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Dudeface wrote:
Please illuminate me, VH argued the daemon engines should be bs/ws3 because they're in the chaos space marine codex, nothing more or less.

What have I incorrectly interpreted there? If you extrapolate that logic, why shouldn't everything in the book be bs/ws3 because it's in the chaos marine book.

The difference is that, unlike in your headcanon, the actual 40k material does not portray demon engines as expendable troops but rather expensive and effective pieces of materiel. Cultists are noted as being expendable, hence their diminished statline.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Is a daemon a space marine?

No, but demon engines are....

No, they are not. You automatically lost the argument.
Also Cultists are in the same exact codex, so we should increase them to WS/BS3+ for the consistency you're apparently craving.

Just saying i lost an argument doesnt mean i did.
Why do you disagree that demon engines in the CSM codexes are CSM units?
Because there isnt actual space marines driving it? Because by that logic, drop pods aren't space marines...

And Drop Pods shouldn't have a BS3+ for their gun just because they're in a codex with Space Marines. Ball's in your court.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
ok i'l dumb it down.

CSM units hit on 3.
Demon engines are a CSM unit.
Cultists hit on 4 because theyre meant to be nothing more than bodies used by the rest of the army.

Its the same concept as Servitors hitting on 5's (or 4's with a tech-dude), theyre purposely expendably units in their armies.

Yeah I get that, but just because it sits in codex X doesn't mean it has to ape every other unit in the codex.

A soul grinder as noted above is in the daemons codex with ws/bs4+

You're selectively applying your logic there

Look, its clear you've made up your mind on the subject, which is fine. I'm just presenting you with my argument that CSM are mostly an elite army. Having demon engines that hit on 4 makes them feel not elite. Cultists are fine with bs/ws 4 because theyre explicitely meant to be a bad/cheap unit, demon engines aren't. And anyways, i don't think cultists should be in the CSM codex but thats a whole other thread.

Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?

Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?

It sounds like you are arguing that they should be hitting on a 4+ without powerfists as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?

Terminators hit on 3 tho. The penalty is because you chose to run them with a specific weapon. If youre gonna waste my time with false equivalences, i'm not gonna engag with you further

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?

It sounds like you are arguing that they should be hitting on a 4+ without powerfists as well.

If the complaint is that hitting on a 4+ is never Elite, no "Elite" unit should ever suffer a hit penalty with base gear that would do so. Is that correct?

Or should we accept the very premise that was set up by Vladimir was really fething stupid to begin with? I think the latter makes a lot more sense especially with that pathetic defense using the Drop Pod.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?

Terminators hit on 3 tho. The penalty is because you chose to run them with a specific weapon. If youre gonna waste my time with false equivalences, i'm not gonna engag with you further

They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.

And Drop Pods shouldn't have a BS3+ for their gun just because they're in a codex with Space Marines. Ball's in your court.

Drop Pods utility isn't really to kill, but to deliver troops. PBC and MBL are there to kill units, not deliver troops or deep strike. You are comparing very incomparable things. The ball hasn't left your court yet.

Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?

Your argument would hold water if all the terminator weapons hit on 4+, not just the Power Fist. I do find it amusing that you are using Power Fists in your argument as they have changed in the game due to rulesets evolving.

There is also an argument to be made that 4+ is quite average considering that Imperial Guard, which tends to have 4+ BS. Does that, according to your argument, then make Imperial Guard an elite army?

I'll be blunt. I think it is pretty much nonsense to argue that 3+ or 4+ is a question of lore as A) six-sided dice don't leave a lot of room for options to begin with, and B) nowhere in the lore does it read "When Mortarion perfected his cruel creation he made sure that it would only hit on a 4+ in honor of his daemon patriarch. A labor of love he had to mold that ballistic skill with great precision and intellect. He would not suffer his creation to exceed the 3+ ballistic skill of his infantry. "

Seriously, there is nothing in the lore that explicitly states this. I get moving from 4+ to 3+ rulewise can potentially improve the ruleset and make the item in question viable when you can't buff it with rerolls as before(people seem to forget that this is very likely going to happen to DG). What I don't get is when people claim some obscure, yet explicit, lore that claims that 3+ is somehow unfluffy. So we are arguing between a verifiable thing(ruleset) and unverifiable thing(unwritten head canon of a select few).

People also seem to forget that Myphitic Blight-Launchers were hitting on 3+ because of their squad rule, but apparently it's in vogue to hate on Death Guard right now. I mean, if we are just going to state our head-canon as fact I'll just say that in my head-canon Daemon Engines are supernatural, terrifying and lethal creatures

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
]
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.

Nope! You insisting you won an argument just makes it look more and mote like you lost.

