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... and can be found HERE.

The most interesting thing I see here:

Page 47 – Land Raider Banisher, Faction Keywords
Change ‘ADEPTUS ASTARTES’ to ‘SANTIC ASTARTES’

Unlike the Death Guard and Thousand Sons models, who gain BUBONIC ASTARTES or ARCANA ASTARTES, the Grey Knights are probably going to lose ADEPTUS ASTARTES in favour of SANTIC ASTARTES.

Do you think that the Death Guard codex will replace HERETIC ASTARTES with BUBONIC ASTARTES (with Mortarian keeping HERETIC ASTARTES because he is a Primarch), and this FAQ will be edited, or will they have both keywords while Grey Knights no longer can be splashed into SM Armies, even though doing so would be a bad idea anyway?

I assume they keep it just because thats too many times it has been seen along side heretic astartes now for it to be a mistake.

If it had ONLY been on Morty's datasheet or ONLY in the FAQ it could be mistake. Separately having it with time in between to notice I'm not having as a mistake.

Are we going to see ANGELUS ASTARTES for BA ? Or LUPUS ASTARTES for SW ? Or MORTIS ASTARTES for DW ?

 p5freak wrote:
Are we going to see ANGELUS ASTARTES for BA ? Or LUPUS ASTARTES for SW ? Or MORTIS ASTARTES for DW ?

Why stop there? Mechanicum Astartes for Iron Hands, Infernum Astartes for Salamanders, etc.

I prefer IRONIC ASTARTES for IH

I think all SM factions which are in the SM codex will keep ADEPTUS ASTARTES, all other which have their own codexes will also get their own keywords.

 doctortom wrote:
Why stop there? Mechanicum Astartes for Iron Hands, Infernum Astartes for Salamanders, etc.

 p5freak wrote:
Are we going to see ANGELUS ASTARTES for BA ? Or LUPUS ASTARTES for SW ? Or MORTIS ASTARTES for DW ?

No, because those books are supplements to a main Codex. Death Guard/Thousand Sons and Grey Knights are their own thing.

Not to mention there is definitely things more different than even your average marine differences when you talk about Death Guard/Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and the Grey Knights.

As noted in the DW tactics thread, I'm surprised they didn't FAQ it that taking a terminator in a squad does NOT give everyone a 5++. Apparently, it really does.

Speaking of FAQs, this month's White Dwarf has an article about player feedback and how FAQs are incorporated into Age of Sigmar (and most likely 40K and the other games as well). Definitely worth the read to see their thought processes on the matter...

 cuda1179 wrote:
As noted in the DW tactics thread, I'm surprised they didn't FAQ it that taking a terminator in a squad does NOT give everyone a 5++. Apparently, it really does.

That's actually hilarious. Clearly it's intended to give Oldmarines a last hurrah.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As noted in the DW tactics thread, I'm surprised they didn't FAQ it that taking a terminator in a squad does NOT give everyone a 5++. Apparently, it really does.

That's actually hilarious. Clearly it's intended to give Oldmarines a last hurrah.

Isn't the Crux Terminatus rule one where every model in the unit has to have it in order for it to work?

Outside of Deathwatch, are there any other circumstances where some members of a squad have Crux and others do not?

Because if there aren't, I would define the Crux Terminatus ability as one which requires every member of the unit to have it in order for it to work.

And if it fits that definition, the rules are clear- like deepstrike and turbo boost, it would be an ability which can only be used if the KT is broken into Combat Squads, and every member of the combat squad has it.

The Crux ability IS weird though; I think GW should have kept it as an ability that was tied to the physical terminator armour itself, rather than making it something that can be used by regular old power armour troops. That would have disambiguated the issue.

PenitentJake wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As noted in the DW tactics thread, I'm surprised they didn't FAQ it that taking a terminator in a squad does NOT give everyone a 5++. Apparently, it really does.

That's actually hilarious. Clearly it's intended to give Oldmarines a last hurrah.

Isn't the Crux Terminatus rule one where every model in the unit has to have it in order for it to work?

Outside of Deathwatch, are there any other circumstances where some members of a squad have Crux and others do not?

Because if there aren't, I would define the Crux Terminatus ability as one which requires every member of the unit to have it in order for it to work.

And if it fits that definition, the rules are clear- like deepstrike and turbo boost, it would be an ability which can only be used if the KT is broken into Combat Squads, and every member of the combat squad has it.

The Crux ability IS weird though; I think GW should have kept it as an ability that was tied to the physical terminator armour itself, rather than making it something that can be used by regular old power armour troops. That would have disambiguated the issue.

