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Warlord Games has announced a new scale for its Black Powder game. The new figures are apparently 13.5mm from toe to eyebrow, so apparently ever so slightly smaller than 15mm (though I've seen some commenters suggest that the size difference isn't enough to be noticeable on the table if you already have 15mm figures). The new release is for the American Civil War, and is currently set for release in February. Starting products include Union and Confederate plastic brigade boxes, both with 300 men, three cannons, and three mounted officers, for $32. The boxes sell the Union and Confederate troops separately. Some claim to have seen more slouch hats among the Confederate troops, so there might very well be a difference aside from the color of plastic that the troops are molded in.

Warlord is calling the new scale "Epic" to separate it from their usual 25-28mm fare. Don't confuse it with the more traditional 6-8mm scale popularized by GW.

The new size is also available in bundles. The first bundle is essentially two armies and extras (including scenery and an A5 rulebook) for slightly less than what one army would cost. The second bundle gets you even more stuff, including even more troops and two pieces of Gettysburg-specific terrain.


The site is here - https://acw.warlordgames.com/

Online store (US prices) with the full roll-out range here - https://warlordgames.myshopify.com/collections/epic-battles-american-civil-war

A brief teaser video (minute and a half; the only narration is 'The Battle Hymn of the Republic') - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkr2Zq3FM4g&feature=emb_logo

Note that the video includes stuff that's not in the roll-out, including Zuaves and supply wagons.

There's also a lengthy bit from Warlord TV that I haven't watched yet. The video is roughly an hour and a half, but the first 10:45 or so is dead air.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/845276999?t=0h10m8s


Edit - The January issue of Wargames Illustrated will include a sprue of the new troops.

That all sounds great, especially for napoleonic war era which is very suited for large scale battles.

I wonder whether they'll relaese such and extension for Pike and Shot

Couldn't they just use 10mm or 15mm? Of course not!

Everyone needs their own bespoke scale now-a-days for maximum return potential! Double plus good when combined with bespoke rules, dice, templates, and cards!

 Easy E wrote:
Couldn't they just use 10mm or 15mm? Of course not!

Everyone needs their own bespoke scale now-a-days for maximum return potential! Double plus good when combined with bespoke rules, dice, templates, and cards!

Black Powder is a long-standing rules system, and has been around for quite a while. There are no unique templates or dice for it. The only "exclusive" thing you need for it is the rulebook. There's nothing stopping you from playing Black Powder ACW in 15mm, and some people have apparently already been doing that. The change that this provides is extremely inexpensive small plastic figures suitable for a mass battle on a 6x4 table. Each of the three sprues in the brigade box run less than $11 for 100 men, a cannon, and a mounted officer. That's pretty inexpensive. And the starter box is over twice as big of a value.

In short; the *only* thing new that's being offered here are VERY inexpensive figures. If you've already got a 15mm ACW army by Wargaming Miniatures, there's nothing stopping you from buying the Black Powder rules separately (which you can get right now, as opposed to the figures which will be releasing in February). And if you just started buying figures for a 15mm ACW army but couldn't get all the troops you wanted in one purchase, you can wait until February and buy Warlord's new line. The Warlord figures are close enough to 15mm that you can probably use them both with some careful planning.



And a correction on something I put in the top post - the longer video states that both brigade boxes are identical aside from the color that the plastic is molded in. The sprue bundled with the January Wargames Illustrated will be in Confederate grey.

Yes, I have Black Powder and it is pretty much scale and model agnostic. It actually works better at the smaller scales in my mind.

Don't really get why exactly the rant there...

this gets "rant" everywhere for different reasons

first ACW is a theme you already get a lot in small scale for cheap
using a different scale so that it won't look good if you just expand your collection
non-historical 10 man rows that makes it harder to use

ACW is also a "small" war were the charme is in the details and differences between the regiments and factions which is a reason a lot of people (at least here) prefer 28mm

if they would have done something like SYW first (which would also allow to use the same sprue for all factions at this scale) it would have been a different story

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Don't really get why exactly the rant there...

