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 Bosskelot wrote:
And how exactly does DC getting Core over the other units listed make the game more competitively balanced?

That's a good question, it's more of an inconsistency. The other big bad marine snowflake units have been excluded from core, assumingly in part so they don't get stacking buffs.

Death company will have access to the whole shebang of marine buffs, which elevates them beyond the comparable choices for other chapters. Its an imbalance in this case rather than a balance. I didn't lay that out very well, sorry.

I wouldn't call the Death Company a big bad snowflake unit.

Sure they are unique to the BA, but the don't really have unique equipment.

They are just normal Marines that are better at melee and slightly more durable, but they are still running in power armor with normal bolt pistols, normal chainswords and normal powerswords.

I like the premise of this thread, since I just finished re-reading Storm of Iron. A prominent scene in the book involves an attempt by Guardsmen defending a citadel to destroy the besieging Iron Warriors demonically possessed artillery.

'Cause you know, IW would totally possess their artillery if it made them *less* accurate. Somebody better tell Honsou that those ancient bound entities of power aren't doing the job, he should've gotten some average joes off the street instead.

The fluff has always been at the convenience of the plot - the Necrons are only as tough as they need to be, the marines only have the loadouts that make the scene cool, etc. Given how variable the authors have been there's room for changes in the game mechanics without "destroying the setting" or whatever.

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

 Tyran wrote:
I wouldn't call the Death Company a big bad snowflake unit.

Sure they are unique to the BA, but the don't really have unique equipment.

They are just normal Marines that are better at melee and slightly more durable, but they are still running in power armor with normal bolt pistols, normal chainswords and normal powerswords.

A unit of death company can be buffed up to the eyeballs with jump pack thunder hammers each swinging 5 times with exploding 6's, +1 to wound and rocking 3++ against some characters.

Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.

I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.

I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.

I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.

I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.

I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.

Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?

Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).

I would rather have a balanced and strategic table top war game. 40K lore is, let’s be honest, not great as narrative literature and in the past years especially largely functions as a hype machine to sell models. The original setting and its “world” is in fact very interesting, but the specifics and especially attempts to advance an overarching plot development/meta narrative is pretty half-baked.

Design rules so that all the models produce by GW have a relevant and interesting role in the tabletop game.

Stat inflation is almost always a mistake in competitive games, so if they are inflating stats to try to make the game more competitive, it doesn't sound like they really know what they're doing.

I don't think it's about creating a competitive game, though. The stat inflation is more about creating hype to fuel sales. "This model is sick! You gotta buy it! Look at those stats!" It's a marketing thing, not a game design thing.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Stat inflation is almost always a mistake in competitive games, so if they are inflating stats to try to make the game more competitive, it doesn't sound like they really know what they're doing.

I don't think it's about creating a competitive game, though. The stat inflation is more about creating hype to fuel sales. "This model is sick! You gotta buy it! Look at those stats!" It's a marketing thing, not a game design thing.

It seems to work, people love their stuff to be as powerful as possible at the cost of any wider thought.

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.

I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.

I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.

Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?

Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).

Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.

 Grimskul wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.

I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.

I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.

Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?

Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).

Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.

I fail to see why they're both 3+ bs tbh, but I'd love for the daemon engines to have variable stats based on god alignment.

Give me a 4+/4+ tzeenth defiler next to a 3+/5+ khorne one (if i could amend that bs3+) etc.

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.

I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.

I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.

Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?

Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).

Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.

I fail to see why they're both 3+ bs tbh, but I'd love for the daemon engines to have variable stats based on god alignment.

Give me a 4+/4+ tzeenth defiler next to a 3+/5+ khorne one (if i could amend that bs3+) etc.

Despite not having ranged weapons, it actually makes sense given their orientations. As an entity obsessed with combat and gathering skulls and inflicting bloodshed, Khorne and his daemons epitomize the martial prowess of war which includes ranged combat. You can see that already from how Khorne is the only one with a dedicated ranged platform with the Skull Cannon. Similarly, with Slaanesh being the Prince of Excess, this could also include the pursuit of perfection in war as well, which includes ranged combat. So it's not out of line for fluff at all, even if GW criminally underutilizes these themes/stats.

 Grimskul wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.

I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.

I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.

Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?

Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).

Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.

I fail to see why they're both 3+ bs tbh, but I'd love for the daemon engines to have variable stats based on god alignment.

Give me a 4+/4+ tzeenth defiler next to a 3+/5+ khorne one (if i could amend that bs3+) etc.

Despite not having ranged weapons, it actually makes sense given their orientations. As an entity obsessed with combat and gathering skulls and inflicting bloodshed, Khorne and his daemons epitomize the martial prowess of war which includes ranged combat. You can see that already from how Khorne is the only one with a dedicated ranged platform with the Skull Cannon. Similarly, with Slaanesh being the Prince of Excess, this could also include the pursuit of perfection in war as well, which includes ranged combat. So it's not out of line for fluff at all, even if GW criminally underutilizes these themes/stats.

