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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Except people who don't like this change are precisely the ones who don't look at it in the vacuum. SM/CSM design was that they always had better stats than other units in the game and were only matched by elites such as aspect warriors, most dangerous tyranids, or best made necrons. Now with every clown and his uncle getting 3+ the marines should go to 2+ for parity (of completely lose both their game and fluff niche) - gee, do you see a tiny problem here?

So you agree that demon engines should be 3+

Is a daemon a space marine?

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Except people who don't like this change are precisely the ones who don't look at it in the vacuum. SM/CSM design was that they always had better stats than other units in the game and were only matched by elites such as aspect warriors, most dangerous tyranids, or best made necrons. Now with every clown and his uncle getting 3+ the marines should go to 2+ for parity (of completely lose both their game and fluff niche) - gee, do you see a tiny problem here?

So you agree that demon engines should be 3+

Is a daemon a space marine?

What Codex are Daemon Engines in?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.

But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?

Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.

That isn't true.

OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?

You haven't provided evidence for your assertion yet, though.

If anything, I'd say your quote actually provides evidence to it being a Daemon of power-it says "is entrapped a Denizen of the Warp," as-in, one. You really think a single Plaguebearer can provide a 5++ to an entire tank? Or a single Bloodletter the same?

Well a single daemon gives a soul grinder a 5++ so sure.

Here's a fluff segment for blood slaughterers:

"They bear a clear resemblance to the greater Brass Scorpions of Khorne, yet Inquisitors and savants know not to rely on mere appearance when attempting to comprehend anything about the workings of Chaos. Brass Scorpions are almost certainly higher-order daemons of Khorne given physical, albeit mechanical, form by the rituals of the Dark Magi.

Blood Slaughterers, however, appear to be machines constructed for the purpose of binding a daemon inside their shell. Unlike the Brass Scorpion, the body of the Blood Slaughterer has also been observed to mount a containment vessel thought to contain the bound essence of a daemon of the Warp."

At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.

That doesn't support your assertion.

Nothing there says the Warpsmith just plucks a random Khorne Daemon. It'd make sense that the more powerful the engine, the more powerful the Daemon you need-so a Defiler might have something halfway between a Herald and a Greater, while a Maulerfiend might have a more ordinary Herald.

And a Brass Scorpion, well, that's bound to have a very potent daemon indeed.

Edit: And I'd be fine with 3+ Horrors and Bearers. I don't think it's needed, but it certainly wouldn't break the setting or anything.

It doesn't change the assertion either way, greater daemons are top of the food chain, so if we assume a scoprion is a greater or exalted at best, it's implied a blood slaughterer is of lower standing, so herald at highest.

A "denizen of the warp" has no power level assigned to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Except people who don't like this change are precisely the ones who don't look at it in the vacuum. SM/CSM design was that they always had better stats than other units in the game and were only matched by elites such as aspect warriors, most dangerous tyranids, or best made necrons. Now with every clown and his uncle getting 3+ the marines should go to 2+ for parity (of completely lose both their game and fluff niche) - gee, do you see a tiny problem here?

So you agree that demon engines should be 3+

Is a daemon a space marine?

What Codex are Daemon Engines in?

Chaos space marines, death guard, thousand sons and daemons.

Are they space marines?

Bonus points, cultists are in codex chaos space marines.

Dudeface wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.

But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?

Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.

That isn't true.

OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?

I'm not the one who needs to provide evidence, because I'm not the one making claims in defiance of reality. There is no fluff stating or implying that the entities in daemon engines are of the "standard low ranking daemons" variety. Nothing. That's the point; what we do have is ambiguous because daemons by their very nature defy easy characterization. You are making assumptions based on your own interpretation of the lore which appears based on nothing more than the fact that daemon engines have had a 4+/4+ on the tabletop for many years. These assumptions of yours are not stupid or unreasonable, but nor are they facts.

