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techsoldaten wrote: So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.
My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.
So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.
If you can't figure out the difference between the requirement to buy food and attending a 40k tournament I really can't help you.
techsoldaten wrote: I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.
How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?
I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.
Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?
And you don't understand the point I'm making here either. I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.
Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business.
No. You're claiming there's some profit to be made in all this, profit can be demonstrated. Explain the scenario where that happens, give us an estimate of what you think they're making by securing the top spot in an amateur wargaming league.
It's not hard. Start by figuring out how much this Team Brohammer makes for an individual session. The information probably be found online, many competitive players publish their rates:
If you can't find that info, you claim to have friends who do coaching. Ask them what they charge, ask how many sessions someone purchases from them on average. Extrapolate what that might be worth over the course of an ITC season, think about how much additional work they are bringing in because of the increased publicity.
Maybe compare their numbers with those of other ITC players to demonstrate the difference that top spot makes. Maybe offer a comparison with what a non-ITC player charges to prove how big a difference exists and how important good ITC performance is.
If you're claiming they're trying to make money off YouTube / Twitch videos, great, that's even easier. Tell me what channels they are and let's look at what they can expect to earn based on subscriber count and views. There's websites that give you those numbers immediately, they show you what channel growth looks like and can even report on things like average revenue from superchats.
This isn't some big research project, no one's asking you to be exact. Take 20 minutes and figure out what you think having that top spot is worth and maybe explain your logic. It's hard for me to see but I would love to be educated.
The reason it's important to put numbers around this is because of that other complaint you dropped, the ITC format. It's a measure of endurance and skill, you have to pay registration fees, travel / lodging expenses, meals, etc in pursuit of that top spot.
All that costs money and there's a lot of people who are very familiar with those kinds of expenses. There's a public record of every tournament the Team Brohammer guys attend and we know approximately where they live. We can compare your numbers with the cost of going to tournaments to get a decent estimate of what they're actually making.
My guess is the cost of pursuing the top spot in ITC exceeds anything anyone makes running a coaching service. I'm also guessing I can find many examples of people who don't participate in ITC but make more money off their streaming channel than these guys do.
But I'd love for you to show me how I'm wrong. Show us how these shady people are gaming ITC and making their shady profits. I want you to know I really appreciate you for shedding light on this important topic, the corrupt underbelly of the amateur wargaming circuit is really a significant issue that needs to be addressed and doing so is worth all the drama along the way. Your interest definitely does not say anything about you as a person other than the fact you're highly intelligent, fun to be around, and worth having as a friend.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/17 20:58:02
techsoldaten wrote:
So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.
My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.
So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.
If you can't figure out the difference between the requirement to buy food and attending a 40k tournament I really can't help you.
techsoldaten wrote:
I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.
How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?
I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.
Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?
And you don't understand the point I'm making here either. I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.
Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business.
No. You're claiming there's some profit to be made in all this, profit can be demonstrated. Explain the scenario where that happens, give us an estimate of what you think they're making by securing the top spot in an amateur wargaming league.
It's not hard. Start by figuring out how much this Team Brohammer makes for an individual session. The information probably be found online, many competitive players publish their rates:
If you can't find that info, you claim to have friends who do coaching. Ask them what they charge, ask how many sessions someone purchases from them on average. Extrapolate what that might be worth over the course of an ITC season, think about how much additional work they are bringing in because of the increased publicity.
Maybe compare their numbers with those of other ITC players to demonstrate the difference that top spot makes. Maybe offer a comparison with what a non-ITC player charges to prove how big a difference exists and how important good ITC performance is.
If you're claiming they're trying to make money off YouTube / Twitch videos, great, that's even easier. Tell me what channels they are and let's look at what they can expect to earn based on subscriber count and views. There's websites that give you those numbers immediately, they show you what channel growth looks like and can even report on things like average revenue from superchats.
This isn't some big research project, no one's asking you to be exact. Take 20 minutes and figure out what you think having that top spot is worth and maybe explain your logic. It's hard for me to see but I would to be educated.
The reason it's important to put numbers around this is because of that other complaint you dropped, the ITC format. It's a measure of endurance and skill, you have to pay registration fees, travel / lodging expenses, meals, etc in pursuit of that top spot.
