Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Not saying you're wrong, but why? All of the snowflake marines share the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword, so why shouldn't Death Guard share the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword with the other Legions? Sure, it would open up some opportunities for cross Legion synergies, but at the cost of monofaction bonuses like Contagions and whatever the other Legions get and CP.. Death Guard are still a Legion, after all.

Well for one thing, it looks like Plague Marines are now "Bubonic Astartes" or whatever they called it instead of Heretic Astartes. They have said they want to decrease the amount of "soup armies" so setting the keywords such that they don't carry over anymore would be a big step in that direction. No more CSM detachment to throw warptime on Morty from a sorceror etc. And since the PMs look like they will have the "Bubonic Astartes" keyword, it makes no sense for Morty to be "Heretic Astartes" unless they want him to not synergize with his own people. Which, let's be honest here, would not surprise any of us either.

Far as taking PMs in the main CSM book - my guess is one of two options:

1. You no longer can. They will keep the main CSM book for Legions and disparate renegade war bands, but if you want a snowflake chapter, you will have to wait for a new codex, or codex supplement.

2. There will be a seperate special rule like "Plague Marines taken from codex CSM maintain the Heretic Astartes" keyword while those taken from Codexeath Guard trade it for Bubonic Astartes"

Tycho wrote:

Not saying you're wrong, but why? All of the snowflake marines share the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword, so why shouldn't Death Guard share the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword with the other Legions? Sure, it would open up some opportunities for cross Legion synergies, but at the cost of monofaction bonuses like Contagions and whatever the other Legions get and CP.. Death Guard are still a Legion, after all.

Well for one thing, it looks like Plague Marines are now "Bubonic Astartes" or whatever they called it instead of Heretic Astartes. They have said they want to decrease the amount of "soup armies" so setting the keywords such that they don't carry over anymore would be a big step in that direction. No more CSM detachment to throw warptime on Morty from a sorceror etc. And since the PMs look like they will have the "Bubonic Astartes" keyword, it makes no sense for Morty to be "Heretic Astartes" unless they want him to not synergize with his own people. Which, let's be honest here, would not surprise any of us either.

Far as taking PMs in the main CSM book - my guess is one of two options:

1. You no longer can. They will keep the main CSM book for Legions and disparate renegade war bands, but if you want a snowflake chapter, you will have to wait for a new codex, or codex supplement.

2. There will be a seperate special rule like "Plague Marines taken from codex CSM maintain the Heretic Astartes" keyword while those taken from CodexG trade it for Bubonic Astartes"

Again, you may be right, but both Mortarian and the Greater Blight Drone in its Death Guard entry in the Compendium have retained the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. I know it's gw, but could they have screwed up twice, in two different datasheets, in two different publications?

I don't see what's so strange about it.

Astartes have both the Astartes keyword and the specific chapter keyword.

Heretic Astartes synergies are expected to work between special snowflakes, it is just going to cost you the contagions.

Again, you may be right, but both Mortarian and the Greater Blight Drone in its Death Guard entry in the Compendium have retained the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. I know it's gw, but could they have screwed up twice, in two different datasheets, in two different publications?

How many times have we seen the same copy/paste error go through multiple books? In short, yes. Yes, I believe they could have done exactly that.

What are the other options? Mortarion doesn't share one of the most important keywords with his own army, OR, some units will have both "Heretic Astartes" and "Bubonic Astartes"? I honestly think, given what we've seen from GW in the past that the possibility that they made the same mistake in two different books is actually the most likely result. We already know the rules writers tend not to talk to each other enough, and we know (or at least strongly suspect) that codexes and supplements tend to be worked on in semi-siloed environments, so I think it would be pretty easy for them to have made that mistake.

Astartes have both the Astartes keyword and the specific chapter keyword.

But the chapter specific keyword in this case is "Death Guard" ...

Tycho wrote:

Again, you may be right, but both Mortarian and the Greater Blight Drone in its Death Guard entry in the Compendium have retained the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. I know it's gw, but could they have screwed up twice, in two different datasheets, in two different publications?

How many times have we seen the same copy/paste error go through multiple books? In short, yes. Yes, I believe they could have done exactly that.

