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 greatbigtree wrote:
...But I do that every single time. Once you know the order of operations, it’s just following procedure. And that takes all of reading the Codex rules twice to see that wombo-combo. Write yourself a cheat sheet. ...

Exactly. And if you don't have the stuff that intersects efficiently with the stratagems because the developers forgot to give it a stratagem, or because the GW rules team is busy gloating about defeating Forge World by making all the minis useless, or because you took two different small units instead of one max-size unit, or because you don't like blowing a huge amount of points on characters, or because GW decided that characters shouldn't interact with vehicles anymore this edition, you're sitting at a disadvantage because you don't have the combo-pieces and you're down to trying to play with statblocks alone, which is a losing proposition for some armies.

I'm not saying you should be able to dump a rummage-sale bin of only stuff from thirty years ago on the table and be able to win games, I'm saying that the selection of things that can win games in 9e is much, much narrower than people seem to think.

If time is a constraint, then don't forget you have to spend time painting the minis too. Playing grey is so lame. If you like the 40k universe, then Kill Team is the way to go if you are light on time. Games are quicker and much fewer models means less painting before you hit the tables. If you later upgrade to 40k proper then all those same minis you painted for KT can still be used in 40k.

Or could look some of the other specialist games like Warcry, Necromunda or Bloodbowl.

If you're budget conscious and on a time limit, I'd stick to Kill-Team. It's probably getting some support coming down the pipe (be that a new edition or something else) which will likely reinvigorate things if your local scene is lacking. Since you use 40k models anyway, it's I doubt it'd be difficult to get a game anyway even if you have to ask around a little. If you're personally trying to grow a community then it's definitely going to be an easier sell to people than when their eyes go wide at seeing 40k's prices.

As somebody who is extremely critical of GW and barely touches it's products anymore, I'd strongly consider Underworlds - it's pretty tightly balanced by GW standards (which is to say, it's still got glaring issues), isn't horrific on the wallet and the games range on average around half an hour to forty-five minutes. The main downside is if you're strong into the narrative, the warbands are tightly defined by named characters, but as a game unto itself I enjoy it a lot. Cards/decks are also a major component, which might get some of the MTG crowd to peak their head in.

A good point about Blood Bowl, too. With a new “season” starting, it should be easy to get some fresh blood into the store.

A team (used to?) max out at 16 players, and the support / sideline models were always optional, like cheerleaders and assistant coaches... if they still exist.

I find games typically take about 1.5 hrs to 2 hrs to play. Again, older editions but I expect it remains about the same. If you do like the idea of an ongoing, campaign style game, BB is perfect as your players gain new skills, abilities, and value.


@ Ano:

Edition change is designed to shake up the meta and stimulate people to buy new things. I just started Tau for 9th edition, buying up used collections from people online. I am, essentially, bringing a garage sale army to the table. You seem to be projecting a lot of malice onto GW for the changes and “mistakes” they’ve made. Maybe the models you love aren’t at peak performance this edition. I’m told Tau are at the bottom of the stack, and I’m still winning games as a rookie with Tau. Maybe a change of tactics would help. Try to reimagine your army as needing to take and hold centrally located objectives. A mixture of durable models, and fodder models, as well as fast moving models and Killy models. For myself, as a TAC list builder, 9th edition is very rewarding to people that like to play a little bit of everything in a list. Hopefully this helps to stir up some ideas for you, so you can better enjoy 9th edition.

Yeah I feel like that's kind of how it's always been. There's always stuff to complain about but there's always a nugget of an entertaining game in there if you work for it.

From what little I've been reading it seems like some people really don't like the stratagems and compare it to a card game but I played enough MTG to not be bothered. I've seen a lot of other games having similar features or command dice and so on and I've always thought they seem to kind of neat.

This is either the best or worst time to return... They've got codex's for Angels and Eldar of the Dark variety next month, two of my favorites, plus some kinda kill team release around the same time.

 greatbigtree wrote:
...Hopefully this helps to stir up some ideas for you, so you can better enjoy 9th edition.

People who like 9e love to tell me that it must be because I'm losing and they can totally help me build a spammy netlist and then I can have fun again, the tournament winrates definitely prove that it's not possible that someone isn't having fun. I don't want help building a list, my fun is not solely defined by whether I'm winning or not. I don't like the fact that three Space Marines shouting at your squad just right lets you kill a Knight with knives. I don't like the fact that anything your opponent gets line of sight to dies immediately. I don't like the fact that dedicated anti-tank weapons are often inferior to spamming the mid-stat option, that stratagems determine the value of a unit when there are units that don't get stratagems, antenna-to-antenna line of sight, the fact that vehicles are now just a box of numbers that throw firepower in every direction. I have a Custodes army, if I wanted to win games in 9th I'm perfectly capable of sitting down with an archive of tournament lists and figuring out how to do so.