Codex: Deathwatch (2020), Page 58 wrote:Crux Terminatus: Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save.

A single Terminator will give the entire unit a 5++.

Now, what it SHOULD say is "Crux Terminatus: Each TERMINATOR model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save." so it can work properly with the mixed Kill Teams, but simple checks like these are clearly too advanced for a company worth £2.75b

PenitentJake wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As noted in the DW tactics thread, I'm surprised they didn't FAQ it that taking a terminator in a squad does NOT give everyone a 5++. Apparently, it really does.

That's actually hilarious. Clearly it's intended to give Oldmarines a last hurrah.

Isn't the Crux Terminatus rule one where every model in the unit has to have it in order for it to work?

Outside of Deathwatch, are there any other circumstances where some members of a squad have Crux and others do not?

Because if there aren't, I would define the Crux Terminatus ability as one which requires every member of the unit to have it in order for it to work.

And if it fits that definition, the rules are clear- like deepstrike and turbo boost, it would be an ability which can only be used if the KT is broken into Combat Squads, and every member of the combat squad has it.

The Crux ability IS weird though; I think GW should have kept it as an ability that was tied to the physical terminator armour itself, rather than making it something that can be used by regular old power armour troops. That would have disambiguated the issue.

They got the wording right for Space Wolves, who can also have Terminators mixed into Power Armor squads. I'm a DW player, and even I don't like this, but RAW, everyone gets a 5++.

Yeah, the SW errata does the rule correctly. However, since a Kill Team can have multiple Terminators, I think it would need to be slightly different.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
A single Terminator will give the entire unit a 5++.

Now, what it SHOULD say is "Crux Terminatus: Each TERMINATOR model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save." so it can work properly with the mixed Kill Teams, but simple checks like these are clearly too advanced for a company worth £2.75b

If it says every model in the unit has a save on the original data sheet, that means that every model in the unit has to have the ability in order for it to work. There is no way for some members of a terminator squad (the original data sheet) to have the Crux and others to be without it. This means the Crux rule specifically falls into the category of rules that also includes deepstrike and turbo boost.

Which means that the following clearly written rule from page 51 (the "Creating Kill Teams" section) applies:

"If a model in a Kill Team unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have the ability in order to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their Kill Team unit has that ability."

GW could have made it clearer by putting this rule under the "Mixed Unit" heading instead of the "Building a Kill Team" heading. They also could have made it clearer by using the Crux ability in the example that follows, rather than the deepstrike ability.

One caveat though: I don't play this game the way many Dakkanaughts do- I play Crusade exclusively; in 31 years of playing 40k, I've played in exactly one tournament; that was also the singular occasion on which I ever played a game with a perfect stranger. When I play, I care only about the story and having fun. So due to the story thing I mentioned in my first post about the Crux Terminatus ability being connected to the not to the terminator armour itself, but rather to the badge, if I ever played against someone with a Proteus Kill Team consisting of 5 Terminators and 5 Veterans that had been modelled with the Crux Terminatus on each of their right shoulder pads, I would be 100% cool with giving those vets the save, DESPITE the fact that I genuinely feel that it's absolutely clear that the rule doesn't work that way. Furthermore, if this opponent also happened to agree with my interpretation of the rule and didn't ask for the save on his vets, I would probably suggest that they should have it, just because it would be so cool to play against that squad, even if it put me at a disadvantage.

Funny thing though? That player would probably still combat squad them anyway, because nobody seems to have any doubts that you can't teleport unless you do, which would render the whole thing moot anyway. I mean, honestly, would you rather burn points on a single terminator who would have to footslog along with five vets just to give those vets a controversial 5+ invul or buy four more terminators to get the flexibility of five plain old vets without invuls who can go do their own thing (great for performing actions, supporting other units, claiming other objectives) while 5 teleporting terminators with obsec make your opponent's life truly miserable?

PenitentJake wrote:
"If a model in a Kill Team unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have the ability in order to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their Kill Team unit has that ability."

Show me where the Crux Terminatus rule "requires every model in the unit to have the ability in order to use it."

You can't, because it doesn't. It simply says every model in the unit has a 5++.

Of course, those of us who aren't nut bunnies will just play terminators at 5++ and regular members of unit their appropriate save. Would be nice if GW would be more precise, however.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
"If a model in a Kill Team unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have the ability in order to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their Kill Team unit has that ability."

Show me where the Crux Terminatus rule "requires every model in the unit to have the ability in order to use it."

You can't, because it doesn't. It simply says every model in the unit has a 5++.

Show me how you can have a squad of terminators where some of them don't.