I'm sold, I'd not thought of khorne as a marksman but it does make sense.

Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.

And as a CSM player, the WS/BS values were not the problems with the Daemon Engines as much as certain people pretend they are.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.

And as a CSM player, the WS/BS values were not the problems with the Daemon Engines as much as certain people pretend they are.

What were the problems in your opinion? Because having them hit on 5+ (because they moved their heavy weapons) was quite a downside to them.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.

Also, the irony of space marine fanboys complaining that a stat change from WS4+ to WS3+ "goes against established lore and statlines since 3rd ed"...

Marines were A1 W1 for HOW long exactly? And rapid fired at half range for HOW long?

Weird how that change was some fantastic return to lore, but this is a break from lore to make a certain type of unit more competitive for soulless tournament play...

The rules are a vehicle to create fluffy armies and games on the tabletop.

Single parts of a datasheet looked at in a vacuum are not related to fluff at all, because you can't represent an entire universe with D6 and mostly single digit stats.

It's also worth noting that much of the opinions on fluff flung around here are not backed up by references to any sources, making the whole discussion even worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.

And as a CSM player, the WS/BS values were not the problems with the Daemon Engines as much as certain people pretend they are.

What were the problems in your opinion? Because having them hit on 5+ (because they moved their heavy weapons) was quite a downside to them.

You must have missed Slayer constantly repeating that every problem with every unit ever can be solved by changing points, and that datasheets or stat lines must not be changed under any circumstance.
Because the last five editions were so great, that deviating from their incredible rules totally ruins the fluff and precious balance between units and factions.

IMO, the whole discussion is just about people hating change and/or envy of what others get.

 Jidmah wrote:

It's also worth noting that much of the opinions on fluff flung around here are not backed up by references to any sources, making the whole discussion even worse.

Well so far the only thing i've seen to justify that demon engines having 4+ is lore friendly is that theyre controlled by demons. Which was immediately proven false by the fac that daemonnetes and bloodletters. Stats have ZERO correlation to the fluff. Army composition does.

Point changes can only take you so far to make a unit viable. If a daemon engine can't hit the side of a barn but is costed accordingly chances are no one will take it as it will take up a very precious Heavy Slot with a unit that is not going to be doing much for you.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Point changes can only take you so far to make a unit viable. If a daemon engine can't hit the side of a barn but is costed accordingly chances are no one will take it as it will take up a very precious Heavy Slot with a unit that is not going to be doing much for you.

More importantly people aren't going to spend $75 on an expensive plastic mini that they have to buy a whole bunch of because they can't hit the broad side of a barn and are costed accordingly.

the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

Weird how that change was some fantastic return to lore, but this is a break from lore to make a certain type of unit more competitive for

soulless tournament play...

best description EVER!!!!!!!!!!

Dudeface wrote:
Just writing this as follow on from the discussions in news and rumours.

Over the last week we've seen daemon engines having increases in BS/WS after 5 editions of being static following the possessed vehicle fluff of 3rd/4th.

We've seen core given to death company but not wulfen or necron destroyers who are arguably no less "core" to a force.

When 9th was previewed, someone coined it "40k: competitive edition". Personally it's starting to feel that fluff considerations are being put aside in favour of making the maths of the game smoother, more competitively focused.

Just wanted a place to see others opinions.

I have to disagree with this analysis. While the changes GW is making may make for better competitive play, they seem to be primarily centered around making the game play more like the background, not less.

I started playing back in 4th edition. During that whole time, Space Marines have never played closer to their background than they do now. All the buffing on of SM during late 8th to 9th has made them closer to their idealized form than they have ever been. And yet, those same rules changes included the introduction of the Core mechanic that is designed to reduce the effectiveness of many of the rules that were most abused in the past.

As for Daemon Engines getting 3+ WS/BS, I've always found it odd that Daemonically possessed vehicles lost skill in the first place. Daemon accuracy has ranges. You'd think the CSM would be smart enough to grab martially inclined daemons to bind into their engines of war. Therefore, I see no problem with the updated stat block.

Just like I see no problem with 2 Wound Space Marines, or 2 Damage Heavy Bolter, or Flamers with 12" ranges. They are all changes, but changes for a better game experience. None of these changes kill the background of Warhammer 40,000.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.

And as a CSM player, the WS/BS values were not the problems with the Daemon Engines as much as certain people pretend they are.

What were the problems in your opinion? Because having them hit on 5+ (because they moved their heavy weapons) was quite a downside to them.