The point I keep trying to make is that if you want to do the prep work, and are happy buying models because they're good instead of because you like the models, and like the tournament missions, 9th is fine. If you want to play something other than endless king-of-the-hill tournament missions with complex progressive scoring, lists that aren't spammy netlists made up of about 20-30% of the models in the game, or any Forge World models, 9th is pretty bad.


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 GrimDork wrote:
...There's always stuff to complain about but there's always a nugget of an entertaining game in there if you work for it...

As a person who's spent time tearing down and rewriting Warhammer since at least 6th edition I can tell you that if I wanted to make 9e entertaining it'd probably be easier for me to burn it down and start over. The problems are buried too deep under endless band-aid patches and the rules bloat is way out of control.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Again, I have a much different experience. The stratagems are rules, just like any other. A bunch are specific to a unit, or even members of a unit with specific weapons!

You get to know the stratagems like any other rules. I take a Riptide. If I don’t want it to burn itself to death, I need to use the self-repair stratagem as often as I need to.

I need a certain target dead. If I can wound it, I can spend 3 cp to give everything else targeting it +1 to wound. If I keep my Fireblade near my Firewarriors, they get an extra shot at close range. If I use his markerlight I can spend CP to give it d3 extra marker lights, and try to get 5 marker lights on the target so I reroll 1’s to hit, hit on a 3+, and wound on 2+ (probably).

But I do that every single time. Once you know the order of operations, it’s just following procedure. And that takes all of reading the Codex rules twice to see that wombo-combo. Write yourself a cheat sheet.

No edition of 40k has let someone walk up to a table with a box of stuff from a yard sale and have a decent chance of winning. You’ve always had to plan a decent army to have a decent chance. There are a couple more rules in the equation.

Balance? Not enough codices out right now to know for sure. Doom and gloom sells, but the game is really in a good place right now.

Couldn't agree more.

Also, someone said it before, but I would see if you can get a crusade going. We have been running a crusade campaign here, and it has been an absolute riot. games have been fast, fun, and they feel consequential. The buffs and penalties that units can pick up along the way also make using them a real challenge, especially when a unit has died a few times and picked up some penalties. It just really adds a layer that is interesting and narrative, and gives the game a welcome sense of continuation.

Also, the game is a LOT more balanced than I think people give it credit for. There are a lot of people pointing towards win rates and such, but I am honestly not sure how representative that is of the game as a whole, and in narrative and matched play around here we have been pretty even keel for win and loss rates (even my tyranids and black legion lists).

Like greatbigtree states, doom and gloom sells on this forum. Dakka is where you want to go if you want to just bitch about the hobby and sift through the mountains of negativity to find the painting, hobby, and lore threads that really start the think tank a runnin'. For general discussion on the game as a whole, its pretty negative, so please take what is said with a grain of salt.

that also goes for people who are very much happy with game too. Dont just take my word for it, do some additional reading and try a few games if you can line them up with some friends and see what you think.

Welcome back! Kill Team + BattleScribe is a great reintroduction as others have stated. You get 2 factions, rules, and terrain and once you get a couple of games in, they get fast enough to fit your stated time availability. It’s also a really good way to try out different factions without having to commit to a ton of models and codex churn (at least for now, I’m really hoping that the big Kill Team release isn’t Kill Team codices). Also, if you do get a group of regulars, it has rules for campaign play too.

As the spoiler (Warning: there's a lot of pictures in there) will show I am a big fan of Kill Team. Even with all the photos I have in the spoiler, that is still probably less than 1/10th the games of Kill Team I have played. For nearly a year and half I played 2 to 3 games every week. Because it is easy to get new players, create nice looking boards and try out the Troops options for nearly every faction in 40k. Kill Team has its game mechanic quirks, but I like how the designers much of the core mechanics of full 40k and added rules to enhance the skirmish game of it. I would argue to create a better gaming experience, if for nothing else than alternating Phases (it does lose some with how damage is applied).



I would definitely recommend Kill Team as a start to 40k. I am super interested what GW plans to do with the game in the coming year, and I hope it doesn't move too far away from the game they already laid down as it was in a much better position than 8th edition ever was.

 GrimDork wrote:
Hey folks, a game shop that's looking to sell GW and tabletop wargaming stuff has finally, after 20 years on and off in this hobby, finally decided to set up in my sleepy little town.