It doesn't specifically say that every model in a unit of bikes needs to have the turbo boost rule for any of them to be able to use it, so are you going to argue that footslogging vets can turbo boost when they are in a Proteus Kill team with a bike? You'd probably say, "Well no, it's pretty obvious you need to have a bike in order to use that ability, and clearly, the vets don't have bikes." Problem for your argument would be that I feel it's equally obvious that you need a teleport homer or Crux Terminatus in order to teleport.

The best example of intent is to look at KT Cassius; the have a terminator, a biker, and two jetpacks. The Terminator doesn't give a Crux save to anyone else in the unit; significantly though, he DOES keep his own Crux save (which means that Crux ability is NOT 100% analogous to Death From Above or Teleport Strike). As expected, no Teleport Strike or Death from above for anyone.

And if you don't care about intent because RAW, well then I guess your vets can Turbo Boost too.

Finally, I think the more salient point of my post is the one you didn't quote, which is that maximizing the flexibility of ALL of the Kill Teams in a DW army by making 5/5 splits to grant obsec to units that otherwise would not have it far outweighs a gimmicky way to get a controversial 5+ invul for 5 base troops, rendering the whole argument moot. The only time I can imagine using ANY Kill Team that wasn't broken into 5/5 combat squad was if I needed to burn a handful of left over points or PL, or if I coughed up the money to buy KT Cassius for the sake of getting the characters Chaplain Cassius and Codicier Natorian, and then just wanted so badly to put the other models in the box on the table, despite how inefficient and wasteful it is to field a KT that isn't broken into 5/5 combat squads.

Another poster mentioned a similar phenomenon with Spacewolves. The text in that book might be clearer and might make me reconsider my interpretation, but I'm not enough of a space marine player to care- the only SM that remotely interest me are those who act as Chambers Militant for the Inquisition.

I'm not expecting my posts to change anyone's mind; most of the folks I play with favour RAI over RAW, and we're all so damn casual that no one ever objects to the roll-off method of resolving rules debates. I am, however, willing to change my mind, but it's pretty unlikely- I'm pretty sure it would take something outside of the DW supplement and the SM dex to do it. Even if James Workshop himself filmed posted a video directed at me personally to tell me I was wrong, the folks I play with would probably say, "Yeah, even if that is the rule, we feel like it's kinda silly, and oh, no one here wasted points on gimmicks for the most insignificant models in the list and instead focused on maximizing the Deathwatch schtick for reasons of both fluff AND efficiency, so it doesn't really matter anyway."

Nah, BCB's 100% on the money here.

The rule, as written, gives the entire squad, regardless of what they are, a 5++ save as long as there is just one model in the unit with the Crus Terminatus rule.

It's clearly not what GW meant, but it is what GW wrote. That's all there is to it.

Particularly annoying when I consider the sticker shock I felt when seeing what giving 9th a try would cost. The quality should be a lot higher for the asking price.

$175 CAD! Just for the rules and codex for the only army I have updated to 9th. I thought they were a model company? Trying to ease us in to an all books business model after 3D Printing is ubiquitous?

PenitentJake wrote:

The best example of intent is to look at KT Cassius; the have a terminator, a biker, and two jetpacks. The Terminator doesn't give a Crux save to anyone else in the unit; significantly though, he DOES keep his own Crux save (which means that Crux ability is NOT 100% analogous to Death From Above or Teleport Strike). As expected, no Teleport Strike or Death from above for anyone.

The Cassius Crux Terminatus and Deathwatch Terminator / Proteus Kill Team Crux Terminatus rules wording are different. The latter should have what the former does, but they dont. Until it's erratad, they function differently.

 Eldarain wrote:
Particularly annoying when I consider the sticker shock I felt when seeing what giving 9th a try would cost. The quality should be a lot higher for the asking price.

$175 CAD! Just for the rules and codex for the only army I have updated to 9th. I thought they were a model company? Trying to ease us in to an all books business model after 3D Printing is ubiquitous?

You could try playing Infinity. The rules (and army builder ap) are free. Needs a bigger terrain investment though.

PenitentJake wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
"If a model in a Kill Team unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have the ability in order to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their Kill Team unit has that ability."

Show me where the Crux Terminatus rule "requires every model in the unit to have the ability in order to use it."

You can't, because it doesn't. It simply says every model in the unit has a 5++.

Show me how you can have a squad of terminators where some of them don't.

It doesn't specifically say that every model in a unit of bikes needs to have the turbo boost rule for any of them to be able to use it, so are you going to argue that footslogging vets can turbo boost when they are in a Proteus Kill team with a bike? You'd probably say, "Well no, it's pretty obvious you need to have a bike in order to use that ability, and clearly, the vets don't have bikes." Problem for your argument would be that I feel it's equally obvious that you need a teleport homer or Crux Terminatus in order to teleport.

