to the darkest evils of the galaxy. At the height of the Horus Heresy the Traitor Legions were driven from Holy Terra and naturally sought shelter within the Realm of Chaos. Each Legion claimed for itself a new homeworld, moulding it to its own perverse designs.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 3rd edition, Page 7.

Sounds like all those "companies and warbands of varying sizes" like to have a place they can hang out together. Almost like they still feel some kind of bond of brotherhood. Like some kind of Legion.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
They still have the infrastructure to maintain heresy-era gear

In some cases yes, in some cases no.

Hellforges listed and described in IA 13:

Xana II
Rethlaxi
The Silent Forge
Abhielung
Cyclotrathe
Samech
Uraniborg 1572
Temporia
Sarum
Crucible-Omega

Exactly who do you think all these Hellforges are producing arms and equipment for? The Tau?

**Canadian 5th**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?
Apparently so -

Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying sizes. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. Themost fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 12.

The Black Legion is made up of many warbands whose appearance and motivations vary wildly, but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler and so broadly employ the same tactics in battle.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 17.

The Eye of Terror is known to be home to the darkest evils of the galaxy. At the height of the Horus Heresy the Traitor Legions were driven from Holy Terra and naturally sought shelter within the Realm of Chaos. Each Legion claimed for itself a new homeworld, moulding it to its own perverse designs.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 3rd edition, Page 7.

Sounds like all those "companies and warbands of varying sizes" like to have a place they can hang out together. Almost like they still feel some kind of bond of brotherhood. Like some kind of Legion.

Except that a legion isn't just a bunch of warriors that are all sworn in under the same ancient banner. A legion IS its command structure, systems of promotions, and regimented training. If any of those break down you no longer have a legion as it was before the heresy.

**Gadzilla666**

Canadian 5th wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?
Apparently so -

Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying sizes. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. Themost fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 12.

The Black Legion is made up of many warbands whose appearance and motivations vary wildly, but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler and so broadly employ the same tactics in battle.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 17.

The Eye of Terror is known to be home to the darkest evils of the galaxy. At the height of the Horus Heresy the Traitor Legions were driven from Holy Terra and naturally sought shelter within the Realm of Chaos. Each Legion claimed for itself a new homeworld, moulding it to its own perverse designs.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 3rd edition, Page 7.

Sounds like all those "companies and warbands of varying sizes" like to have a place they can hang out together. Almost like they still feel some kind of bond of brotherhood. Like some kind of Legion.

Except that a legion isn't just a bunch of warriors that are all sworn in under the same ancient banner. A legion IS its command structure, systems of promotions, and regimented training. If any of those break down you no longer have a legion as it was before the heresy.

And how do you know none of them have those things now? All the Legions, or "warbands", have a command structure. They obviously have a leader, and they then have subordinates who have command over their own squads. There's a reason every squad of csm has an Aspiring Champion who fulfills the same function as the Sergeant in a squad of loyalists.

And they have systems of promotion, they're just not the same as loyalists. Some Legions never were. Internecine violence was always a way for upward mobility among the ranks of the Night Lords, even during the Crusade. Much of their command structure was based on the gang culture of Nostromo. And where does it say that they don't train? If anything, what's better training than millennia of constant warfare?

**Castozor**

Yeh the Legions being functionally dead is an odd take for me. I can only speak for my own, the Death Guard, but what I've read so far seems to indicate that the DG have a very strict hierarchy pre- and post Heresy. Sure they are often scattered as war bands nowadays, but there is still a clear line of command when needed. Whoever is lower obeys whoever is higher with the obvious exception of Typhus and Mortarion, who don't get along well.

**Charistoph**

Hecaton wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

Nah. Black Legion is the only one that still works as a legion, at least until Mortarion started being more active.

Not necessarily. Alpha Legion's operations haven't really changed THAT much since before the Heresy. They've always been set up more as scattered warbands than a cohesive Legion like the Black Legion. But that's more of a case of their style than anything else.

And just because the Imperium has only seen most of the rest operate as Warbands, doesn't mean their old command structure doesn't have some sway over them.

**Esmer**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Esmer wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

Are Iron Warriors cohesive though? They are fighting massive civil wars between themselves in the BL novels.

Alpha Legion I always saw as operating in independent cells scattered throughout the galaxy. It would also fit their stealthy/spec-ops theme and the self-contradicting lore bits on their true allegiance.

They fight those civil wars and end them, to cull the weak in their ranks, on order of perturabo.