What are the other options? Mortarion doesn't share one of the most important keywords with his own army, OR, some units will have both "Heretic Astartes" and "Bubonic Astartes"? I honestly think, given what we've seen from GW in the past that the possibility that they made the same mistake in two different books is actually the most likely result. We already know the rules writers tend not to talk to each other enough, and we know (or at least strongly suspect) that codexes and supplements tend to be worked on in semi-siloed environments, so I think it would be pretty easy for them to have made that mistake.

Astartes have both the Astartes keyword and the specific chapter keyword.

But the chapter specific keyword in this case is "Death Guard" ...

Mortarian has the BUBONIC ASTARTES, HERETIC ASTARTES, and DEATH GUARD keywords. What keyword are you saying he doesn't share with other Death Guard units?

It's entirely possible that:
1) Mortarian is special because he is a Primarch, and Morty and Magnus will keep HERETIC ASTARTES while the rest of the units will lose them.

2) The rule in the IA compendium was made with the current codexes in mind, thus only adds the keyword, and will be changed to replace later.

3) The IA compendium is a typical GW error and is meant to replace them anyway.

4) The HERETIC ASTARTES keyword on Mortarion is a mistake.

Spoletta wrote:
I don't see what's so strange about it.

Astartes have both the Astartes keyword and the specific chapter keyword.

Heretic Astartes synergies are expected to work between special snowflakes, it is just going to cost you the contagions.

<Adeptus Astartes> + <Ultramarines>

vs

<Heretic Astartes> + <Bubonic Astartes> + <Deathguard>

So, anyone willing to take a guess which keywords poxwalkers and cultists will have? :p

So, anyone willing to take a guess which keywords poxwalkers and cultists will have? :p

Probably none of those? We already have better cultists than other CSM armies simply by virtue of the fact that GW over-looked DG when they were "fixing" the cultist entries. I would expect them to correct that oversight here. My guess is Poxwalkers will have a few associated strats to make up for the fact that they can't benefit from DR anymore.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, anyone willing to take a guess which keywords poxwalkers and cultists will have? :p

watch GW give them the <unaligned> keyword lol.

watch GW give them the <unaligned> keyword lol.

How amazing would it be if they got Heretic Astartes but NOT Death Guard

This will be the first time they've tried to actually improve the Chaos Marines instead of their previous approach of gaking on Cultists repeatedly.

I'm still expecting more nerfs to Cultists. Is there any other unit treated this way? (Completely cut off from the power for paint subfaction rules, specifically excepted from strats, points costs raised above equivalent choices despite those comparables getting full access to subfaction benefits)

I'm still expecting more nerfs to Cultists. Is there any other unit treated this way? (Completely cut off from the power for paint subfaction rules, specifically excepted from strats, points costs raised above equivalent choices despite those comparables getting full access to subfaction benefits)

We have no Tau players in our meta anymore so I could be wrong here, but do Kroot get all the same benefits as standard Tau? That might be an example.

It also would be really easy to just leave out Bubonic Astartes for them

 Eldarain wrote:
This will be the first time they've tried to actually improve the Chaos Marines instead of their previous approach of gaking on Cultists repeatedly.

I'm still expecting more nerfs to Cultists. Is there any other unit treated this way? (Completely cut off from the power for paint subfaction rules, specifically excepted from strats, points costs raised above equivalent choices despite those comparables getting full access to subfaction benefits)

IG Conscripts received a similar treatment, although I don't think they're specifically exempted from many (if any) stratagems.

What am I missing?

Why does every single new datasheet we have seen for Death Guard having HERETIC ASTARTES made everyone think that all the units are losing it?

They can have both BUBOTIC and HERETIC ASTARTES.
It could just be an easy way of making sure DG specific strats only affect DG units and not units from CSM book, but still allow generic shared strats to be used in both codex

Doohicky wrote:
What am I missing?

Why does every single new datasheet we have seen for Death Guard having HERETIC ASTARTES made everyone think that all the units are losing it?

They can have both BUBOTIC and HERETIC ASTARTES.
It could just be an easy way of making sure DG specific strats only affect DG units and not units from CSM book, but still allow generic shared strats to be used in both codex

Maybe there shouldn't be any generic shared strats, likewise the book shouldn't magically work better by having access to warptime etc from outside.