The DW rules specifically say you can only use the Turbo-Boost ability if every model in the unit is a biker so your example is completely wrong. There's no need to invoke the intention of the rules as it's covered explicitly in the text.

What we're seeing here is the classic Rules as Written vs Rules as Intended debate. In this case it's clear what the rules say (everyone gets a 5+ Invulnerable) but I would contend it's equally clear that very close to 100% of people will not play it that way. That's fine in this case. There are two problems with this in a more general sense, though:

1. There will be times where there is not the same consensus about what the intention of the rule is. In those cases we need the rules to be more accurate so we know what they actually mean.
2. GW have been writing rules for a long time and their technical quality and editing are among the worst in the industry. This is deeply frustrating when they're also the most expensive in the industry. We should demand better.

That doesn't mean the Codex needs to be free from errors and unclear rules (though I think GW needs to do a lot better with their first attempts) but even the quality of the FAQs is often pretty poor. Questions often remain after the first FAQ, which indicates either a lack of understanding of their own system or a lack of care.

Is it true that if you lose all infantry models from a unit that includes outriders or bikers, and the models happen to be in a place where bikers wouldn't normaly be able to go, the unit is stuck there till the end of the game?

Slipspace wrote:
The DW rules specifically say you can only use the Turbo-Boost ability if every model in the unit is a biker so your example is completely wrong. There's no need to invoke the intention of the rules as it's covered explicitly in the text.

Huh? I don't see this.

Codex: Deathwatch (2020), Page 51 wrote:If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their original datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM has that ability.

And it then gives an example of Teleport Strike, not Turbo-boost.

The rules for Turbo-Boost:

Codex: Deathwatch (2020), Page 59 wrote:When this unit Advances, do not make an Advance roll. Instead, until the end of the phase, add 6" to the Move characteristic of models in the unit.

So this has the same wording as the Crux Terminatus, it grants the entire unit the ability and not all models in the unit need to have the ability to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Is it true that if you lose all infantry models from a unit that includes outriders or bikers, and the models happen to be in a place where bikers wouldn't normaly be able to go, the unit is stuck there till the end of the game?

FWIW I don't think so. The Mixed Unit ability doesn't care whether you combat squad or take casualties, all KILL TEAMS have the Mixed Unit ability, which lets those BIKER models treat terrain as if they were INFANTRY.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Huh? I don't see this.

It's part of the Kill Team specific rules, not the Mixed Unit rules. The Proteus and Fortis team cutouts specify that the only way Turbo Boost can activate is if the unit is comprised entirely of Veteran Bikers or Outriders respectively.

Sterling191 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Huh? I don't see this.

It's part of the Kill Team specific rules, not the Mixed Unit rules. The Proteus and Fortis team cutouts specify that the only way Turbo Boost can activate is if the unit is comprised entirely of Veteran Bikers or Outriders respectively.

Ah, fair enough.

Surely this actually proves the Terminator point correct though? Why would they call out the Turbo Boost ability and not the Crux Terminatus ability?

Karol wrote:
Is it true that if you lose all infantry models from a unit that includes outriders or bikers, and the models happen to be in a place where bikers wouldn't normaly be able to go, the unit is stuck there till the end of the game?

This is not accurate. Keywords dont change over the course of a game, and a Kill Team's keywords are determined at the list building stage (with one very specific carve out for Combat Squadding). They dont magically adjust based on casualties taken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Surely this actually proves the Terminator point correct though? Why would they call out the Turbo Boost ability and not the Crux Terminatus ability?

Theoretically, because they thought they had given the Cassius version of it to all Terminators, but forgot they hadn't. Alternatively, because an equivalent Turbo Boost-like restriction would result in Terminators losing their 5++ in Kill Teams unless in pure 5-man combat squads.

Realistically, the RAW on this is not in dispute, and attempting to divine the design intent is always difficult because of how many errors slips through. Remember that the FAQ for the Space Wolves confirmed the "everybody gets ObSec" before it was revised.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Huh? I don't see this.

It's part of the Kill Team specific rules, not the Mixed Unit rules. The Proteus and Fortis team cutouts specify that the only way Turbo Boost can activate is if the unit is comprised entirely of Veteran Bikers or Outriders respectively.

Ah, fair enough.

Surely this actually proves the Terminator point correct though? Why would they call out the Turbo Boost ability and not the Crux Terminatus ability?

This, and as well a 5++ ain't broken or anything. I'd play it as written.