Read through any CSM codex. You won't find anything - not a single quote - indicating that the entities in daemon engines are generally "low ranking". You also won't, of course, find anything indicating that they have to be "high ranking", or something analogous to heralds, that sort of thing. Logic & lore dictates that the stronger an entity the harder it is to control, but the kinds of figures throwing daemons into specially made engines of war aren't exactly amateurs.

At the end of the day, what I'm saying is that the lore surrounding daemon engines, as well as daemons themselves, is extremely amorphous and flexible. This change to a 3+/3+ is just as justifiable in the lore as a 4+/4+ ever was. That's really all there is to it. Your opinion that daemon engines should have been kept at a 4+/4+ is totally valid, but is also not worth writing 234,487 posts about it, because there's nothing to back you up, and implying that CSM fans happy with the change to a 3+/3+ are somehow in defiance of the lore is simply wrong.

 Baragash wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Back when "demonic possession" was a vehicle upgrade in the 3.5 dex it didn't lower BS. So I see this as a return to form.

IIRC in 2nd Ed it was a buff to BS5 as Daemons were (on average) WS/BS5 compared to a marine’s 4, then daemons got a relative nerfing for the new edition.

Lore and stats evolve *shrugs*

Yes, but the point is that OP's complaints are baseless.

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Oddly nobody is pushing for increases on cultists, pox walkers or plaguebearers. Given the engines move to 3+, I'd hope their piloting daemons do as well.

There are more demons that hit on 3's than demons that hit on 4's currently


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I find this thread quite funny. I think it was more a twist of the setting to make CSM lose all of their Meltabombs or veteran abilities than turn the statline of Daemon engines into proper monsters.

agreed 100%.

But are you happy with 3+ horrors and plague bearers?

am i happy? No, rolling so many dice only to see like 3-4 wound feels terrible. I play Tzeetch and slaanesh so i dont know how well plaguebearers do with a 4+, my horrors are painfully annoying. I wish they had a 3+ and less shots to compensate. Less dice = better in ym opinion

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Fair enough-my bad on the Tzeentch Herald. I run Nurgle, so I never really look at that god.

But are you saying that it'd make more sense for a Plagueburst Crawler to be powered by a simple Plaguebearer than a Herald or something similar?

Basically, most fluff points to it being standard low ranking daemons plucked against their will when being summoned, so low ranking daemons.

That isn't true.

OK, can you provide evidence to the contrary?

I'm not the one who needs to provide evidence, because I'm not the one making claims in defiance of reality. There is no fluff stating or implying that the entities in daemon engines are of the "standard low ranking daemons" variety. Nothing. That's the point; what we do have is ambiguous because daemons by their very nature defy easy characterization. You are making assumptions based on your own interpretation of the lore which appears based on nothing more than the fact that daemon engines have had a 4+/4+ on the tabletop for many years. These assumptions of yours are not stupid or unreasonable, but nor are they facts.

Read through any CSM codex. You won't find anything - not a single quote - indicating that the entities in daemon engines are generally "low ranking". You also won't, of course, find anything indicating that they have to be "high ranking", or something analogous to heralds, that sort of thing. Logic & lore dictates that the stronger an entity the harder it is to control, but the kinds of figures throwing daemons into specially made engines of war aren't exactly amateurs.

At the end of the day, what I'm saying is that the lore surrounding daemon engines, as well as daemons themselves, is extremely amorphous and flexible. This change to a 3+/3+ is just as justifiable in the lore as a 4+/4+ ever was. That's really all there is to it. Your opinion that daemon engines should have been kept at a 4+/4+ is totally valid, but is also not worth writing 234,487 posts about it, because there's nothing to back you up, and implying that CSM fans happy with the change to a 3+/3+ are somehow in defiance of the lore is simply wrong.

Very fair and reasonable post and I agree, there's nothing backing up either side beyond a long standing history of profiles.

You almost managed a reasonable post with only 1 needling insult but I'll let that slide.

Plaguebearers aren't gonna kill much of anything without buffs.