All that costs money and there's a lot of people who are very familiar with those kinds of expenses. There's a public record of every tournament the Team Brohammer guys attend and we know approximately where they live. We can compare your numbers with the cost of going to tournaments to get a decent estimate of what they're actually making.
My guess is the cost of pursuing the top spot in ITC exceeds anything anyone makes running a coaching service. I'm also guessing I can find many examples of people who don't participate in ITC but make more money off their streaming channel than these guys do.
But I'd love for you to show me how I'm wrong. Show us how these shady people are gaming ITC and making their shady profits. I want you to know I really appreciate you for shedding light on this important, corrupt underbelly in the amateur gaming league circuit. It's an incredibly important topic and your interest definitely does not say anything about you as a person.
jesus... you are still here.. and still hanging on to that broken branch of hOw mUcH dO tHeY mAkE.
Its a very simple concept, if you are high in the rankings, you are a "better" player? Do you get that? I hope so, or this is going to be more difficult.
If you are a "better player" would you charge more or less for coachin? You probably charge more.
With me so far? I am just repeating what everyone else has told you multiple times.
So if they had gotten away with it and kept the points and become the team with the "#1 ITC" player do you think they would have more or fewer clients, than a team without the "#1 player"? Probably more
With regards to the money, the cost of where they live in FL is very cheap. I lived somewhere close and for what I paid for rent 6 months out west, before I bought my house, I can now rent 4 places like that in Florida. With regards to income, they have the warroom which charges $27. Multiply that by 3x the viewers they get on average are about 90-100 people (since probably not everyone watches live). They also have personal clients for $100 a month. Also other client services for $200+/month. And they also do list services and other services.
Given the low cost of living in FL, you can very easily make more than ends meet in a house where a few people do this in the same place.
If you still continue to rant about this, as other people have said, I really can't help you get these very simple concepts.
Also, great job completely leaving out both video clips after you were so eager to get them lmao
You are just making yourself look like a bigger fool by continually not being able to grasp very simple concepts.
This whole thing is a clown show, and you look like you are part of it my clown friend.
Cheers
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/17 21:15:08
gundam wrote: jesus... you are still here.. and still hanging on to that broken branch of hOw mUcH dO tHeY mAkE.
Its a very simple concept, if you are high in the rankings, you are a "better" player? Do you get that? I hope so, or this is going to be more difficult.
If you are a "better player" would you charge more or less for coachin? You probably charge more.
What you make has nothing to do with your hourly rate. People have to be willing to pay for services.
My experience is most wargamers are bargain hunters, the only thing they pay a premium for is GW product. Being the most expensive service works against you unless money doesn't matter.
I don't see evidence that placing high in an ITC eliminates that consideration. Nick Navavati ran a coaching service on his own before joining Nights at the Gaming Table. He was asking for $200+ per session, NotGT charges less. Here are their fees.
That's one example of how amateur wargaming circuit performance does not translate into pricing power, his rates went down 60% - 75%. The reason that happens is because the market cannot bear the higher cost.
I have other examples. Show me an example of where performance does translate into pricing power and stop telling me to take your word for it.
gundam wrote: So if they had gotten away with it and kept the points and become the team with the "#1 ITC" player do you think they would have more or less clients, than a team without the "#1 player"? Probably more
No, that's not self-evident for reasons I've already cited.
If your friend comes back with actual numbers, I'll be happy to consider them.
gundam wrote: With regards to the money, the cost of where they live in FL is very cheap. I lived somewhere close and for what I paid for rent 6 months out west, before I bought my house, now I can rent 4 places like that in Florida. They have the warroom which charges $27 multiply that by 3x the viewers they get on average are about 90-100 people. They also have personal clients for $100 a month. Also other clients for $200/month. Given the low cost of life in FL, you can very easily make more than ends meet in a house where a few people do this in the same place.
So you're saying they want to live just above the poverty level in a terrible part of the state to pursue the top spot in an amateur wargaming circuit.
You make a lot of sense.
gundam wrote: If you still continue to rant about this, as other people have said, I really can't help you get these very simple concepts.
