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The problem with pictures like that is we have no idea if those hits were from a las pistol or a macro cannon.

There is lore about Terminators being taken out by a single Gretchin shotgun blast to weak joints (2nd Ed rulebook IIRC) and a Terminator surviving being stepped on by a Titan. Of a Titan being killed by a few Marines with Melta bombs or surviving an Exterminatus event. Of unarmoured IG killing Genestealers (albeit sometimes with a Pariah around) and of Genestealers tearing Terminators apart.

There is no consistency or logic in the WH40K universe.

Only in computer games are attack values certain.

In the real world all kinds of variables come into play. A lucky shot through to an unlucky shot. Being stepped on is fine if you have good armour and happen to get pressed into softer surrounding ground.

Titan's can be breached intrnally by a few marines - heck the old game had a titan arm which was basically a big fist that punched the enemy and invaded it with marines.

"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.

 Overread wrote:
Only in computer games are attack values certain.

X-com (and a lot of other games) are laughing at you right now.

 Matt Swain wrote:
"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.

It's my headcanon admittedly but I view the successful to hit roll as meaning the shot "hit" or passed through the area occupied by the base of the model (and the space above the base), and a successful to wound roll is actually substantially hitting the model. A failed to wound roll for a lascannon against a Guardsman for example would be the shot hitting the mud at his feet or narrowly missing like passing between his legs, or just by his head.

Iracundus wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.

It's my headcanon admittedly but I view the successful to hit roll as meaning the shot "hit" or passed through the area occupied by the base of the model (and the space above the base), and a successful to wound roll is actually substantially hitting the model. A failed to wound roll for a lascannon against a Guardsman for example would be the shot hitting the mud at his feet or narrowly missing like passing between his legs, or just by his head.

Yeah, if you were to fire any 40k weapon at an unarmoured creature from 40k at point blank range, they should all penetrate their bodies to some degree. Even a space marine should die from a laspistol to the temple. The wound roll definitely can't be literal.

That 1 represents technical hits that are grazes, singes, flesh wounds etc.


No one seriously thinks a space marine captain is actually tougher than a normal battle brother do they? That those 5 wounds mean their temple bone is 2.5 times as resilient and would require 5 laspistol shots to kill them? How about a guard colonel? Their skulls are apparently 5x thicker than a guardsman...


The fact that characters have more wounds than standard troops is evidence that they aren't literal but representative - those characters are better at avoiding taking full on hits.

The combination Hit, Wound Save are all different forms of abstraction that even overlap in their representation of those abstractions - armour saves should be made between hits and wounds for example, as failing it is what determines whether you have a chance to be wounded or not...

 Hellebore wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.

It's my headcanon admittedly but I view the successful to hit roll as meaning the shot "hit" or passed through the area occupied by the base of the model (and the space above the base), and a successful to wound roll is actually substantially hitting the model. A failed to wound roll for a lascannon against a Guardsman for example would be the shot hitting the mud at his feet or narrowly missing like passing between his legs, or just by his head.

Yeah, if you were to fire any 40k weapon at an unarmoured creature from 40k at point blank range, they should all penetrate their bodies to some degree. Even a space marine should die from a laspistol to the temple. The wound roll definitely can't be literal.

That 1 represents technical hits that are grazes, singes, flesh wounds etc.


No one seriously thinks a space marine captain is actually tougher than a normal battle brother do they? That those 5 wounds mean their temple bone is 2.5 times as resilient and would require 5 laspistol shots to kill them? How about a guard colonel? Their skulls are apparently 5x thicker than a guardsman...


The fact that characters have more wounds than standard troops is evidence that they aren't literal but representative - those characters are better at avoiding taking full on hits.

The combination Hit, Wound Save are all different forms of abstraction that even overlap in their representation of those abstractions - armour saves should be made between hits and wounds for example, as failing it is what determines whether you have a chance to be wounded or not...

Considering the fluff lethality of some of the weapons in 40K, it is very possible to argue there is no such thing as a "graze" or flesh wound when it comes to things like plasma or melta beams. I would argue failed to wound rolls in those cases are not even grazes but near misses. A total wider miss would be failing the to hit roll.