If you want a rant, don't get me started on Marble cake!


I like the "idea" of this set of models.... I am just not a fan of the execution of it. It will not see my money, so there is nothing for me to worry about!

 kodos wrote:

ACW is also a "small" war were the charme is in the details and differences between the regiments and factions which is a reason a lot of people (at least here) prefer 28mm

Nothing "small" about the American Civil War. As the Warlord website notes, there were nearly three hundred battles over the course of the war. And there were more American casualties in that war than in any other war that Americans have fought in (over 600,000).

You *need* a smaller scale if you're going to be able to refight anything even remotely resembling many of the important battles of the war without taking up an absurd amount of space to do so. If all you want to do is refight Little Round Top, then sure, 25mm might be fine. But if you want to run the rest of Gettysburg at the same time, you're going to need units with a much smaller footprint on the tabletop.

first ACW is a theme you already get a lot in small scale for cheap
using a different scale so that it won't look good if you just expand your collection

For ten cents a figure? Because that's roughly what the cost of the basic brigade box in this offering comes out to. As for the scale, while I don't have any to compare myself, I've seen comments by multiple individuals who are convinced that these figures will look just fine alongside the 15mm troops that they already have.

ACW is the "small" war of that period

just to compare it, both armies of Gettysburg combined would have had no chance against any of the forces from the Königsgretz from the German War

it was big for the US and saw a lot of battles (while in Europe or Asia, there were less battles with bigger armies)

Eumerin wrote:

You *need* a smaller scale if you're going to be able to refight anything even remotely resembling many of the important battles of the war without taking up an absurd amount of space to do so. If all you want to do is refight Little Round Top, then sure, 25mm might be fine. But if you want to run the rest of Gettysburg at the same time, you're going to need units with a much smaller footprint on the tabletop.

this depends more on the ratio Figure:Soldier than on the scale of the models itself

if 1 model = one soldier, you need 2-3mm to get full scale battles of any size on the table, even for a "Skirmish" like Rorke's Drift

an ACW regiment was 10 companies of 100 Man (official) and 4-7 Regiments make a Brigade
if you go with a scale of 1:25, one company is a Base of 4 Models and 10 Bases make a regiment and games at Brigade level work well in 28mm
keeping that ratio and you want Division level games, reducing the size to 15mm wont be enough as 4-5 Brigades per Division on the Confederate side would mean 35 units

so playing Gettysburg were we had several Corps per side with 1:25 is not possible neither in 28 or 15mm

yet Warlord uses a scale of 1:1 for their models, wich is nice up to a point, because now you can play the Battle of Litte Round Top with exactly that amount of Man/units that were really there but there is no advantage for playing bigger battles because the models are in 10 man rows and you cannot cut them up into smaller ones and you need to convert them to get Flags in each Base to have 1 Base = 1 Regiment to play larger games

in this case you get a ration of 1:50 and the big Box + 2 Brigade Boxes (which are became actually Division Boxes) would get you the models needed to play Gettysburg (but still be too large for a normal sized table)

so details about the single regiments some of them under strength etc. is not really a thing any more and impossible to do anyway with a fixed 10 man per model/cast and you can also use a ratio of 1:100 and play Gettysburg in 28mm making it 10 per Regiment (or 1:250, making it 4 models per Regiment instead of the 4 models per Company and you can use the same Bases for smaller and larger battles)

For ten cents a figure? Because that's roughly what the cost of the basic brigade box in this offering comes out to. As for the scale, while I don't have any to compare myself, I've seen comments by multiple individuals who are convinced that these figures will look just fine alongside the 15mm troops that they already have.

they might be the cheapest option (were others are between 15-40 cent per model), but also the one with the least options while 15mm scale is big enough to make up details on the uniforms that were there
not even talking about paying 20 cent instead of 10 per model and you get individual models making it much easier to actually get the real regiments in size and form

and some people here said the opposite, that those won't look very good next to their metal models

I stopped taking you seriously after your comment about Koniggratz.

Prussia feployed 600k troops in the APW, Austria 500k.