I've never asked for your help. My rule is to avoid cheats, liars, drunks and junkies. Stop imposing it on me.
gundam wrote: Also, great job completely leaving out both video clips after you were so eager to get them lmao
Pardon me for noticing, but the video doesn't seem to prove your point. Someone calling themselves a ringer in a 15 second clip doesn't mean anything.
gundam wrote: You are just making yourself look like a bigger fool by continually not being able to grasp very simple concepts.
You're the one who can't do math and wants everyone to accept faulty conclusions about business.
gundam wrote: jesus... you are still here.. and still hanging on to that broken branch of hOw mUcH dO tHeY mAkE.
Its a very simple concept, if you are high in the rankings, you are a "better" player? Do you get that? I hope so, or this is going to be more difficult.
If you are a "better player" would you charge more or less for coachin? You probably charge more.
What you make has nothing to do with your hourly rate. People have to be willing to pay for services.
My experience is most wargamers are bargain hunters, the only thing they pay a premium for is GW product. Being the most expensive service works against you unless money doesn't matter.
I don't see evidence that placing high in an ITC eliminates that consideration. Nick Navavati ran a coaching service on his own before joining Nights at the Gaming Table. He was asking for $200+ per session, NotGT charges less. Here are their fees.
That's one example of how amateur wargaming circuit performance does not translate into pricing power, his rates went down 60% - 75%. The reason that happens is because the market cannot bear the higher cost.
I have other examples. Show me an example of where performance does translate into pricing power and stop telling me to take your word for it.
With me so far. I am just repeating what everyone else has told you multiple times.
You are very talented at repeating what others say without considering the point. Bravo!
gundam wrote: So if they had gotten away with it and kept the points and become the team with the "#1 ITC" player do you think they would have more or less clients, than a team without the "#1 player"? Probably more
No, that's not self-evident for reasons I've already cited.
If your friend comes back with actual numbers, I'll be happy to consider them.
gundam wrote: With regards to the money, the cost of where they live in FL is very cheap. I lived somewhere close and for what I paid for rent 6 months out west, before I bought my house, now I can rent 4 places like that in Florida. They have the warroom which charges $27 multiply that by 3x the viewers they get on average are about 90-100 people. They also have personal clients for $100 a month. Also other clients for $200/month. Given the low cost of life in FL, you can very easily make more than ends meet in a house where a few people do this in the same place.
So you're saying they want to live just above the poverty level in a terrible part of the state to pursue the top spot in an amateur wargaming circuit.
You make a lot of sense.
gundam wrote: If you still continue to rant about this, as other people have said, I really can't help you get these very simple concepts.
I've never asked for your help. My rule is to avoid cheats, liars, drunks and junkies. Stop imposing it on me.
gundam wrote: Also, great job completely leaving out both video clips after you were so eager to get them lmao
Pardon me for noticing, but the video doesn't seem to prove your point. Someone calling themselves a ringer in a 15 second clip doesn't mean anything.
gundam wrote: You are just making yourself look like a bigger fool by continually not being able to grasp very simple concepts.
You're the one who can't do math and wants everyone to accept faulty conclusions about business.
This whole thing is a clown show, and you look like you are part of it my clown friend.
Cheers
Honk honk.
1. there were two videos, in both videos he said he was dropping out before facing john. Like I said, you conveniently leave out the most incriminating part of the videos.
2. I didnt say poverty level, don't try to be factitious. All that said is that you can live a pretty comfortable life in florida doing this. I am sure they make more than people working an autozone and another similar type of jobs. Asking for exact figures is irrelevant since you can clearly estimate that they make more than enough to maintain a stress-free lifestyle.
3. Please find something else that brings you joy and try to be less triggered. If continually trolling is your passion, you are probably going to be happier in Reddit.
Again, feel free to ignore the videos or if you do actually mention them, it will be interesting trying to see you do logic gymnastics with them.
It is obvious you are trying really hard to not call a spade for what it is.
From your profile, it wasnt hard to figure out you were the only one defending their clown show and the comments you posted on facebook.
1. there were two videos, in both videos he said he was dropping out before facing john. Like I said, you conveniently leave out the most incriminating part of the videos.
Who cares?
I saw one video, post both the links. The short one just made me think you're really trying hard to find something that's not there.
gundam wrote: 2. I didnt say poverty level, don't try to be factitious. All that said is that you can live a pretty comfortable life in florida doing this. I am sure they make more than people working an autozone and another similar type of jobs. Asking for exact figures is irrelevant since you can clearly estimate that they make more than enough to maintain a stress-free lifestyle.