Yes, the sequence of rolls is illogical and messed up but I doubt GW is going to change it. It should be to-hit, then invulnerable/dodge saves, then armor, then to wound, moving inwards towards the target.

Post combat recovery is one thing that I would say is the key difference between a Marine and say Guardsman. A plasma hit might "kill" both of them in game terms, and result in them being taken off the table. However in terms of the universe, the Guardsman will expire, while the Marine might survive, with a scar or bionics. So that's my personal headcanon for all the Marine casualties on the table, that most of them may have been rendered combat ineffective but will survive.

It's also the only way I can countenance the casualty rate of Eldar on the table.

Their psycho active armour reacts to damage, plugging holes and releasing medication, such that the number of actually dead Eldar after a battle is very small

In my personal headcannon I'd tend to visualise an Astartes attack vs. guard as being like a tank company hitting an infantry battleline in WW2 or maybe medieval knights charging into peasant infantry.

The enemy don't stand much of a chance against the initial attack. A concentrated force of marines are are probably just going to roll over the enemy at first and sure, most of the guys with rifles might not be able to do a lot in that situation, but there are weapons that do represent a real threat and gradually casualties start to mount up. The attackers will be facing enemies in prepared positions with overlapping fields of fire and as they start to push through the enemy lines they become vulnerable to enemy getting round the sides at rear. Due to attrition from heavy weapons, dwindling ammunition and increasing resistance as the enemy react to the push and fall back to defensible positions the attack gradually begins to break up and bog down and must eventually halt or fall back or risk becoming surrounded and destroyed. The more casualties mount and the more the attack breaks up the more vulnerable the marines get. Even lasguns are a threat in that situation as marines fall prey to guardsmen getting behind them and putting shots into joints and weak spots whilst they are slaughtering the rest, like knights getting dragged down and having daggers stuck in their visors.

It keeps marines as awesome, seemingly unstoppable super soldiers whilst placing some real limits on what they can do and explaining why formations like the guard are needed. The marines are great for breaking through the enemy lines or securing a limited objective but they usually lack the numbers to do more. Attrition will wear them down and they still have to be careful not to over extend.

I know I am going entirely off fluff here which is never good, but don't most chapters "replenish" with new recuits fairly regularly? Because I'm sure over 10,000 space marines have died in the last few millennia. In Brothers of the Snake, the chapter actually builds about 15-30 new recruits into full battle brothers over the span of several chapters in the book. It's not like there are ONLY those 1000 marines and thats it. That has never been the case.

I think if we ignore the more extreme examples in the fluff (marine killing a titan, a few marines subduing a planet) and take that as imperial propaganda (the earlier versions of 40k really emphasized that none of their codices/novels/etc. should be taken as literal truth, but an amalgamation of truth/myth/imperial propaganda/occasional miracles/weird warp stuff/etc.) then you are left with the fantasy in space comparisons, coupled with impossible levels of biological engineering.

A marine to a guardsmen is something like a late medieval (full plate armor, mail, padding, etc.) knight vs a serf. Except, it's more extreme because space marines have built in redundancies (extra heart, lungs, etc./ultra fast blood clotting/ability to effectively enter suspended animation while healing/etc.). A guardsman with a las gun might get lucky and wound a marine, but it is effectively impossible for them to outright kill a marine. Given the lethality of special weapons in 40k, a guardsman with a melta, plasma, sniper rifle, etc. has a better chance of severely injuring a marine, but they need to 1.) survive incoming bolter fire to get a shot off; 2.) not flinch in the critical moment and land a kill shot. A single heart shot wouldn't kill a marine/puncturing a lung or even two wouldn't kill a marine/etc. They could still wound one, severely injure one (given that power armor has weak points at the joints), but if we take the oft-repeated lore at face value - a marine can lose an arm and fight on without much hinderance - then it is far less likely that guardsmen would succeed in outright killing a marine.