The Union deployed over 2 million, and the Confederates another 1 million. The small war is the "German War", not the ACW. The reason you have larger battles in the APW is because the forces were spread out over an area the size of Virginia. The ACW, of course, was fought over an area larger than the entirety of Europe.

I don't know were your numbers come from, but the Union had 95.170 to 104.256 and the Confederacy 65.210 to 75.000 soldiers (depending on the source) at Gettysburg

the whole Army strength during the war was 2.8 Million for the Union and 1.1 Million for the Confederacy, which includes losses replaced during the war

and no, USA is not physically larger than Europe and the Civil war was not taking place on the width of the whole continent

I hope this turns out to be a great success as that will probably lead to more plastic releases!

ACW seems like a great start. Very popular period in the U.S (obviously) and somewhat popular in other places as well. The armies are also quite similar in look and don't include lots of unique or special troops that need dedicated miniature support. Any gamer should be able to get going with the initial releases and we will hopefully see some cavalry soon.

Plastics have improved so much over the last couple of years but the 15mm scale hasn't seen as much of it as larger scales have. Hoping this will inspire other manufacturers to release 15mm plastics!

I didn't say anything about numbers at gettysburg, so your entire first paragraph is pointless.

Your second paragraph reiterates my point.

To your third point:



This map is incomplete, as there were a number of military actions in the west that don't meet the technical definition of a battle because one or both sides were composed of irregulars and partisans or were too small to be noteworthy (Battle of Stanwix Station in Western Arizona near the California border for example). Many of the western battles are consodered to be part of separate conflicts as the Indian Wars were ongoing and concurrent with the ACW. The natives in the northwestern states and territories especially were likewise rebelling against the Union, some even formally cast their lots with the Confederacy hoping to gain better terms under the southern government than they had with the Union.





Likewise, most of the war in the western half of the country was fought by forces in being, i.e. troops setting up fortifications and sitting and waiting to become relevant. Doesn't mean there were tens of thousands of soldiers garrisoned across the western states in active military fortifications. Oregon and Washington, for example:



The area of the US is 3.8 million sq mi.

The area of Europe, excluding Russia which I and most Americans regard as being in Asia, is 2.4 million sq mi.

Gicen that there were battles and skirmishes fought as far west as Los Angeles, CA, as far south as Brownsville, TX, as far north as the canadian border (St Albans Raid), and obviously battles fought along the atlantic coastline, and countless thousands of troops stationed by both sides across the length and breadth of the nation and its territories - yes, the US is larger than Europe and battles were fought across the entirety of the continent.

This doesn't even begin to address the naval war which included battles as far away as Cherbourg, France, Bahia, Brazil, off the coast of Alaska, etc

chaos0xomega wrote:
I didn't say anything about numbers at gettysburg, so your entire first paragraph is pointless

no, but I was talking about Gettysburg and you replied that there were 2 million Union soldiers

so either you make up something in your fantasy or you just cannot read


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chaos0xomega wrote:
. The ACW, of course, was fought over an area larger than the entirety of Europe.

Europe is 10,180,000 km2, USA is 9,826,630 km2 (including the Great Lakes)

and as the USA was smaller by that time (and the war was not fought on the entire Union as your maps show) if the war did not expand to Canada or Mexico, it is physically impossible that the ACW was fought over an area larger than Europe

The context of my post should have made it clear I was discussing the deployments of the war, not the battle.

Your area figure includes the portion of Russia west of the Urals - as I said, Americans generally don't regard Russia as being part of Europe (nor do most of the Europeans Ive met, but I digress), and thus I exclude that area, dropping it to 6.2 million km^2. So, again, the ACW was fought over the area of the US

And seeing as how the St Albans Raid included the raiders being chased several miles over the border - the war did, in fact, expand jnto Canada.

Likewise, the Confederates utilized the port of Bagdad/Matamoros, Mexico as a major trading port, as the Union couldn't legally blockade it. The Union responded by landing 40,000 troops in Brazos de Santiago on the opposite side of the Mexican border, from where they launched a small number of cross-border raids to apprehend Confederate troops and trade supplies, and forced the French garrison of rhe city to seize ships and turn them into Union custody. So the war also did expand into Mexico in a limited way as well.