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
]
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.

Nope! You insisting you won an argument just makes it look more and mote like you lost.

Maulerfiend: Hits on a 4+ with its fists
Terminator or Aggressor: Hits on a 4+ with its fists or hammers

So why are Terminators "elite" feeling and Maulerfiends aren't? Or are you creating mental gymnastics that the 3+ is in the profile, and Maulerfiends would be just as elite if they had WS3+ but -1 to hit on their fists?

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
]
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.

Nope! You insisting you won an argument just makes it look more and mote like you lost.

Not to bring up politics but it reminds me of a certain someone...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
]
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.

Nope! You insisting you won an argument just makes it look more and mote like you lost.

Maulerfiend: Hits on a 4+ with its fists
Terminator or Aggressor: Hits on a 4+ with its fists or hammers

So why are Terminators "elite" feeling and Maulerfiends aren't? Or are you creating mental gymnastics that the 3+ is in the profile, and Maulerfiends would be just as elite if they had WS3+ but -1 to hit on their fists?

No, maulerfiends hit on 4 with any weapons.
Terminator hit on 3, with a -1 to hit if you chose to play them with anti-tank weaponry.

If terminators were BW/WS 4+ on the datasheet your argument would mean something, right now youre just being daft.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
]
They don't with the base wargear they get via Thunder hammers and Power Fists. Therefore they aren't elite. Thanks for playing.

Nope! You insisting you won an argument just makes it look more and mote like you lost.

Maulerfiend: Hits on a 4+ with its fists
Terminator or Aggressor: Hits on a 4+ with its fists or hammers

So why are Terminators "elite" feeling and Maulerfiends aren't? Or are you creating mental gymnastics that the 3+ is in the profile, and Maulerfiends would be just as elite if they had WS3+ but -1 to hit on their fists?

Terminators hit on 3s with chainaxes, lightning claws, power swords, power mauls, etc, etc. They only hit on 4s with power fists, thunder hammers, and chainfists because those are big, bulky, unwieldy weapons, but they're so elite they still hit 50% of the time with them. Give those same weapons to something not elite, that normally hits on 4s, and suddenly it's hitting only 33% of the time. Give them to something clumsy, say WS5, and it's only hitting 16% of the time. But terminators can still hit 50% of the time with them. That makes them elite. Give a WS3 Maulerfiend a weapon with more damage, AP, and strength than it's normal fists that's -1 to hit with and it would still be elite, same as when hitting on 3s with its normal fists. You know this.

I wouldn't say the game is more or less heading down that hole. However I will say that saying " balance " is a good reason for them to mix up the game state and make things better or worse at breakneck pace and push whats good or bad way faster than usual.

Now none of us want years of having things suck, but they don't tend to really do much balancing for all things, at least not well. It seems more like let something be overly good, then nerf it, then un nerf it then mix it around. While at the same time letting some units that have sucked for a long time, still suck drop after drop and chance after chance.

I wish the balance stuff was actually about making things viable and less about just moving around flavor of the month like a shell game.

Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Please illuminate me, VH argued the daemon engines should be bs/ws3 because they're in the chaos space marine codex, nothing more or less.

What have I incorrectly interpreted there? If you extrapolate that logic, why shouldn't everything in the book be bs/ws3 because it's in the chaos marine book.

The difference is that, unlike in your headcanon, the actual 40k material does not portray demon engines as expendable troops but rather expensive and effective pieces of materiel. Cultists are noted as being expendable, hence their diminished statline.

You criticise my reading comprehension but you're all over the place with this.

VH posed that daemon engines should hit on 3's purely because they're a chaos space marine unit. Drop pods hit on 3's purely because they're a space marine unit (which is daft).

Cultists are a chaos space marine unit, therefore following the same logical approach they should hit on 3's. It's really not a complicated process.

I don't think cultists should hit on 3's, likewise I never asserted they weren't cannon fodder. But I also don't think a cannon fodder unit should be restricted from hitting on 3's and in fact many are. I reference you to daemonettes, blood letters for horde units hitting on 3's.

You're needlessly offensive with your posts, VH who you're defending manages to stand their ground without petty insults, maybe try to live up to that standard.

I also sat and thought about BS/ws in general. There are more "elite" armies than not now I think? Only orks (bs) and tau (ws) being below average and guard, nids and tau (bs) being the only majority average armies.

Dudeface wrote:
...I also sat and thought about BS/ws in general. There are more "elite" armies than not now I think? Only orks (bs) and tau (ws) being below average and guard, nids and tau (bs) being the only majority average armies...

