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Always been damage 3

The Lantern is listed as D3 in my copy of the DG book.

 Jidmah wrote:
It has always been 3 damage flat, but used hit all units between Mortarion and his target. At 12" that ability wouldn't make much sense.

Void Dragons spear does that at 12'

 Sasori wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It has always been 3 damage flat, but used hit all units between Mortarion and his target. At 12" that ability wouldn't make much sense.

Void Dragons spear does that at 12'

Yup, Think it's to try and debuff it a bit

Yes, T8 finally.

When updating first post, I just realized his degradation threshold went up.

He used to be
9-18
5-8
1-4

The datasheet is
10+
6-9
1-5

Reaping also lost its AP.

So maybe they are nerfing him down to C'Tan levels to drop his points?

Mmm.

I think the interesting thing is whether Mortarion gets "only take 6 wounds in a phase" or something.

I know there's some criticism of rolling it out to everything - but... meh. I feel its kind of necessary on these 500~ point units, even if it potentially brings its own issues. Admittedly the Silent King doesn't have it - but I feel the Menhirs sort of work in the same way by hopefully breaking up damage.

 Jidmah wrote:


Reaping also lost its AP.

So maybe they are nerfing him down to C'Tan levels to drop his points?

Reaping didn't lose its AP; it doesn't appear at all. It has either been turned into an ability or removed entirely, leaving him only with eviscerating blow

You are right, those are the nurglings

Always forget about them.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Reaping also lost its AP.

So maybe they are nerfing him down to C'Tan levels to drop his points?

Reaping didn't lose its AP; it doesn't appear at all. It has either been turned into an ability or removed entirely, leaving him only with eviscerating blow

Also c'tan aren't packing 18 t8 wounds with DR on top, he'll always be more expensive by a fair chunk.

 Jidmah wrote:
It has always been 3 damage flat, but used hit all units between Mortarion and his target. At 12" that ability wouldn't make much sense.

Oh okay then. Not sure why they couldn't just keep that ability for 12".

He can be one-rounded though and can't hide.

Well we we have to wait and see I guess, T8 is a step in the right direction and he might be gaining a woundcap to prevent one rounding. Losing his sweep would be annoying though I'd imagine.

Dudeface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

My source: do you think even GW thinks they can properly cost a T5 W2 3+ 5+++ model?

Yes, they do and it won't stop them trying. Its not like they didnt try and price a t5 w2 2+/5++/5+++ terminator

4++ even. During 8th Blightlords and I think even Deathshroud saw some play from time to time but in my recollection they were never overbearing and nicely priced for what they did. These models also have a better offensive profile than regular PM's and can deepstrike. If they could balance these I'm sure they'll manage with our new PM.

 Jidmah wrote:
He can be one-rounded though and can't hide.

A lot harder to do it now though. T8 will help vs a lot of the S4 and S7-8 you might see.

However we don't know the value of DR is still, so who knows.

 Jidmah wrote:
He can be one-rounded though and can't hide.

Did they re-price him at the start of 9th? Because if they increase his stats his cost won't be going down from that logically.

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
He can be one-rounded though and can't hide.

Did they re-price him at the start of 9th? Because if they increase his stats his cost won't be going down from that logically.

I agree he won't go down but in all honesty he should even with the buff.

He's almost 500pts and has to be your warlord.

The warlord trait is useless as he has to go straight at the enemy and the other DG units are too slow to keep up with him(there are exceptions, but there always are)
He is so big there is no way he will not be shot from turn 1.
There are many armies that can easily one shot him, and even if they don't he is so weak he's rendered useless.

In a vacuum he looks great, but if DG go second he is a waste

 Jidmah wrote:
It has always been 3 damage flat, but used hit all units between Mortarion and his target. At 12" that ability wouldn't make much sense.

I wonder if he might be losing that. 12" is very short range for such an ability.

Doohicky wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
He can be one-rounded though and can't hide.

Did they re-price him at the start of 9th? Because if they increase his stats his cost won't be going down from that logically.

I agree he won't go down but in all honesty he should even with the buff.

He's almost 500pts and has to be your warlord.

The warlord trait is useless as he has to go straight at the enemy and the other DG units are too slow to keep up with him(there are exceptions, but there always are)
He is so big there is no way he will not be shot from turn 1.
There are many armies that can easily one shot him, and even if they don't he is so weak he's rendered useless.

In a vacuum he looks great, but if DG go second he is a waste

He may well get a new warlord trait, new psychic powers maybe, the t8 counts for a lot as well. Just need to wait and see about big morty.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It has always been 3 damage flat, but used hit all units between Mortarion and his target. At 12" that ability wouldn't make much sense.

Oh okay then. Not sure why they couldn't just keep that ability for 12".

We've got no evidence he hasn't, yet - that sort of weapon special rule won't show up on these sheets, like Plague Weapon doesn't.

We need to remember the limitations of the source, and not jump to conclusions that aren't supported by the format. Anything that isn't a pure number isn't up for change here.

 Dysartes wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It has always been 3 damage flat, but used hit all units between Mortarion and his target. At 12" that ability wouldn't make much sense.

Oh okay then. Not sure why they couldn't just keep that ability for 12".

We've got no evidence he hasn't, yet - that sort of weapon special rule won't show up on these sheets, like Plague Weapon doesn't.

We need to remember the limitations of the source, and not jump to conclusions that aren't supported by the format. Anything that isn't a pure number isn't up for change here.

Are we still pretending that GW isn't doing this?

One a day, no PL reveals, interesting units only.

Doohicky wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
He can be one-rounded though and can't hide.

Did they re-price him at the start of 9th? Because if they increase his stats his cost won't be going down from that logically.