No, you said they live in the cheapest part of Florida. Now you're trying to frame it as a comfortable lifestyle.
Most people who've spent any time in Florida know what the cheapest parts are like. It's not far above the poverty line.
Stop trying to massage the truth.
gundam wrote: 3. Please find something else that brings you joy and try to be less triggered. If continually trolling is your passion, you are probably going to be happier in Reddit.
Asking for facts instead of accepting accusations because you told me to isn't trolling.
Last response here since it appears we've reached the truly stupid part of the discussion (and the asinine comment about Covid has me very close to breaking rule #1).
There is literally one single point that myself and others are making about the coaching aspect: it's conceivable that your ITC ranking can have a direct effect on your number of customers, what you can charge for coaching, or both. That's it.
The only relevant point here is there is a perception that ITC ranking can have a direct effect on the coaching business. Everyone else seems to accept at least the possibility that a higher ranked player can charge more for their services. As I pointed out in a previous post, all things being equal, I suspect most people who are interested in coaching would prefer to give their money to a higher ranked player than a lower ranked one. If you think that's not true that's fine, but you seem to be the only one disputing that. If we accept that possibility it's not a huge leap of logic to see why people involved in coaching might want to boost their ITC ranking.
Any other costs individuals may incur as a result of their hobby or living conditions are so far out of the scope of this discussion I really don't get why you keep bringing them up.
Slipspace wrote: Last response here since it appears we've reached the truly stupid part of the discussion (and the asinine comment about Covid has me very close to breaking rule #1).
There is literally one single point that myself and others are making about the coaching aspect: it's conceivable that your ITC ranking can have a direct effect on your number of customers, what you can charge for coaching, or both. That's it.
The only relevant point here is there is a perception that ITC ranking can have a direct effect on the coaching business. Everyone else seems to accept at least the possibility that a higher ranked player can charge more for their services. As I pointed out in a previous post, all things being equal, I suspect most people who are interested in coaching would prefer to give their money to a higher ranked player than a lower-ranked one. If you think that's not true that's fine, but you seem to be the only one disputing that. If we accept that possibility it's not a huge leap of logic to see why people involved in coaching might want to boost their ITC ranking.
Any other costs individuals may incur as a result of their hobby or living conditions are so far out of the scope of this discussion I really don't get why you keep bringing them up.
exactly, he is bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with anything on this thread.
In both videos, Siegler literally says he was dropping out before facing John. Yet somehow he cant hear that.
I think his point of trolling was to purposely derail the thread with nonsense. He probably spent too much money on his ITC ranking, memberships, and/or coaching and is now trying really hard to validate the clown show that is compeitive.
No one here wants competitive to fail, but it won't go anywhere as it is. Because like many people have said, competitive as of now is more than endurance competition than a skill competition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: Last response here since it appears we've reached the truly stupid part of the discussion (and the asinine comment about Covid has me very close to breaking rule #1).
What else would you expect from a Parler guy? Covid nonsense and Facebook posts about the CCP and how the "media" won't talk about China.
He should have prefaced all of his comments with. "Coming from a Parler member,..."
I think we can still talk and just let him do his thing lol
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/17 22:47:16
Slipspace wrote: Last response here since it appears we've reached the truly stupid part of the discussion (and the asinine comment about Covid has me very close to breaking rule #1).
There is literally one single point that myself and others are making about the coaching aspect: it's conceivable that your ITC ranking can have a direct effect on your number of customers, what you can charge for coaching, or both. That's it.
The only relevant point here is there is a perception that ITC ranking can have a direct effect on the coaching business. Everyone else seems to accept at least the possibility that a higher ranked player can charge more for their services. As I pointed out in a previous post, all things being equal, I suspect most people who are interested in coaching would prefer to give their money to a higher ranked player than a lower ranked one. If you think that's not true that's fine, but you seem to be the only one disputing that. If we accept that possibility it's not a huge leap of logic to see why people involved in coaching might want to boost their ITC ranking.
Any other costs individuals may incur as a result of their hobby or living conditions are so far out of the scope of this discussion I really don't get why you keep bringing them up.