Which is about par for GW design. They figure everyone needs to be cool, and end up compressing their own design space to achieve it. Look at the evolution of Ld and Ld-related rules from 3rd through 7th; people complain about Sweeping Advances, but by the end of 7th just about everyone was pretty immune to the morale mechanics.

Dudeface wrote:


VH posed that daemon engines should hit on 3's purely because they're a chaos space marine unit. Drop pods hit on 3's purely because they're a space marine unit (which is daft).

This was a sarcastic response to your insistence that because demon engines weren't space marines they weren't elite units.

Dudeface wrote:
Cultists are a chaos space marine unit, therefore following the same logical approach they should hit on 3's. It's really not a complicated process.

Except it would not be logical to use the same approach on cultists because they're stated to be an expendable unit not up to the par of Traitor Astartes, unlike demon engines. You're basically trying to imply thst demon engines occupy the same tier of eliteness in the CSM codex as cultists, which is laughable.

Dudeface wrote:

I don't think cultists should hit on 3's, likewise I never asserted they weren't cannon fodder. But I also don't think a cannon fodder unit should be restricted from hitting on 3's and in fact many are. I reference you to daemonettes, blood letters for horde units hitting on 3's.

Hmmm, and if those ws 3+ units are shoved inside a demon engine they'd hit on 3's there too, seems to make sense.

Dudeface wrote:

You're needlessly offensive with your posts, VH who you're defending manages to stand their ground without petty insults, maybe try to live up to that standard.

There have already many people in this thread who have calmly and patiently explained to you why you're wrong with references from books. I'm trying a blunt approach because politeness doesn't work on you.

Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


VH posed that daemon engines should hit on 3's purely because they're a chaos space marine unit. Drop pods hit on 3's purely because they're a space marine unit (which is daft).

This was a sarcastic response to your insistence that because demon engines weren't space marines they weren't elite units.

Don't follow, a drop pod isn't a space marine, it hits on 3's, it shouldn't. If anything that actually proves the point? Or are you saying drop pods are elite units?

Dudeface wrote:
Cultists are a chaos space marine unit, therefore following the same logical approach they should hit on 3's. It's really not a complicated process.

Except it would not be logical to use the same approach on cultists because they're stated to be an expendable unit not up to the par of Traitor Astartes, unlike demon engines. You're basically trying to imply thst demon engines occupy the same tier of eliteness in the CSM codex as cultists, which is laughable.

I agree it is laughable, I'm arguing that they're as accurate as a trained human, who are clearly so bad as to be laughable.

Dudeface wrote:

I don't think cultists should hit on 3's, likewise I never asserted they weren't cannon fodder. But I also don't think a cannon fodder unit should be restricted from hitting on 3's and in fact many are. I reference you to daemonettes, blood letters for horde units hitting on 3's.

Hmmm, and if those ws 3+ units are shoved inside a demon engine they'd hit on 3's there too, seems to make sense.

Glad you agree, so why are 4+/4+ nurgle daemons hitting on 3s in engines then?

Dudeface wrote:

You're needlessly offensive with your posts, VH who you're defending manages to stand their ground without petty insults, maybe try to live up to that standard.

There have already many people in this thread who have calmly and patiently explained to you why you're wrong with references from books. I'm trying a blunt approach because politeness doesn't work on you.

Dudeface, we are at 5 pages now and you have provided exactly zero fluff support for a single thing you have said outside of the statlines in old codices which are not fluff.

It's really time to either bring in those quotes or wiki articles or anything really OR concede that your issue with daemon engines going to 3+ is not related to fluff at all.

 Jidmah wrote:
Dudeface, we are at 5 pages now and you have provided exactly zero fluff support for a single thing you have said outside of the statlines in old codices which are not fluff.

It's really time to either bring in those quotes or wiki articles or anything really OR concede that your issue with daemon engines going to 3+ is not related to fluff at all.

I've stated a few times now it's been shown by others there isn’t a conclusive statement either way and I'm happy to roll with it going forwards in spite of my feelings.

I do worry about a blandening of profiles but that isn't a fluff issue agreed.

In honesty I think I need a break from this community for a bit, maybe just in general.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hitting on a 4+ is plenty elite. Or should we argue that Terminators and Aggressors should have no hit penalty on their Power Fists?

Terminators hit on 3 tho. The penalty is because you chose to run them with a specific weapon. If youre gonna waste my time with false equivalences, i'm not gonna engag with you further

Sometimes even on 2s. SW dudes have +1 to hit pretty much everytime so their fists/hammer do swing on 3s typically.

It'd be better for everyone if they just calmed down a wee bit.

Is just toy soldiers after all yeah ?

Gonna put a -- temp ? -- lock on this for now after far too many alerts/infractions and a few requests, does seem the thread has run its course anyhow.