I'd like to support their choice with my wallet, and just seeing all of those GW goodies in a shop on my way to work has incited some severe nostalgia. And I'm kinda interested, but there are caveats these days. I have a weekly D&D game and multiple children, my time is not what it was. I can't be going down to a shop (when there's no pandemic, of course) to play 3-4 hour games. Even 2 is pushing it probably.

I saw there was a new edition, and that combat patrol is the 500 points tier and it seems more supported that ever. But... is it? When I google combat patrol I see all the stuff from 5-6 months ago pointing out the existence thereof, but not much about how it has been received and if people are playing it. I don't seem to find a lot of battle reports at this level. What is your take on it? If I never played a bigger game (except maybe sparingly the incursion size) would I be missing out massively?

Should I try kill team instead for a similar time span? Is it alive and kicking even?

Necromunda looks great but I'm getting all the RPG I can handle in our D&D game so I'm not as interested as I might have been a few years ago.

Oh, what about Crusade? I know I said the involved campaign of necromunda was probably too much... but well-supported narrative 40k? How could that not be intriguing.

I guess there's age of sigmar, how does that stack up against 40k? I'll admit I never really looked into it...like at all.

Thanks for your kind consideration folks, I'm really excited to have a game shop in town but with my limited resources I'm trying to find the best angle at which to approach the hobby again.

Welcome back (potentially)!

Are you able to get a sense for what the community is playing at your new FLGS? If there is a Kill Team group then it might just be the best way to fit your requirements. Kill Team is good fun, but its been pretty much dormant in my community. We at least had a few games the summer if came out. Apocalypse was dead on arrival.

My group is really enjoying 40K 9th Edition. We have played some 500 point games, but 1500 has been fairly standard. Our next Tourney is at the 1000 level and I've had plenty of games at that level. You can certainly have a good 1000 point in under 2 hours. All that to say, if there is a 40K community around your FLGS then I am pretty sure your collection will contain a good 1000 point list that people would be happy to play against.

If, on the other hand, your intent is to get your D&D group to play in the Grim Dark Future and you are going to be the catalyst, then perhaps Kill Team is the way to go. Easy to enter the game.

Welcome!

I would throw another down for kill team.

Its great in that you only need like 5 infantry dudes to play normally and can build/ paint and play many different armies armies.

Full on 40k is a commitment.. A big expensive and time consuming commitment.

@SolarCross- I can make time to paint. There's plenty of minutes to steal throughout a week for that. Just gotta be fair to my wife and not be gone for hours and hours at a time playing space army mans

@Arbitrator- Kill team is sounding like the proper entry point, just need to see what they've got in store before I invest in the books (could be a new starter or whatever). I have not heard of Underworlds, I'll have to add it to the list to check out sometime.

@greatbigtree- the store owner is a fan of bloodbowl, but I and, personally, not a fan of sportsball. Even if it involves goblins and murder. Well... I mean maybe twist my arm and I could come up with a team IDK

@Seabass- I kind of forgot about the negativity that can float around, I mostly stuck to the P&M side of things back when. It's definitely a different culture to a lot of D&D communities for sure. Almost the opposite watching some of the 40k youtube channels to catch up on things, a lot of them are *rather* positive but obviously you have to keep your audience entertained and only some people have the special charisma to be awful and abrasive and draw fans for it. Fortunately for me, I'm pretty mellow and not liable to get sucked into a situation I don't like. If I get people playing 40k at the shop and end up hating the meta... I can happily tune myself back down to just painting. Crusade does sound fun, I would have liked that kind of support back in my heyday of 3-5th ed.

@Gulgog- Cheers! Kill team has definitely piqued my interest, for sure. I'm waiting to see what they deploy for it. Kinda hoping for a starter set, I don't have any of the new marines or necrons so nothing would go to waste. Codices for kill team would definitely make me sad, I like that the rules fit in just a handful of books.

@Saturmorn- The alternating activations of kill team definitely feel a lot more modern that 40k's IGOUGO, you could practically play 40k by post and that feels.. dated. I am also definitely interested in the boards, interesting after playing with some 2x2's. That's some sweet terrain and minis!

@Tango- Thanks I'm not sure there really is a community yet, I know some people in town probably play, but none of the game stores we've had have every catered to wargaming. I might be able to get in on the ground floor and nudge things in an advantageous direction, but it's hard to tell. If people start playing 40k proper, I can certainly bring 1000 to 2000 in a couple of flavors. Outdated, for sure, but I kept all my old stuff. Sorting it out is the next project The D&D group is so far removed from being warhammerable it isn't even a consideration. One of the players might play, but he'd never have to time or space to build his own army. We played frostgrave a couple of times etc.