But, as others have said, if you use the knight vs peasant allusion, enough peasants swarming even the best equipped knight will still eventually take one down (as long as they don't panic and flee). Therein lies marines' greatest strength. Knights remained dominant on the medieval battlefield until countries began using well-trained blocks of disciplined infantry using a combination of pikes/halberds/billhooks/warhammers and ballistic weapons crossbows/longbows/guns. If guardsmen remain disciplined, work together and bring their special/heavy weapons/tanks to bear, they can kill space marines, but that is easier in theory than practice, since marines rarely engage large numbers of guardsmen without their own masses of cannon fodder or they choose precise, lighting attacks to decapitate leadership, then withdrawal. Anyways, just my thoughts on it.

I'm gonna go full fanboi and say a single guardsman is worth 10 astartes. And where do I get the gall for this claim?

HERE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyGDo1ARpjI

I'll see myself out and to the woodshed.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
I think if we ignore the more extreme examples in the fluff (marine killing a titan, a few marines subduing a planet) and take that as imperial propaganda

Marines never die, they're just Missing In Action!

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
I think if we ignore the more extreme examples in the fluff (marine killing a titan, a few marines subduing a planet) and take that as imperial propaganda

Marines never die, they're just Missing In Action!

Marines are Sub-Marines?

I imagine marine power armour to be proof against most infantry weapons. Discounting AT grenades, and hand held launchers(which would be my go-to. If the can kill a tank, they can kill a marine, problem is delivery, and that really balances it out because a tank is a bigger and less agile target)
Of course when the rounds are caught on the armour plate it's not going to do much.or probably anything. But the gaps, grill and occulars would be weak points.
A marine will probably not walk off the likes of a heavy stub round through the occular of his helmet or through his throat. It may well glance from most other surfaces(this is why you pack AP capped ammunition). Of course the occulars are really small to avoid this.

Las-round through the throat, could kill if it hit something important. But that's about the same for a regular human. Honestly I don't think a marine would have much advantage in this case. The area is just too vital.

Melee is a funny one becasue between the plates (are indestructible to any conventional melee weapon a human is going to bring to bear) the marine's physiology (which is going to make burgeoning super ineffective, and any flesh wound you deliver will mean nothing) and soft armour in the gaps (I can see a flexible but very effective armour similar to a kevlar weave being employed here) to stop any stabbing into the joints.

Thus in melee combat making a marine untouchable to a human with a conventional melee weapon. And basically any alien equivalent. Although it does not mean you can't throw a heap of penal troops at the marines to tie them down and blow them all the hell with basilisks.

But if the marine is not wearing a helmet it's a different story.

Energy weapons, depends on the relative power of the weapon to the armour as this seems to vary a bit in fluff. I imagine guard plasma/melta to be scaled down(or astartes to be scaled up?) and thus less lethal. But a centre of mass shot against an unshielded marine is going to kill him. Does not matter how many hearts the marine has; a miniature star has just entered his chest and effectively spot-boiled everything his chest contains and exploded it. Because that's what happens when you have a massive transfer of heat(energy) into a confined space that is filled with predominately water.

Use your numbers to lay down such a withering tide of explosions and shells, strobe them so hard with your las-weapons that the marines are pinned in place and do not stop till they die.
But this is assuming the marines are arrogant enough to play ball. I imagine they'd put that in the too hard basket and act at a more opportune time.


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 Hellebore wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.

It's my headcanon admittedly but I view the successful to hit roll as meaning the shot "hit" or passed through the area occupied by the base of the model (and the space above the base), and a successful to wound roll is actually substantially hitting the model. A failed to wound roll for a lascannon against a Guardsman for example would be the shot hitting the mud at his feet or narrowly missing like passing between his legs, or just by his head.

Yeah, if you were to fire any 40k weapon at an unarmoured creature from 40k at point blank range, they should all penetrate their bodies to some degree. Even a space marine should die from a laspistol to the temple. The wound roll definitely can't be literal.

That 1 represents technical hits that are grazes, singes, flesh wounds etc.


No one seriously thinks a space marine captain is actually tougher than a normal battle brother do they? That those 5 wounds mean their temple bone is 2.5 times as resilient and would require 5 laspistol shots to kill them? How about a guard colonel? Their skulls are apparently 5x thicker than a guardsman...