But irregardless of all of that, the entirety of the Austro Prussian War was fought within an area smaller than Texas, the ACW on the other hand - quite clearly - was fought over an area significantly larger and over a much longer period of time. Put in simpler terms that you should be able to understand: The American Civil was a far larger war than the Austro Prussian War was, suggestion to the contrary is embarassingly stupid.

Russia is part of Europe, as well as Canada is part of America


the point was that a 15mm scale with a 1:1 ratio of Models to Soldier is less suitable to play the Battles likes Gettysburg than 28mm

even if the ACW Battles were smaller compared to others of that time (and European Wars in general) going with a 1:1 ratio allows you only to play the small fights of a battle (like Litte Round Top)

going from 15mm 1:1 is not suitable to play Gettysburg in the same way 28mm 1:25 cannot do it (as the advantage of the smaller scale is lost) and you came up with the numbers for the whole war, that make no sense in the context at all

This looks like an OK idea. I bet getting these guys painted and on the table will make it pretty quick too. I wonder if the scale is more equivalent to the Essex Napoleonic 15mm scale which I describe as "gnomes" vs the larger scales of other manufacturers (approaching 18mm) which my buddy describes as "ogres".

Easy, I'm not really sure why they chose 13mm, but I bet it has more to do with manufacturing constraints than a sinister cabal. Although I'm not ruling that out.

What's interesting is that the BP ruleset makes skirmishers extremely powerful and their use is desirable in games. So I'm a little uncertain how they plan to depict this with 20 men per base. I like them but would prefer some more detail (I'll watch the vid later) and would have prefered 15mm or 10mm.

Regarding the historical conversation, I think that the set battles of 19th century Europe were far larger and the loss of life uncanny compared to the ACW. This was surprising to me as an American too. I just really learned this over the last two years, orignially thinking the ACW dwarfed the Napoleonic era.

However, the scope of maneuver, running battles, terrain difficulties, technological advancement, far flung battles, political intrigue, morality of war and mortal struggle of the ACW makes it a more compelling story for me personally. Different fights for different times. One fight being political systems vying for legitimacy based on maneuver, offense, and Elan while the other being largely defensive, attritional, asymmetric, and a moral struggle. Both conflicts were fraught with tragedy, victory, blunders and broad scopes.

I am pretty sure it was not some sinister cabal too.

However, it always seems weird that people seem to flout current scales all the time now. It makes little sense to me.

Perhaps I am just bitter as 6mm and 10mm are my favorite scales for this type of conflict, and these overlook that? LOL.

I think 6mm would be my favorite but I don't have any. Bought a crap ton of 10mm ancients then realized 15mm is what most use for DBA and LADG. Now I can't give them away.

 kodos wrote:

the point was that a 15mm scale with a 1:1 ratio of Models to Soldier is less suitable to play the Battles likes Gettysburg than 28mm

I didn't say anything about 1:1. Even with the new Warlord figures, 1:1 would probably be hard-pressed to play Little Round Top. It might be doable if you had a lot of figures and lots of space. There were apparently just under 3000 present on the Union side while the Confederates had around 48-4900 men. Men to figure compression is going to happen outside of the smallest of battles. Warlord is marketing the new set as 10:1 (each figure stands in for ten men), though of course players are free to use them however they choose.

But while a certain amount of compression is understandable, eventually it starts to become a glaring distraction. A single figure starts to represent more and more men, and eventually you end up with an entire division represented by eight figures in a movement tray. Otherwise you don't have enough space for the battleground (when building a gaming table, you need to keep in mind both the space you have available to place the table in, and make sure that the center of the table isn't out of reach).

I'm not a fan of that sort of thing. And that's why I cringe whenever people start talking about doing anything other than the smallest ACW and Napoleonic skirmishes in 25mm (or larger).

However, it always seems weird that people seem to flout current scales all the time now. It makes little sense to me.