I agree he won't go down but in all honesty he should even with the buff.

He's almost 500pts and has to be your warlord.

The warlord trait is useless as he has to go straight at the enemy and the other DG units are too slow to keep up with him(there are exceptions, but there always are)
He is so big there is no way he will not be shot from turn 1.
There are many armies that can easily one shot him, and even if they don't he is so weak he's rendered useless.

In a vacuum he looks great, but if DG go second he is a waste

That's not really true anymore.

Yes, it can happen from game to game that you meet an army that can remove a model like that before you can use it, but we are talking about one list out of ten.

This isn't 8th. Lists aren't geared to take down knights. Lists are at the very least 50% melee units, which are VERY scared by him.

I can only think about Admech being able to seriously threaten him, and should you ever meet that kind of list, then that is the one time that you put him in reserves.

An eradicator squad with chapter master buff is only 5 wounds on him, and that is usually the amount of heavy firepower that he will have to eat during turn 1.

Out of the common 9th lists I can't find anything more than Admech that can really put the hurt on him:

- White scars? No
- Blood Angels? No
- Dark Angels? No
- Demons? No
- Harlequins? No
- Custodes? No
- Tyranids? No
- Orks? Maybe if they spam a lot of mek gunz and they get really lucky.
- Necrons? Don't know the new ones well enough, but I don't think that they play all that long ranged firepower.

Spoletta wrote:


An eradicator squad with chapter master buff is only 5 wounds on him, and that is usually the amount of heavy firepower that he will have to eat during turn 1.

Where are you getting this? Eradicators can shoot twice if they all fire at the same unit and haven't advanced. If they all hit and just half get through, there is a potential 5D6 damage. 5D6+10 if they're in half range or using heavy melta. 5D6+20 if they're both in half range and carrying heavy melta. And that's only if half of them wound. If the average roll of two dice is seven, then there is anywhere from 17 damage to 37 damage he can take from just ONE unit of Eradicators. But let's be fair. Let's say 7 of 10 hit, and he saves 3 of them. So, there are only 4 getting through, and only 2 of those wound - he only takes 2 wounds. That still translates into 2D6+4 with heavy melta at normal range, 2D6+8 with heavy melta at half range. That could still severely cripple him. And that's the shooting from one unit that is in every marine list now.

And when they nerf DR it'll only get worse.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It has always been 3 damage flat, but used hit all units between Mortarion and his target. At 12" that ability wouldn't make much sense.

Oh okay then. Not sure why they couldn't just keep that ability for 12".

We've got no evidence he hasn't, yet - that sort of weapon special rule won't show up on these sheets, like Plague Weapon doesn't.

We need to remember the limitations of the source, and not jump to conclusions that aren't supported by the format. Anything that isn't a pure number isn't up for change here.

Are we still pretending that GW isn't doing this?

One a day, no PL reveals, interesting units only.

I don't know who is posting them, but you've missed what I was meaning by "source" here - I wasn't referring to who is posting the pictures, but the assembly instruction datasheet itself. While we might see some changes to numerical values in stat lines on there, we can't draw any conclusions regarding special rules as these sheets lack them entirely.

 puma713 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


An eradicator squad with chapter master buff is only 5 wounds on him, and that is usually the amount of heavy firepower that he will have to eat during turn 1.

Where are you getting this? Eradicators can shoot twice if they all fire at the same unit and haven't advanced. If they all hit and just half get through, there is a potential 5D6 damage. 5D6+10 if they're in half range or using heavy melta. 5D6+20 if they're both in half range and carrying heavy melta. And that's only if half of them wound. If the average roll of two dice is seven, then there is anywhere from 17 damage to 37 damage he can take from just ONE unit of Eradicators. But let's be fair. Let's say 7 of 10 hit, and he saves 3 of them. So, there are only 4 getting through, and only 2 of those wound - he only takes 2 wounds. That still translates into 2D6+4 with heavy melta at normal range, 2D6+8 with heavy melta at half range. That could still severely cripple him. And that's the shooting from one unit that is in every marine list now.

He's talking about averages, not potential.

Grot squad of 30 POTENTIALLY causes 30 wounds to it.

Do you say consider that relevant?

6*8/9*1/2*1/2*3.5=4.666666666666

You can't count 12" range bonus on first turn.

That theory is all nice and dandy, but in all games of 9th I played him in so far, he imploded in turn one and when he didn't, the enemy just didn't let him charge anything and killed him turn two.
A good number of armies listed above can take him out with minimal casualties, for example harlquins can just melta-boat him and Thrakka, a Keeper of Secrets or a Lord of Change are more than match for him in combat.

Keep in mind that we know that Mortarion is likely to become Bubonic Astartes and therefore cannot be warp-timed any more.

Well I will say Morty was also just a paper lion in most games I'd seen him in. Very impressive but often very dead quickly.

I've never used him, but I've never heard of Mortarion being anything other than the thing that dies first turn.

More napkin maths, 1 unit of heavy melta rifles and 2 multi meltas with a chapter master and lieutenant buffing from max range them do 12.44444 wounds to Morty at max range with his new stats (since I can't see an easy way to get all 3 within 12").

That's assuming no -1 modifiers for terrain/miasma.

It seems rough but that's 475 points of firepower from the most overtuned unit in the game with all the rerolls they can get. That's really fairly durable.

Morty was outstanding when he was released. He would singlehandedly destroy armies for me. As 8th developed though I was lucky to see him survive past turn 1. I really hope they introduce something to help with his survivability. As well as having a max number of wounds taken per phase, Gotrek in AoS is a prime example of how rules can keep key characters alive.