Not sure about that. The one depicted in "Dead Sky, Black Sun" was about the personal vendettas between Honsou and some other Warsmiths. No mention of Perturabo anywhere in the book from what I recall, though he may have been linked to the events in later novels.
Likewise, the Iron Warriors Company in the "Beast Arises" series seems to have acted pretty independently from Perturabo as well.

Of course, this was the pre-8th edition fluff were pretty much all of the Daemon Primarchs minus Angron were doing nothing but sitting around on their fat demonic asses in their respective demonic lairs for the past 10,000 years. He may have been re-written to take a more pro-active role in more recent lore.

**A.T.**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sounds like all those "companies and warbands of varying sizes" like to have a place they can hang out together. Almost like they still feel some kind of bond of brotherhood. Like some kind of Legion.

Sounds like all those "companies and warbands" are broken down by millenia of infighting bands and by individuals purusing their own jealous interests.

As your quote indicates they were coherent legions at the end of the heresy, but that was over ten thousand years ago. Beyond that you'd have to take any disagreement on headcannon to GW themselves - i'm just copy/pasting from the latest codex.

**Ordana**

Word Bearer novels have consistently painted them as a mostly coherent legion after the Heresy.

Read any of Dark Apostle, Dark Creed or Dark Disciple and you will see mentions of the structure and chain of command that still exists beyond warbands.

**Sunny Side Up**

Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.

In the lore? Usually trying to find and kill Ahriman at all costs

**Rosebuddy**

Obviously many of the warbands can form under the common banner of their legion. If Perturabo sends out his mightiest to gather as many Iron Warriors as they can, that's going to happen. They'll pool together all their siege engines and build even meaner ones. But up until that point they're often rivals if not outright enemies and each band gathers its own materiel. That's what I think that a CSM army list should reflect. Not every single thing that a primarch can command when they launch an all-out offensive but the more common reality for the warbands.

The point is to make a CSM list that isn't just spiky space marines and giving them capital-e Evil counterparts to everything that Imperial marines has is counterproductive to that.

**VladimirHerzog**

Rosebuddy wrote:
Obviously many of the warbands can form under the common banner of their legion. If Perturabo sends out his mightiest to gather as many Iron Warriors as they can, that's going to happen. They'll pool together all their siege engines and build even meaner ones. But up until that point they're often rivals if not outright enemies and each band gathers its own materiel. That's what I think that a CSM army list should reflect. Not every single thing that a primarch can command when they launch an all-out offensive but the more common reality for the warbands.

The point is to make a CSM list that isn't just spiky space marines and giving them capital-e Evil counterparts to everything that Imperial marines has is counterproductive to that.

loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.

Thats how you differentiate between the two. The problem is that now CSM are penalized for taking HH stuff because for some reason they also have to pay for martial legacy. And now primaris are getting volkite again so thats even more stuff that should be for CSM only that primaris are taking.

CSM should be marine-centric. If you want to add cultists/militia then just make an actual Renegades and Heretics codex instead of legending it.

Chaos as a whole is fethed right now because GW doesnt seem to want to give support to anything else than primaris. Make R&H, make Dark mechanicus (heck, you just need to give the FW stuff 40k rules and you'd already have a big part of the army done), and make God-centric codexes that include the corresponding legion (DG+nurgle demons, etc)

**xerxeskingofking**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Rosebuddy wrote:
Obviously many of the warbands can form under the common banner of their legion. If Perturabo sends out his mightiest to gather as many Iron Warriors as they can, that's going to happen. They'll pool together all their siege engines and build even meaner ones. But up until that point they're often rivals if not outright enemies and each band gathers its own materiel. That's what I think that a CSM army list should reflect. Not every single thing that a primarch can command when they launch an all-out offensive but the more common reality for the warbands.

The point is to make a CSM list that isn't just spiky space marines and giving them capital-e Evil counterparts to everything that Imperial marines has is counterproductive to that.

loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.

Thats how you differentiate between the two. The problem is that now CSM are penalized for taking HH stuff because for some reason they also have to pay for martial legacy. And now primaris are getting volkite again so thats even more stuff that should be for CSM only that primaris are taking.

CSM should be marine-centric. If you want to add cultists/militia then just make an actual Renegades and Heretics codex instead of legending it.

Chaos as a whole is fethed right now because GW doesnt seem to want to give support to anything else than primaris. Make R&H, make Dark mechanicus (heck, you just need to give the FW stuff 40k rules and you'd already have a big part of the army done), and make God-centric codexes that include the corresponding legion (DG+nurgle demons, etc)

yes, CSM should be marine centric, but the question is should Chaos, the faction AS A WHOLE, be marine centric, or should more effort be placed on building up the deamons the R&H, etc?