To a certain extent, I agree with you. On the other hand, though, scale-creep is a widely acknowledged problem throughout the industry. Figures of a given scale from one manufacturer aren't necessarily the same size as figures supposedly of the same scale from another manufacturer. I would have preferred that Warlord go with an even 15mm. But at least I don't have to worry about whether I'm buying 18mm men marketed at 15mm.

What's interesting is that the BP ruleset makes skirmishers extremely powerful and their use is desirable in games. So I'm a little uncertain how they plan to depict this with 20 men per base.

I'm curious about how they'll handle skirmishers, as well. I don't know how many here have gotten a good look at the figures. But as I've noted since writing the original post here, the figure are arranged in lines of ten, all connected at the "ground". Some surgery will be required to turn them into individually-based skirmishers. And I think it's safe to say that you won't be able to use the bundled bases for that. On the other hand, the preview video did show more troops than what's in the initial roll-out. So it looks like more troops will be announced soon. I suspect that there will be some allowance for skirmishers in there.

I saw pictures somewhere of what looked like dismounted cavalry, so I suspect we'll also see skirmishers at some point.


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DIT: Probably skirmishers instead of cavalry now that I look closely

I'm pretty excited for this. As a casual historical gamer with an interest in ACW, I reckon I'm this game's target audience.

Warlords whole shtick is to basically apply the GW model to historicals, meaning broadly that one company produces rules, background, and models for a given system and period, with core models available in plastic. This is no different, just in a bespoke scale.

I think it works for two key reasons. First, even within a scale, manufacturers vary dramatically, so even if they did pick, say 10mm, it might not match many collections. Second, by using plastic and ranking them up shoulder to schedule, it allows far more models per stand. Second, the ACW has far less difference in arms, equipment or uniforms within or even across armies. Yes, there are colorful exceptions like the iron brigade or zuaves, but a union unit can be dropped into any battle and fit. So the setting favors a smaller model range.

I’m eyeing this, not because I see myself playing it (although I might get lucky and find a willing partner) but because I enjoy the time and I want to encourage them to apply this model to other periods. If this was ECW (a period with more unit diversity, but essentially no differences between the armies for most units), I’d pre order.

My issue isn't with the scale, it's with the total disregard for uniform details. I understand why they only wanted the expense of a single sprue, but they would have been better off making it half union, half confederate rather than making them identical with a weird mixed uniform look.

This is the intial "will this actually sell?" roll-out. We've got video of other figures. So if this sells, there should be more options on the way.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
My issue isn't with the scale, it's with the total disregard for uniform details. I understand why they only wanted the expense of a single sprue, but they would have been better off making it half union, half confederate rather than making them identical with a weird mixed uniform look.

Oh man, looking closely, you're right. It's one sprue for both, with mixed kepis and slouch hats throughout. That's a shame, because while that works perfectly well for the rebs, it's a stretch for the Union.

I saw some guys who got their hands on free sprues had figured out that with a little bit of xacto knife skills you can pretty easily convert the slouch hats to kepis to fix that problem.

EDIT: Technically they are forage caps rather than kepis

It's also something of a boon for those of us with tighter budgets looking to get into the period while we have the time but not necessarily the funds. It's a good deal for a start, and I can store it out of the way until the munchkin is old enough not to grab at my desk. I'd be happier if I'd managed to grab the deal with Meade and Lee, but still happy that I can get my army of the Cumberland and even happier if they eventually put together something for the western theater.

While I don't share the same frustration over uniforms, I do wonder how much conversion work I'll have to do to find different regimental flags in their unique scale, since printing flags from my computer is a bit beyond me.

Happy to preorder overall, though!

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Don't really get why exactly the rant there...

He has a point and it has been ntd on other sites. Warlords recent releases have been very...
>1/300 coastal wars game, odd scale but okay
>1/600 age of sail game, a very unusual scale, no cross compatibility
>1/1800 ww2 naval game, a really weird scale, no cross compatibility
And now
>12mm ACW minis in 10 man strips, no cross compatibility
Its a very GW move, an attempt to lock people into their products