And I've cited examples in this thread where top ranked ITC players have to decrease their rates because that's what the market can bear.
That directly contradicts your point, only I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it.
Funny how you people screeching about how everything's so shady can't listen to facts and adjust your story to fit reality. All you know how to do is whine.
The only reason I started following the competitive scene is because of a similar thread a few years ago. After three years of listening to this garbage, it's clear you're all just a bunch of phonies.
IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.
Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh
Wow. Great job misrepresenting what they said. To paraphrase them:
1. Siegler was one of two possible ringer. The second was the store owner who had more important things to do.
2. Siegler didn't intent to play three games in the first place, but there keep being an odd number of players.
3. Siegler definitely didn't want to keep playing and find the ringer playing Nanavati in Round 5 for 1st place.
This isn't proof of some evil collusion. Just a couple of guys stating what happened.
I think that's the reason why sports usually have indipendent (or pseudo-indipendent) commissions that determine the calendar and similar stuff...
For example, having a limited number of events would raise the bar for competitiveness. At the same time, it will limits the amount of business they can generate.
We can think about averages or other scoring systems that remove the number of games as variables (or limit it drastically: averages for example)...
But in the end I think really there isn't a feasible solution different from a drastic separation of the management of the competition from the business side.
I understand the competitive bandwagon that is the current driver for 40k: I also think it's a bubble more than a sounded strategy.
Probably and international circuit of recognized game to play Crusade will be more suited to the hobby (like the Adventurer League for D&D). Aiming to e-sport instead is the most easy and basic solution... But it really don't fit with 40k.
Just check the tournament attendance: half the people are there only to play a few games in a day without caring much for the competition?
It's an incredibly high number, the only sport with similar "fluffy" competition is probably cycling...and in this case the challenge is often with yourself.
So, this is a particularly bad situation from a marketing point of view. But issues with ITC are deeper and quite different.
But those are you soldier and, in the end, who cares?
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.
Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh
Wow. Great job misrepresenting what they said. To paraphrase them:
1. Siegler was one of two possible ringer. The second was the store owner who had more important things to do.
2. Siegler didn't intent to play three games in the first place, but there keep being an odd number of players.
3. Siegler definitely didn't want to keep playing and find the ringer playing Nanavati in Round 5 for 1st place.
This isn't proof of some evil collusion. Just a couple of guys stating what happened.
it is not evil collusion, just a looney tunes type scheme for ITC points lol
plus you are paraphrasing them wrong, it was John the player they are trying to boost (as was in the video) and it wasnt Nanavati.
Paraphrase does not mean what you think it means. You cant just change the content of your video in your summary. Why take a super strong list as a ringer, take out the stronger competition and then say on video multiple times you were dropping out before playing John, since that was the player closest to number 1.
Anyways, we appreciate the memes. This thread had everything from Home Alone type schemes, Legend of Bagger Vance Golf Stories, Mr Parler himself techsoldaten taking this thread on a wild ride of irrelevant threads.
Update: I just got a DM that Netflix just greenlit this thread
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/17 23:43:54
AduroT wrote: Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.
The very idea of "teams" in an individually-ranked environment is a recipe for collusion.
By "teams" we're literally talking about "a group of friends that carpooled to the event". You can give it a label but this is not exactly a hobby that works without connecting with opponents.
IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.
Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh
Wow. Great job misrepresenting what they said. To paraphrase them:
1. Siegler was one of two possible ringer. The second was the store owner who had more important things to do.
2. Siegler didn't intent to play three games in the first place, but there keep being an odd number of players.
3. Siegler definitely didn't want to keep playing and find the ringer playing Nanavati in Round 5 for 1st place.
This isn't proof of some evil collusion. Just a couple of guys stating what happened.
it is not evil collusion, just a looney tunes type scheme for ITC points lol
plus you are paraphrasing them wrong, it was John the player they are trying to boost (as was in the video) and it wasnt Nanavati.
Paraphrase does not mean what you think it means. You cant just change the content of your video in your summary. Why take a super strong list as a ringer, take out the stronger competition and then say on video multiple times you were dropping out before playing John, since that was the player closest to number 1.