You named a core rule problem, which applies to anything big moving with a weapon. The real problem was them just being expensive for the durability. Each Daemon engine clearly fulfills a role, has unique wargear to do so, and has ways of mitigation to the WS/BS4+ to begin with. However, GW has ALWAYS overvalued regen abilities. The 5++ is already very clutch, but it isn't worth being packaged with any regen if it's going to make said vehicle as expensive as it is.

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I play red corsairs primarily, so your argument doesn't hold up sorry.

Ah, so you will only receive the 2nd wound and bolter discipline. Doesn't change the overall intent. If Space Marines can double their wounds, double their ROF, double their # of attacks, than it is not game breaking or twisting the game to increase the odds of hitting for daemon engines by 16.6%

I'm not convinced bolter discipline/shock assault should be around at the same time as doctrines for loyalist marines, chaos is a little different admittedly as they don't get free ap and a massive army wide buff atm.

I use daemon engines, I'm not whining someone gets something I don't. I don't think me having daemon engines hitting on 2's (thanks disco dave) is good for anyone or consistent with the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh I remember this from news. The answer is pretty much this was a good change, the lore didn't even support it, and overall there's a surprising bit of complaining because Daemon Engines are getting a buff coming from very specific posters.

Yeah I was trying to take the discussion out of news, that was the main intent really.

I agree whole heartedly that Loyalist SM should not have Bolter discipline/shock assault on top of Doctrines and super doctrines, but unfortunately that is the world we live in so to speak. On the reverse side of this, I don't see a problem with Daemon engines coming standard with 3+ to hit. To me the concept of a daemonic entity taking over a vehicle should enhance its abilities not stunt them. Space Marine vehicles all hit on 3s or better and IG vehicles hit on 4s and 3s. So why should a Daemon have the lesser valuation of accuracy? if anything it should be more accurate since its firing what is in essence, an extension of its own body as opposed to an inanimate lump of metal.

Because the daemons themselves are less accurate. A horror of tzeentch is bs 4, why should binding it into a metal body make it suddenly shoot better?

Unless ofc all daemons go to 3+/3+, but then we're in full blown power creep (again).

Ah, but Bloodletters and Daemonettes are WS3+/BS3+. So by your logic there should be representation for them as well.

I fail to see why they're both 3+ bs tbh, but I'd love for the daemon engines to have variable stats based on god alignment.

Give me a 4+/4+ tzeenth defiler next to a 3+/5+ khorne one (if i could amend that bs3+) etc.

Despite not having ranged weapons, it actually makes sense given their orientations. As an entity obsessed with combat and gathering skulls and inflicting bloodshed, Khorne and his daemons epitomize the martial prowess of war which includes ranged combat. You can see that already from how Khorne is the only one with a dedicated ranged platform with the Skull Cannon. Similarly, with Slaanesh being the Prince of Excess, this could also include the pursuit of perfection in war as well, which includes ranged combat. So it's not out of line for fluff at all, even if GW criminally underutilizes these themes/stats.

I'm sold, I'd not thought of khorne as a marksman but it does make sense.

Most of the Khorne specific daemon engines have been BS3 for a while now. Klos, Brass Scorpion, Kytan Ravager, all those guys know how to shoot.

Jidmah wrote:The rules are a vehicle to create fluffy armies and games on the tabletop.

Single parts of a datasheet looked at in a vacuum are not related to fluff at all, because you can't represent an entire universe with D6 and mostly single digit stats.

It's also worth noting that much of the opinions on fluff flung around here are not backed up by references to any sources, making the whole discussion even worse.

People care more about their personal headcannon more than any lore you can actually quote. You can cite all the lore you want to support your position, but if it doesn't match some folks headcannon, they'll just ignore it. Trust me.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.

Also, the irony of space marine fanboys complaining that a stat change from WS4+ to WS3+ "goes against established lore and statlines since 3rd ed"...

Marines were A1 W1 for HOW long exactly? And rapid fired at half range for HOW long?

Weird how that change was some fantastic return to lore, but this is a break from lore to make a certain type of unit more competitive for soulless tournament play...

literally the ONLY person I see complaining about this is the OP. no one else has an issue with it.

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Lore is great until it is not. If lore is creating negative player experience then you must change the experience even if it goes somewhat against the lore.

Also, the irony of space marine fanboys complaining that a stat change from WS4+ to WS3+ "goes against established lore and statlines since 3rd ed"...

Marines were A1 W1 for HOW long exactly? And rapid fired at half range for HOW long?

Weird how that change was some fantastic return to lore, but this is a break from lore to make a certain type of unit more competitive for soulless tournament play...

literally the ONLY person I see complaining about this is the OP. no one else has an issue with it.

You've not been reading the thread then, as at least one other poster have argued against it.

It's a good change, now they don't have to compete with units that just hit much better than they do.