Dudeface wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
What am I missing?

Why does every single new datasheet we have seen for Death Guard having HERETIC ASTARTES made everyone think that all the units are losing it?

They can have both BUBOTIC and HERETIC ASTARTES.
It could just be an easy way of making sure DG specific strats only affect DG units and not units from CSM book, but still allow generic shared strats to be used in both codex

Maybe there shouldn't be any generic shared strats, likewise the book shouldn't magically work better by having access to warptime etc from outside.

That's not an answer to my question. All evidence points to both keywords existing. Why are so many people convinced it is wrong? Beyond just random hope

Doohicky wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
What am I missing?

Why does every single new datasheet we have seen for Death Guard having HERETIC ASTARTES made everyone think that all the units are losing it?

They can have both BUBOTIC and HERETIC ASTARTES.
It could just be an easy way of making sure DG specific strats only affect DG units and not units from CSM book, but still allow generic shared strats to be used in both codex

Maybe there shouldn't be any generic shared strats, likewise the book shouldn't magically work better by having access to warptime etc from outside.

That's not an answer to my question. All evidence points to both keywords existing. Why are so many people convinced it is wrong? Beyond just random hope

I think its mostly about "why bother creating a new keyword if theyre not going to actually be separated from regular csm"

Doohicky wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
What am I missing?

Why does every single new datasheet we have seen for Death Guard having HERETIC ASTARTES made everyone think that all the units are losing it?

They can have both BUBOTIC and HERETIC ASTARTES.
It could just be an easy way of making sure DG specific strats only affect DG units and not units from CSM book, but still allow generic shared strats to be used in both codex

Maybe there shouldn't be any generic shared strats, likewise the book shouldn't magically work better by having access to warptime etc from outside.

That's not an answer to my question. All evidence points to both keywords existing. Why are so many people convinced it is wrong? Beyond just random hope

Have we seen more than 1 complete datasheet yet? Given mortarion is a stop gap pdf it might not even be the same as the printed version.

But it's assumed they won't have it because why bother creating a new keyword otherwise, have things key off the legion rather than heretic/bubotic astartes etc.

I know it wasn't a direct answer but it was an answer: because it's expected a wedge will be put in between chaos space marines and death guard to reduce overlap.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
This will be the first time they've tried to actually improve the Chaos Marines instead of their previous approach of gaking on Cultists repeatedly.

I'm still expecting more nerfs to Cultists. Is there any other unit treated this way? (Completely cut off from the power for paint subfaction rules, specifically excepted from strats, points costs raised above equivalent choices despite those comparables getting full access to subfaction benefits)

IG Conscripts received a similar treatment, although I don't think they're specifically exempted from many (if any) stratagems.

I think gretchin have it even worse, although I'm not sure if they get some minor rules support now.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Doohicky wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
What am I missing?

Why does every single new datasheet we have seen for Death Guard having HERETIC ASTARTES made everyone think that all the units are losing it?

They can have both BUBOTIC and HERETIC ASTARTES.
It could just be an easy way of making sure DG specific strats only affect DG units and not units from CSM book, but still allow generic shared strats to be used in both codex

Maybe there shouldn't be any generic shared strats, likewise the book shouldn't magically work better by having access to warptime etc from outside.

That's not an answer to my question. All evidence points to both keywords existing. Why are so many people convinced it is wrong? Beyond just random hope

I think its mostly about "why bother creating a new keyword if theyre not going to actually be separated from regular csm"

My assumption would probably be so they could create strategems that target "bubonic astartes" rather than deathguard as a whole and rather than heretic astartes, for a more specific targeting of strategems without losing access the other strategems

Good point. If non-Death Guard are Bubonic Astartes and some Death Guard stratagems target Bubonic Astartes, you have a little tightly controlled cross over.

Also, the Greater Blight Drone is not Bubonic Astartes in the Forge World Compendium. So Bubonic Astartes may be a keyword they are using to separate Death Guard marines from their equipment and followers. They could then make stratagems and other rules that affect Bubonic Astartes without worrying about them working on Daemon Engines, Cultist, Vehicles, or Pox Walkers.