@Argive, Thanks! Kill team definitely looks like my best prospect, though I'm gonna have a tough time waiting for their early 2021 release to see if it is a new book or starter. I've done the 40k thing, I know what i'd be getting into. We'll just have to see if there's enough enthusiasm left in me haha.

I’m not so sure Kill Team will be reappearing any time soon, and it is tough to find much of anything right now. It seems their schedule has been upset already for next year by the virus again. While it is not a full rulebook, the Recruit starter for new 40K is only $50, and you get twenty all new models to paint and play with. Not a major investment at all. If you have fun, the basic rules are still a free download, and the core rules can often be found for less than $40 by people parting out Indomitus on eBay.

 totalfailure wrote:
I’m not so sure Kill Team will be reappearing any time soon

They put out the teaser trailer only a few weeks ago that 'something' is coming down the pipeline and given it's been so long since Elite, it's presumably more than just a splat book addon.

Presumably we'll hear more at their New Years Open Day as we know GW typically don't like showing off things that're more than three months out at the latest, Covid aside..

 BertBert wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Crusade is a narrative campaign system that requires you to play a tournament-optimized list to participate.

Would you mind elaborating this part a bit further? I'm not particularly competitively minded and I was hoping Crusade could be a nice platform for casual campaigns.

If campaigning is your thing, Crusade will hit you in the sweet spot.

Kill Team IS an excellent little game; I really enjoy it, and all the folks steering you in that direction are dead on. But Crusade is a much better campaign system. The campaign infrastructure behind Kill Team is the weakest part of the game- I wanted so much more. Sure, you get to pick skills from trees as you level, and you can grow a roster over time.

But Crusade is above and beyond. It can be played on a scale almost as small as Kill Team- minimally you'll always need an HQ and a troop. At this level, Kill Team is a better game because at this level alternate activation is critical to keeping ultra-small forces on an equal footing.
But the cool thing is you aren't restricted to picking from troops options, and perhaps a handful of elite choices. If you want to bring vehicles or monsters as your force grows, you can. This makes it a better sandbox than Kill Team- you don't just get to try out every troop choice; you get to try out anything you want.

Crusade armies and tournament armies are very different. Crusade armies very much encourage the rule of cool; all of those little support characters that you tend to ignore or minimize in a tournament army can grow in a Crusade army- put 4 rounds of battle honours into the most boring unit in the game and watch it suddenly become interesting.

In matched play, the secondary objectives contribute to your victory points, so they can determine whether you win or lose. In Crusade, the secondaries (called "Agendas") tend to give experience points to the unit that achieves them rather than giving victory points to the army. It makes for an interesting story, right? Like your buddy says: "Who won?" and have to answer with something like "Well, it's a little more nuanced than that: after our vanguard units smashed his support convoy, his counter offensive took out our warlord, but without support, he couldn't break our line and our elites held the wall."

You might not mind losing the game if three of your units achieve key agendas and earn a battle honour. Winning is great, but Crusade is about growing. And you can choose to grow your force as fast or as slow as you want; if you are painting up a storm and you want to grow your army, raise that supply limit. But if you've hit a rough patch, keep your supply limit where it is and invest in warlord traits, relics and prebattle buff strats instead.

One of the cool things is that named characters really become less shiny; they have all of their abilities, right from game one, but they are frozen in time, and unable to grow or change. Your generic characters on the other hand, are going to level up four times over the course of their career and you either determine randomly or choose what happens when you do. A unit may begin a Crusade as a bland flavourless page out of the codex, but nobody finishes that way.

It is true that Crusade games are no faster than matched play games. You control time by controlling the size of your game; you can do this in matched or open play as easily as you can in Crusade; the book sets these at 500 points or 50 PL. In Crusade though, you strt with 25 PL and 5 requisition points- if you burn all 5 to increase your supply limit, that takes you to 50 PL. But you don't have to do that if you prefer a smaller game; you can buy a warlord trait for any character in your force, and most dexes have strategems which can upgrade a unit before battle, and you can buy those too- they become a permanent upgrade for the character.

It is also true that Crusade requires a degree of book keeping that matched play does not. But if campaign play is what you're looking for, you're obviously comfortable with some degree of book keeping. If that's the case, you'll find Crusade is a very robust campaign system that's growing with every codex. The flashpoint articles in White Dwarf add little extras, as do the formal mission packs. The bespoke Crusade content in the dexes though... There hasn't been this level of support for campaign play since the original Rogue Trader.

Yeah, crusade seems like there's the potential for awesome. I'll have to see what kinda players we have in town