Anyways, we appreciate the memes. This thread had everything from Home Alone type schemes, Legend of Bagger Vance Golf Stories, Mr Parler himself techsoldaten taking this thread on a wild ride of irrelevant threads.
Update: I just got a DM that Netflix just greenlit this thread
Oh no! I got the name wrong, but other wise my point is correct. He never intended to play the entire tournament, he was the ringer. Playing three games was more than he expected to play and he definatly didn't want to pay John (who he must have been assuming would be in the place to win) in the finals if he keep playing as the ringer and winning. It's not like that's the ringer's job after all. Although I do have to wonder how the ringer could end up in that position anyway?
IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.
Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh
Wow. Great job misrepresenting what they said. To paraphrase them:
1. Siegler was one of two possible ringer. The second was the store owner who had more important things to do.
2. Siegler didn't intent to play three games in the first place, but there keep being an odd number of players.
3. Siegler definitely didn't want to keep playing and find the ringer playing Nanavati in Round 5 for 1st place.
This isn't proof of some evil collusion. Just a couple of guys stating what happened.
it is not evil collusion, just a looney tunes type scheme for ITC points lol
plus you are paraphrasing them wrong, it was John the player they are trying to boost (as was in the video) and it wasnt Nanavati.
Paraphrase does not mean what you think it means. You cant just change the content of your video in your summary. Why take a super strong list as a ringer, take out the stronger competition and then say on video multiple times you were dropping out before playing John, since that was the player closest to number 1.
Anyways, we appreciate the memes. This thread had everything from Home Alone type schemes, Legend of Bagger Vance Golf Stories, Mr Parler himself techsoldaten taking this thread on a wild ride of irrelevant threads.
Update: I just got a DM that Netflix just greenlit this thread
Oh no! I got the name wrong, but other wise my point is correct. He never intended to play the entire tournament, he was the ringer. Playing three games was more than he expected to play and he definatly didn't want to pay John (who he must have been assuming would be in the place to win) in the finals if he keep playing as the ringer and winning. It's not like that's the ringer's job after all. Although I do have to wonder how the ringer could end up in that position anyway?
by unintentionally taking the strongest list possible to knock out every strong player against John?
I like the AoW40k crowd. They make cool streams and they seem like cool guys. I honestly don't think they really realized how problematic what they were doing is. The only part of what techsoldaten said that is valid is that top players probably are so focused on winning that they often lose sight of whether the way they're doing it is problematic. I suspect to them it was a small step from "farm ITC points by going to lots of events," something that has been tacitly accepted by the ITC, to "create our own events and tailor them to farm ITC points for our guy," something that was a bridge too far.
That said, it's super obvious in this case that they set up and tailored an event specifically to farm as many points for Lennon as they could. And the ITC rightly said "that's not cool, and it violates the spirit of our rules."
Hopefully this will prompt the ITC to either abandon the whole points thing as hopelessly flawed, or to really tighten up on how points can be farmed.
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
yukishiro1 wrote: I like the AoW40k crowd. They make cool streams and they seem like cool guys. I honestly don't think they really realized how problematic what they were doing is. The only part of what techsoldaten said that is valid is that top players probably are so focused on winning that they often lose sight of whether the way they're doing it is problematic. I suspect to them it was a small step from "farm ITC points by going to lots of events," something that has been tacitly accepted by the ITC, to "create our own events and tailor them to farm ITC points for our guy," something that was a bridge too far.
That said, it's super obvious in this case that they set up and tailored an event specifically to farm as many points for Lennon as they could. And the ITC rightly said "that's not cool, and it violates the spirit of our rules."
Hopefully this will prompt the ITC to either abandon the whole points thing as hopelessly flawed, or to really tighten up on how points can be farmed.
This seems most likely. I don't think they were sitting there with a profit/loss spreadsheet cackling maniacally while they hatched their plot to top the ITC rankings. Someone made an interesting point earlier in the thread that one of the skills of 40k is finding and exploiting loopholes and edge cases and this seems like a bit of an extension of that. Doesn't make what they did any less problematic but it does highlight an area of concern the ITC might want to look at.
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
Lying to exploit others for personal gain?
As a young adult, I talked about myself as though I was a professional wrestler. I also taught people how to swing, caddied and played as a fourth when someone in a party had to drop out. On occasion, I would play in a tournament, and sometimes I'd even gamble on the game. If you wanted to be a better player, you could do worse than hanging out with me for an afternoon.