The fact that characters have more wounds than standard troops is evidence that they aren't literal but representative - those characters are better at avoiding taking full on hits.

The combination Hit, Wound Save are all different forms of abstraction that even overlap in their representation of those abstractions - armour saves should be made between hits and wounds for example, as failing it is what determines whether you have a chance to be wounded or not...

It would explain some of the tactical debacles...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Against guard power weapons. I imagine they'd be pretty rare, and of lesser power than a marine's, But gak they'd be dangerous. I'd imagine that if it came to a melee fight the astartes might just prioritise killing all they guys with power weapons. The marine has faster reflexes etc so it's not really a competition. But a section of like void suited solar auxilia power-axe weilders when power weapons are extremely rare among astartes, wow. It'd be murder. That one case I marines backing up and attempting to win with gunfire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do you defend yourself when his axe has just cut straight through your chainsword? And he has like twelve mates for every one of you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think killing an astartes would be somewhere between killing a 16th century knight and killing a tank. You need to just keep doing it until you're 100% certain it's dead for good. Because otherwise it might come to life again and start killing you again. This is sort of why I don't put credence in the 'coma thing'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
An anecdotal similarity: the German Gepard Flak tank of the Cold war had 2 x 35 mm autocannons, a caliber much to small to penetrate a contemporary Main Battle Tank. Yet it was tested and proven that if forced to fight, a Gepard Salvo could damage the optics, treads and turret mechanics so badly, that it could damage a MBT enough to retreat. It's the same principle like lasguns vs. Powerarmor.

It could also work to override the marine's senses. having the air an unending crackle of lasfire and his optical display much the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Heat resistant doesn't mean immune to heat. Enough concentrated lasgun fire will kill a marine. The armour will eventually fail. Lasgun shots aren't bullets.

That said, I'd like to address the whole "shoot them in their un-helmeted head" idea. How many CSM are running around without helmets? That's a loyalist thing. Most CSM have survived too long to be that stupid. Remember "Beware a man who has survived a long time in a very dangerous profession". And a lot of CSM have survived for millennia in a very dangerous profession.....

Well respectfully enough bullets would also ruin the armour. Especially if they are designed right.

 Hellebore wrote:
It's also the only way I can countenance the casualty rate of Eldar on the table.

Their psycho active armour reacts to damage, plugging holes and releasing medication, such that the number of actually dead Eldar after a battle is very small

Or possibly soul stones were/are retrieved by comrades in the case of a defeat or victory?


Invulnerable so far as the order of dice rolls suggested above is a funny one, when you start considering what the source of the invuln is, is it psychic or from a physical source, I can't see an adamantine mantel taking effect before a normal save throw given the lore behind such things. Such an ambiguous topic in all fairness once you start down the rabbit hole(s)

I thought oul stones only save their souls. For putting into the infinity circuit or wraith units. Their bodies being single use. Outside of VIPs of course.
Although even then say a heap of guardians get caught in a barrage of heavy artillery fire. Their armour is going to do diddly squat to keep them alive and their soul stones could be shattered by the blasts. So it's time to get nom nom nommed by Slaanesh. It's the same problem with the marine coma thing. You can be killed, and I'm sure most armies(especially a particularly guard unit) would make certain to not give the enemy the reprieve of recovering their injured. It is total war after-all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about you guys but if I was a guard commander I'd prioritise this kind of operation, almost more than the battle itself. Afterall who the hell wants to have to kill the same enemies twice? Guard's strength is it can whittle down it's numerically inferior enemies and hold the battleground with numbers.
And as you're attacking you'd want to be moving heavy weapons teams and tanks up to cover your men, these would be great to deter the enemy a chance to recover their losses, or to make them risk losing more, which is effectively a bonus.

Hell even just laying intense artillery fire on areas you have contested with the enemy would work.

 OldMate wrote:
I thought oul stones only save their souls. For putting into the infinity circuit or wraith units. Their bodies being single use. Outside of VIPs of course.
Although even then say a heap of guardians get caught in a barrage of heavy artillery fire. Their armour is going to do diddly squat to keep them alive and their soul stones could be shattered by the blasts. So it's time to get nom nom nommed by Slaanesh. It's the same problem with the marine coma thing. You can be killed, and I'm sure most armies(especially a particularly guard unit) would make certain to not give the enemy the reprieve of recovering their injured. It is total war after-all.