But you can stack a crapload of buffs on them, including a +1 to-hit buff, so...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Oddly nobody is pushing for increases on cultists, pox walkers or plaguebearers. Given the engines move to 3+, I'd hope their piloting daemons do as well.

There are more demons that hit on 3's than demons that hit on 4's currently


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I find this thread quite funny. I think it was more a twist of the setting to make CSM lose all of their Meltabombs or veteran abilities than turn the statline of Daemon engines into proper monsters.

agreed 100%.

But are you happy with 3+ horrors and plague bearers?

am i happy? No, rolling so many dice only to see like 3-4 wound feels terrible. I play Tzeetch and slaanesh so i dont know how well plaguebearers do with a 4+, my horrors are painfully annoying. I wish they had a 3+ and less shots to compensate. Less dice = better in ym opinion

I agree with that, but i kinda wish the stats inflation hadn't hit the point where they have to have so many shots to be worthwhile with a 4+.

There is a bigger issue at play game wide there.

Dudeface wrote:

Is a daemon a space marine?

No, but demon engines are....

And yes, cultists are, but they fulfill a different role in the codex. Their only purpose is to be chaff used by the big boys, hence their gak stats and the existence of the "cannon fodder" stratagem.

feth it, I've had a few beers, some good points have been raised that aren't "I want my stuff to be better" and I've been persuaded that I'm both in the minority and times change.

As such I'll ask the thread be closed.

Dudeface wrote:
You almost managed a reasonable post with only 1 needling insult but I'll let that slide.

In the spirit of a reasoned discussion then, perhaps next time consider phrasing your hypothesis in such a way that doesn't imply that people that disagree with you are prepared to take a bonus at expense of the lore, e.g.

Dudeface wrote:
It seems to work, people love their stuff to be as powerful as possible at the cost of any wider thought.

At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.

That just implies Mortarion is an idiot when building his engines of war.

If anything I would assume the daemon in the engine would rely greatly on the craftsman rather than a universal RNG.

The Daemon Primarch Mortarion himself perfected the designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers as a labour of pure spite. The Death Lord sought to create a superlative mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard's superiority over their corpse-worshipping former kin.

For many solar months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on the Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge.

"Remarkable intellect" and "outclass any comparative Imperial weapon" kinda implies that Mortarion knows what he is doing and what he is summoning into the machines.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Is a daemon a space marine?

No, but demon engines are....

No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:

At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.

That just implies Mortarion is an idiot when building his engines of war.

If anything I would assume the daemon in the engine would rely greatly on the craftsman rather than a universal RNG.

The Daemon Primarch Mortarion himself perfected the designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers as a labour of pure spite. The Death Lord sought to create a superlative mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard's superiority over their corpse-worshipping former kin.

For many solar months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on the Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge.

"Remarkable intellect" and "outclass any comparative Imperial weapon" kinda implies that Mortarion knows what he is doing and what he is summoning into the machines.

No, it implies it's talking about the weapon on said artillery piece.

For those interested, IA13 contains information about how Daemon Engines are created, and it does sound like the kinds of entities being worked with are a little more dangerous than lesser daemons:



Still ambiguous as to their "ranking", as I noted above, but I still like the weightiness of it all. There are also examples of e.g. Soul Grinders, where the daemon contained within is one of the "mightiest of daemons":



I would point out that Soul Grinders, one of the "mightiest of daemons" (and counted among the highest tier of daemon engines in the book), currently only has a WS & BS of 4+.

Inquisitorial texts also mention that true daemon engines are actually quite rare, certainly not the kinds of meat shields that Irbis incorrectly cited earlier:



There's a lot more there but you get the idea. I think we're done here

e: spelling

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Is a daemon a space marine?

No, but demon engines are....

No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:

At worst a daemon engine has a random daemon of varying import stuck in it.

That just implies Mortarion is an idiot when building his engines of war.