Help me understand how anyone was being deceived or exploited.
I played without a handicap, hard to be more transparent than that. Telling men to hide their wives or risk losing them is not something that's going to confuse anyone, just make them laugh. Their wives thought it was funny too, I'd tell them to have some drinks ready when I come around with the truck to help them move their stuff.
The whole point of that story was there is nothing wrong with having a talent and making money off it. That's pretty much how everything in the world works.
The tough part is the feelings of jealousy and resentment talent fosters in others. I ran into that sometimes too. Got kicked out of the pro shop a couple times because somebody had some sore feelings.
Almost makes you think there's this kind of person who just wants everyone else to lose because they never win. That kind of person makes up all sorts of stories - in my case, accusations about being too good looking - to limit you in some way, make your talents less relevant because they don't have them. Rumors and innuendo are a dirty thing.
Wonder what the name is for that kind of person.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/18 11:07:56
That said, it's super obvious in this case that they set up and tailored an event specifically to farm as many points for Lennon as they could. And the ITC rightly said "that's not cool, and it violates the spirit of our rules."
.
I think that was obvious for everyone with common sense. I hope the guys just revaluate doing something like that in the future. And lastly, I hope the ITC revises their points system so it is less of a points farming/endurance competition and more skill-based on averages
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
yikes....
techsoldaten is the parler-covid-is-nothing-ccp-china dakka member who just keeps on giving
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/18 15:22:34
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Irkjoe wrote: "Competitve" players fighting over points so they can scam the small pool of idiots willing to pay for their fake classes, hilarious.
You forgot the Pandemic somewhere in there, turning this into an "great endeavour"...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
Lying to exploit others for personal gain?
As a young adult, I talked about myself as though I was a professional wrestler. I also taught people how to swing, caddied and played as a fourth when someone in a party had to drop out. On occasion, I would play in a tournament, and sometimes I'd even gamble on the game. If you wanted to be a better player, you could do worse than hanging out with me for an afternoon.
Help me understand how anyone was being deceived or exploited.
I played without a handicap, hard to be more transparent than that. Telling men to hide their wives or risk losing them is not something that's going to confuse anyone, just make them laugh. Their wives thought it was funny too, I'd tell them to have some drinks ready when I come around with the truck to help them move their stuff.
The whole point of that story was there is nothing wrong with having a talent and making money off it. That's pretty much how everything in the world works.
The tough part is the feelings of jealousy and resentment talent fosters in others. I ran into that sometimes too. Got kicked out of the pro shop a couple times because somebody had some sore feelings.
Almost makes you think there's this kind of person who just wants everyone else to lose because they never win. That kind of person makes up all sorts of stories - in my case, accusations about being too good looking - to limit you in some way, make your talents less relevant because they don't have them. Rumors and innuendo are a dirty thing.
Wonder what the name is for that kind of person.
My comment wasn't directed at you, it was to the thread in general. To put it as politely as I can; there is no way you will understand my perspective. We're too far apart
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
Posts like that one make me wish there was a dakkadakka hall of fame. Shine on, nature boy! Woo!
The Legend of Bagger Vance thing had me cracking up, what a tool.
What people also need to realize is that it's not just FLG/ITC involvement with the tournament scene, it's GW. Their recent Metawatch posts with tongue-in-cheek "ratings" of these "top players" is now in full view of a very large community. Not sure how they will feel about points-padding tournaments, but ITC will need to keep that in mind when deciding how to police events moving forward.
bullyboy wrote: The Legend of Bagger Vance thing had me cracking up, what a tool.
What people also need to realize is that it's not just FLG/ITC involvement with the tournament scene, it's GW. Their recent Metawatch posts with tongue-in-cheek "ratings" of these "top players" is now in full view of a very large community. Not sure how they will feel about points-padding tournaments, but ITC will need to keep that in mind when deciding how to police events moving forward.
yeah that parler golfer guy is something else... a living sad dank meme lol
probably the reason why the ITC did nothing with regards to the very obvious points farming/padding. GW is getting its competitive toes wet now so no reason to punish the metawatch bros in this home alone itc points ponzi scheme lol