This is my point, there aren't enough eldar for them to keep going to war and being straight up killed that often. Soul stones are very hard though, and survive all sorts of things from space ship crashes to annihilated battlfields. Wraithbone alone is one of the toughest substances in the galaxy.

My expectation is that for the eldar to conduct war the way they do, with guardian armoured tissue paper, their psychoreactive suits are also damage reactive and can release drugs and have limited healing functions. eldar medicine is psychic in nature and if they decide to get prosthetics they are psychoplastic and indistinguishable from their normal limbs. Thus the material can mesh with their flesh in some way. All their technology is very organic and grown, so it makes sense they can mesh with their bodies in some way.

Ergo, it would take a very lethal hit to permanently kill an eldar as their suits would deform into the wounds and hold them together until they could be sung the song of healing.

Ok, this is classified and the inquisition will be after me for telling you this, but here's how IG forces defeat CSM:

Selected members of the guard leave their copies of "The imperials guardsman's uplifting primer" in the path of approaching CSM.

The first CSM to find it picks it up and starts reading, after a few seconds he's laughing uproariously and his buddies ask what's so funny.

He starts reading aloud from the IGUP and within 1i minute every CSM in earshot in on the ground ,doubled over, holding their bellies laughing so hard they're utterly helpless.

the guardsmen just creep in and plant grenades at the back of the neck collars of their armor and KRAK! Dead CSMs.

Of course the guardsmen who left their copies of the primer for the CSM to find are awarded medals for valor then executed for losing them but hey, it really sucks to be in the guard.

There’s also casualties on the tabletop not representing the ‘death’ of a model.

Now, background wise, a Bolter is very much designed to kill rather than maim or incapacitate. One of those goes off in your arm, and that side of chest is likely to go missing too.

But....other infantry weapons? Well, Lasguns are far more survivable. Indeed it’s noted the advantage/disadvantage is they cauterise the injury, preventing blood loss. So if you survive the initial hit (heat and kinetic energy), you’re at little risk of bleeding out. Shock might get you yet, but that’s still relatively survivable.

Ballistic weapons? Well, modern bullet proof vests (roughly comparable to Flak armour) will stop say, a shot to the chest penetrating the body. But depending on the calibre, you can still end up with broken ribs, which would take out of the immediate fight.

We can also delve into the old Inquisitor game. There, again if memory serves, a slice of Power Armour’s protection is ablative. A layer there to take the first couple of hits. In theory that’s all you’ll really need, as the wearer will be in amongst the foe. But if not, it’s protection is reduced, albeit it still remains impressive.

But the cabling and technogubbins? If a Lasgun hits those (again, heat and kinetic energy in play), it can deal damage which is easily fixed outside of the field, but for the time being is debilitating.

Astartes of all flavours then have their biological defences. Sure, a Meltagun or Plasma gun could evaporate limbs wholesale. Against most foes, that’s a death sentence due to shock. Astartes? Not so much. Synthetic combat stims keep them going, and their body does what it can to reduce the impact of such loss. Once you’re back, a bionic replacement can see you good as new.

So it could be that Eldar Armour is really good at preventing catastrophic injury, but not so great at preventing knock outs, windings, broken bones etc - stuff which you will ultimately survive, but prevent you fighting on further. Against artillery? It need only absorb enough of the blast to prevent organ trauma (such as bruising to the heart and that), despite the wearer being otherwise prone to temporary incapacitation. Bending like a Reed in the wind and that.

To the best of my knowledge, we’ve not really had an in-depth description for Mesh armour, beyond ‘it thickens at the point of impact’.

Lasguns are hit or miss on that.
Some say it auto-cauterises the wound for you, so you're good.
Other sources say it flash boils the fluid and results in a steam explosion.
I'm more inclined to believe the latter, as they wouldn't have they wouldn't have the sort of exposure time in a single lasbolt to cauterise anything.