If anything I would assume the daemon in the engine would rely greatly on the craftsman rather than a universal RNG.

The Daemon Primarch Mortarion himself perfected the designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers as a labour of pure spite. The Death Lord sought to create a superlative mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard's superiority over their corpse-worshipping former kin.

For many solar months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on the Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge.

"Remarkable intellect" and "outclass any comparative Imperial weapon" kinda implies that Mortarion knows what he is doing and what he is summoning into the machines.

No, it implies it's talking about the weapon on said artillery piece.

I'd just let it go man. The vast majority have spoken and they're in favour of the change. There admittedly is no real fluff one way or the other as it's ambiguous.

The best we can hope for is a community article with "guess what, those daemons have gotten used to their shells so now hit on 3's" and we carry on with the game and hope we don't keep seeing all factions get accuracy boosts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marshal Loss wrote:


There are also examples of e.g. Soul Grinders, where the daemon contained within is one of the "mightiest of daemons":

Spoiler:

I would point out that Soul Grinders, one of the "mightiest of daemons" (and counted among the highest tier of daemon engines in the book), currently only has a WS & BS of 4+.

So does that mean:

I think we're done here

But I agree its clearly ambiguous beyond existing stats on units, its going to be subjective as to what feels correct but at the end of the day the stats are what they are.

"I think we're done here" = "the discussion has dried up" & "I can't be bothered further". You're welcome to believe what you will............

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Is a daemon a space marine?

No, but demon engines are....

No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.

Just saying i lost an argument doesnt mean i did.
Why do you disagree that demon engines in the CSM codexes are CSM units?
Because there isnt actual space marines driving it? Because by that logic, drop pods aren't space marines...

 Marshal Loss wrote:
"I think we're done here" = "the discussion has dried up". You're welcome to believe what you will

Agreed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Is a daemon a space marine?

No, but demon engines are....

No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.

Just saying i lost an argument doesnt mean i did.
Why do you disagree that demon engines in the CSM codexes are CSM units?
Because there isnt actual space marines driving it? Because by that logic, drop pods aren't space marines...

Drop pods shouldn't be hitting on 3's. Indeed deathstorm pods used to hit on 5s and currently hit on 4's due to the lack of a marine to fire it.

Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.

Dudeface wrote:



Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.

No, because the codex fluff states that cultists are a chaff unit. It states no such thing about demon engines.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:



Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.

No, because the codex fluff states that cultists are a chaff unit. It states no such thing about demon engines.

You've lost me. You argue a daemon engine must hit on 3s because it's a space marine unit, but other space marine units can't hit on 3s because they're intended to die?

Why can't chaff hit on 3s?

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:



Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.

No, because the codex fluff states that cultists are a chaff unit. It states no such thing about demon engines.

You've lost me. You argue a daemon engine must hit on 3s because it's a space marine unit, but other space marine units can't hit on 3s because they're intended to die?

Why can't chaff hit on 3s?

You clearly lack the reading comprehension to follow VH's argument, or to make arguments about what the fluff implies for the power level of demon engines. Leave that discussion to other people in the future please.

40K the game has never in its history given a gak about the fluff.

Also something that's important to note is that the connections between game mechanics and fluff is flimsy at best and depends entirely on PoV. I can easily argue that daemon engines being BS3+ is fluffier than them being BS4+, for example.

Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:



Further, cultists are a chaos space marine unit. By your logic they are and should hit on 3s.

No, because the codex fluff states that cultists are a chaff unit. It states no such thing about demon engines.

You've lost me. You argue a daemon engine must hit on 3s because it's a space marine unit, but other space marine units can't hit on 3s because they're intended to die?

Why can't chaff hit on 3s?

You clearly lack the reading comprehension to follow VH's argument, or to make arguments about what the fluff implies for the power level of demon engines. Leave that discussion to other people in the future please.

Please illuminate me, VH argued the daemon engines should be bs/ws3 because they're in the chaos space marine codex, nothing more or less.