Isn't mesh always described as generally a literal mesh that acts almost like a non-newtonian fluid. It gets harder the harder you hit it. Allowing total freedom of movement but locking up instantaneously when hit by a bullet or whatever.
Makes

You're absolutely right though that casualties in the game aren't necessarily deaths. Just incapacitations in some way (maybe it's en entirely healthy guy carrying off a wounded comrade = two table top casualties).
40k is perhaps a bit more contrived in this though due to the sheer lethality of weapons it presents. When everyone is slinging around high explosives rockets to massive plasma bolts or ripping each other limb from limb with energy swords there isn't much room for injury.

TBF, there are so many types of lasguns...

Vostroyan ones are basically Boltguns but with easy access ammo.

The standard one needs modifying (not liked if that happens, commisars get angry and so get techpriests)

Mind, autoguns are also a mixed bag, often described as more powerfull but logistically an issue to maintain over the standard lasgun patterns.

Part of the point is there's so much hilariously contradicting fluff.
One says all lasguns are supposed to be functionally the same, each Forgeworld might have a different shape of stock or some extra greeblies but functionally its the same and things like powerpacks should even be interchangable.
Another says each Forgeworld uses entirely unique designs and matching one shipment of powercells to the equivalent lasgun is a logistical nightmare.

Personally, I don't really like the idea that there's no such thing as truth in 40k/it's all biased narrators or whatever.
But it's definitely the current state of things. Each writer uses what they want for plot contrivances.
Is it really any different from a generic Hollywood goon missing from 3ft with an assault rifle and then dying to a weak punch, vs the hero taking a sniper rifle to the chest, then murdering 50 Goons with a six round pistol?

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, this is classified and the inquisition will be after me for telling you this, but here's how IG forces defeat CSM:

Selected members of the guard leave their copies of "The imperials guardsman's uplifting primer" in the path of approaching CSM.

The first CSM to find it picks it up and starts reading, after a few seconds he's laughing uproariously and his buddies ask what's so funny.

He starts reading aloud from the IGUP and within 1i minute every CSM in earshot in on the ground ,doubled over, holding their bellies laughing so hard they're utterly helpless.

the guardsmen just creep in and plant grenades at the back of the neck collars of their armor and KRAK! Dead CSMs.

Of course the guardsmen who left their copies of the primer for the CSM to find are awarded medals for valor then executed for losing them but hey, it really sucks to be in the guard.

That.... that actually sounds like something someone's tried in the IoM.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, this is classified and the inquisition will be after me for telling you this, but here's how IG forces defeat CSM:

Selected members of the guard leave their copies of "The imperials guardsman's uplifting primer" in the path of approaching CSM.

The first CSM to find it picks it up and starts reading, after a few seconds he's laughing uproariously and his buddies ask what's so funny.

He starts reading aloud from the IGUP and within 1i minute every CSM in earshot in on the ground ,doubled over, holding their bellies laughing so hard they're utterly helpless.

the guardsmen just creep in and plant grenades at the back of the neck collars of their armor and KRAK! Dead CSMs.

Of course the guardsmen who left their copies of the primer for the CSM to find are awarded medals for valor then executed for losing them but hey, it really sucks to be in the guard.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also casualties on the tabletop not representing the ‘death’ of a model.

Now, background wise, a Bolter is very much designed to kill rather than maim or incapacitate. One of those goes off in your arm, and that side of chest is likely to go missing too.

But....other infantry weapons? Well, Lasguns are far more survivable. Indeed it’s noted the advantage/disadvantage is they cauterise the injury, preventing blood loss. So if you survive the initial hit (heat and kinetic energy), you’re at little risk of bleeding out. Shock might get you yet, but that’s still relatively survivable.

Ballistic weapons? Well, modern bullet proof vests (roughly comparable to Flak armour) will stop say, a shot to the chest penetrating the body. But depending on the calibre, you can still end up with broken ribs, which would take out of the immediate fight.

We can also delve into the old Inquisitor game. There, again if memory serves, a slice of Power Armour’s protection is ablative. A layer there to take the first couple of hits. In theory that’s all you’ll really need, as the wearer will be in amongst the foe. But if not, it’s protection is reduced, albeit it still remains impressive.

But the cabling and technogubbins? If a Lasgun hits those (again, heat and kinetic energy in play), it can deal damage which is easily fixed outside of the field, but for the time being is debilitating.

Astartes of all flavours then have their biological defences. Sure, a Meltagun or Plasma gun could evaporate limbs wholesale. Against most foes, that’s a death sentence due to shock. Astartes? Not so much. Synthetic combat stims keep them going, and their body does what it can to reduce the impact of such loss. Once you’re back, a bionic replacement can see you good as new.

So it could be that Eldar Armour is really good at preventing catastrophic injury, but not so great at preventing knock outs, windings, broken bones etc - stuff which you will ultimately survive, but prevent you fighting on further. Against artillery? It need only absorb enough of the blast to prevent organ trauma (such as bruising to the heart and that), despite the wearer being otherwise prone to temporary incapacitation. Bending like a Reed in the wind and that.

To the best of my knowledge, we’ve not really had an in-depth description for Mesh armour, beyond ‘it thickens at the point of impact’.

That's my read on it. The armour isn't indestructible or anything, it's just very good at ensuring the wearer isn't dead if they're injured. Incapacitated sure, but keeping them alive is like the raison detre of the eldar, so it's only way I can parse such crappy armour for the majority of their civilian population...

Fun fact about body armor: Those anti bomb armor suits you see people wearing in some situations? They are really only meant to keep your body intact so its much easier for the the forensics and clean up teams to deal with.

it's essentially meant to be a very expensive body bag.

If you see me running....you're already dead!

 Matt Swain wrote:
Fun fact about body armor: Those anti bomb armor suits you see people wearing in some situations? They are really only meant to keep your body intact so its much easier for the the forensics and clean up teams to deal with.

it's essentially meant to be a very expensive body bag.

Spoiler:

That's really not true. They're designed to take the edge off the blast.
Sure it wont help you if a 155mm shell IED goes off in your face, but it will save you from a smaller blast or from a larger blast further away.

What I do find amazing when reading memoirs of war and such is just how random death is.
On one occasion a man will take a 9 bullets to his chest and neck, and survive. On another they'll get shot in the arm once and die.
Not only that, but the comparatively few casualties that often occur in even hopeless last stands. Probably the most famous example is Omaha beach, renown as a total slaughter where the first waves were almost completely destroyed, yet they suffered less than 50% dead and wounded.
Wargames typically fudge this reality. Instead every small skirmish results in 75%+ casualties on the losing side, many entire squads are wiped to a man. Because they don't have proper suppression mechanics and often don't have any suppression mechanics at all.
Then, any wargames which introduce a campaign have to remedy that and fudge numbers so that one side doesn't have half their army dead every game.
For example, in Necromunda you can take a full multi-melta blast the face and fall into a molten slag furnace and surface with minor injuries almost every time. Not only that but you can crawl back to base despite the enemy gang completely surrounding you.

What I think is interesting about memoirs is the fatality of injuries.

I read an account of the defence of Tobruk

Basically early in the seige the Afrika Korps were establishing a foothold past one of the tank ditches so they could bring engineers and bridge it. They brought up maybe 30 soldiers armed heavily with machineguns, as you do, when you want to consolidate a position.The Australians organised a swift counter attack. A section led by the platoon leader crept as close as they could(not really close at all it is a desert and this as in front of their positions) then charged with bayonets and grenades(Honestly why is this not a rule when closing to melee in wargames?). One of the blokes copped a burst of a machinegun fire to the stomach and neck but pressed on(somehow), The Afrika Korps position was overrun and a melee ensued. The injured soldier killed several German soldiers, including one who was trying to shoot his CO. The Afrika Korps troops then were quickly overcome and routed(I mean it has to be damaging to moral if you're expecting a gunfight and 10 blokes charge through a hail of fire, and in the tail of a handful of grenades get into you with frickin 55cm long bayonets). The injured soldier was taken back to the lines but died of his injuries.


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Perhaps morale rules need modifying as well?