What have I incorrectly interpreted there? If you extrapolate that logic, why shouldn't everything in the book be bs/ws3 because it's in the chaos marine book.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Is a daemon a space marine?

No, but demon engines are....

And yes, cultists are, but they fulfill a different role in the codex. Their only purpose is to be chaff used by the big boys, hence their gak stats and the existence of the "cannon fodder" stratagem.

This is incorrect. A daemon engine is not a chaos space marine and does not have a chaos space marine piloting it either.

ok i'l dumb it down.

CSM units hit on 3.
Demon engines are a CSM unit.
Cultists hit on 4 because theyre meant to be nothing more than bodies used by the rest of the army.

Its the same concept as Servitors hitting on 5's (or 4's with a tech-dude), theyre purposely expendably units in their armies.

I like pie. Pie is good.

I like cake. Cake is good.

I like the idea of Daemon Engines getting BS 3+ because that feels more accurate to me, for no reason but my arbitrary feelings on the subject. I like the look of Daemon Engines. A force that focuses on them would be my second-list that I plan to build for my Chaos Marines, having accumulated a 2nd edition Terminators, Dreads and Land Raider with Abbadon as the first force.

It feels like the right place to put them, for me.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
ok i'l dumb it down.

CSM units hit on 3.
Demon engines are a CSM unit.
Cultists hit on 4 because theyre meant to be nothing more than bodies used by the rest of the army.

Its the same concept as Servitors hitting on 5's (or 4's with a tech-dude), theyre purposely expendably units in their armies.

Yeah I get that, but just because it sits in codex X doesn't mean it has to ape every other unit in the codex.

A soul grinder as noted above is in the daemons codex with ws/bs4+

You're selectively applying your logic there

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
ok i'l dumb it down.

CSM units hit on 3.
Demon engines are a CSM unit.
Cultists hit on 4 because theyre meant to be nothing more than bodies used by the rest of the army.

Its the same concept as Servitors hitting on 5's (or 4's with a tech-dude), theyre purposely expendably units in their armies.

Yeah I get that, but just because it sits in codex X doesn't mean it has to ape every other unit in the codex.

A soul grinder as noted above is in the daemons codex with ws/bs4+

You're selectively applying your logic there

Look, its clear you've made up your mind on the subject, which is fine. I'm just presenting you with my argument that CSM are mostly an elite army. Having demon engines that hit on 4 makes them feel not elite. Cultists are fine with bs/ws 4 because theyre explicitely meant to be a bad/cheap unit, demon engines aren't. And anyways, i don't think cultists should be in the CSM codex but thats a whole other thread.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
ok i'l dumb it down.

CSM units hit on 3.
Demon engines are a CSM unit.
Cultists hit on 4 because theyre meant to be nothing more than bodies used by the rest of the army.

Its the same concept as Servitors hitting on 5's (or 4's with a tech-dude), theyre purposely expendably units in their armies.

Yeah I get that, but just because it sits in codex X doesn't mean it has to ape every other unit in the codex.

A soul grinder as noted above is in the daemons codex with ws/bs4+

You're selectively applying your logic there

Look, its clear you've made up your mind on the subject, which is fine. I'm just presenting you with my argument that CSM are mostly an elite army. Having demon engines that hit on 4 makes them feel not elite. Cultists are fine with bs/ws 4 because theyre explicitely meant to be a bad/cheap unit, demon engines aren't. And anyways, i don't think cultists should be in the CSM codex but thats a whole other thread.

Agree entirely that lost & damned should be a thing, and if your view is you want stuff to have better stats to feel more elite that's fine as well.

Ultimately it's irrelevant since it will be what it will be, I appreciate the discussion.

Personally my issue is the other way around. The rules are always being twisted around to suit whatever arbitrary fluff reasons GW decide is now the new truth. That's been my experience with basically every Necron codex release since Matt Ward started the trend in 5th edition. I know some other factions are lucky to have had more statistically stable armies until now though though.