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Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
Fun fact about body armor: Those anti bomb armor suits you see people wearing in some situations? They are really only meant to keep your body intact so its much easier for the the forensics and clean up teams to deal with.

it's essentially meant to be a very expensive body bag.

Spoiler:

That's really not true. They're designed to take the edge off the blast.
Sure it wont help you if a 155mm shell IED goes off in your face, but it will save you from a smaller blast or from a larger blast further away.

What I do find amazing when reading memoirs of war and such is just how random death is.
On one occasion a man will take a 9 bullets to his chest and neck, and survive. On another they'll get shot in the arm once and die.
Not only that, but the comparatively few casualties that often occur in even hopeless last stands. Probably the most famous example is Omaha beach, renown as a total slaughter where the first waves were almost completely destroyed, yet they suffered less than 50% dead and wounded.
Wargames typically fudge this reality. Instead every small skirmish results in 75%+ casualties on the losing side, many entire squads are wiped to a man. Because they don't have proper suppression mechanics and often don't have any suppression mechanics at all.
Then, any wargames which introduce a campaign have to remedy that and fudge numbers so that one side doesn't have half their army dead every game.
For example, in Necromunda you can take a full multi-melta blast the face and fall into a molten slag furnace and surface with minor injuries almost every time. Not only that but you can crawl back to base despite the enemy gang completely surrounding you.


its basically because gamers (in general) are intrested in, and looking for, a "cinematic" battle that is has a clear, decisive winner & looser, with the looser vanquished and beyond recovery. a more "realistic" firefight that consists of two armies both on their belt buckles, sat several hundred meters apart taking pot shots at fleeting targets for 6 hours, before one side withdraws, just isn't as "exciting".

In campaigns, we run into the problem that most fights were indecisive skirmishes between small units and large "set piece" battles of the type most wargames represent are very rare. When they did happen, they tended to be decisive and no comeback for the loser was possible. But that's not fun, so we fudge it.

your right, real world casualty figures are often much lower than Hollywood would have you believe, but its important to remember that most official casualty reports are for the unit as a whole, which almost always includes troops not involved in the fight. For example, the 1st infantry division, one of the two that stormed Omaha, did so with just one of its three regiments, and only about 3,000 troops out of over 15,000* actually stormed a defended beach, and so the casualty reports (which are normally reported at for the division as a whole) can dilute the reality of how badly damaged the combat units are. the "troops to tail ratio" goes up dramatically as the unit size increases, so casualty reports for corps and field armies include vast numbers of soldiers who almost never get shot at, again diluting the apparent losses of the combat arms.

In ww2, to support a division's roughly 10,000 "fighting troops" (ie soldiers whose actual job in the army was to kill the enemy), it took about 35,000 men total, spread between the division itself, the corps and army it was subordinate too, plus support staff deep in the rear, in England, and even back in the US, involved in training, medical care and recuperation, rear area logistics, etc). this figure is known as the "divisional slice", and is and was a important metric in war planning as it gives you a better idea of the total troops needed to achieve an effect)


*for those wondering about how a difference between the size of the regiments and the size of the division, the Div includes a lot of things like regiment sized formation of heavy artillery, plus engineers, signals units, logistic, medical, mechanics, Anti-air and other service troops, etc, that are needed to support the fighting infantry, but dont fall under the command of the 3 regimental combat teams.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/21 12:56:53


To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






mrFickle wrote:
I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless
You talk big for someone within artillery barrage range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/22 13:46:36


 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

mrFickle wrote:
I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless



and then the IG flatten the area with arty rounds shooting "final defensive fire"/"broken arrow" fire missions, since they know, with a high degree of certainty, the co-ordinates of the position.

but your right, CSM would normally not enguage a battle they couldn't win. the fact that many, many worlds surrounded the eye of terror for thousands of years without being slaughtered every decade or two tells us that the IG can and does stand off CSM raids on a regular basis.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

We had a thread here recently with people arguing apparently earnestly that 5 space marines could conquer an entire planet.

So I mean, knowing that Imperial Space Marines are about twice as powerful as the average traitor marine, it should only take a squad of 10 to conquer most planets.

I guess it might take twelve or so if the planet is well defended or particularly big.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/22 15:07:34


   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Depending on who is telling the story a space marine can be as good as superman, but that is just silly. I think the truth is they are superior to normal humans physically but and mentally and have better gear..which is great but they still die like anything else if you shoot them with the right gun. Shooting them with lasguns is pretty dumb and liable to get your head blown off before you can do any damage...however like Jurgen in Ciaphas Cane series does...shoot him with a meltagun and you bagged yourself a space marine kill.

Basically the Space marines are not that godly when you use the right weapons. Heavy weapons are the big winner against space marines, autocannons, heavy bolters and the like will shred a space marine without much trouble.

In short - With the proper weapons Imperial guard can beat anything. However if you only give your guard lasguns they can't stand up to heavy infantry of any kind very well. Anyone using mass lasgun's is basically just trying to get lucky throwing men at them...but this is a extremely poor use of men IMO.
   
Made in au
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot







To be effective marines and csm need to make full use of deployment options against softer and more critical targets. Even then it would be tough(any commander worth his salt would recognise this and cover such areas with artillery so any potential attack would be severly punished). They do not by themselves have the numbers to fight guard symmetrically. Unless (and they really should because chaos NEEDs this) they have their own regiments of guard equivalents(tyrants legion was on the right track IMO). Cultists are not proffessional or generally equpited well enough to do this, they need real regular soldiers, logistics, artillery etc. Then they could totally fight guard with the marines being a potent force multiplyer rather than the main hitting force.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/26 22:58:32


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






A squad of CSM in the open are soft targets for anything like a Leman Russ, a Valkyrie, or artillery. That's what's going to be doing the work, not the lasguns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 22:55:49


The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.

My 95th Praetorian Rifles.

SW Successors

Dwarfs
 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

The role of the noble lasgun is simply to extend the range of the Imperial Guard's greatest weapon. Chaos Space Marines stand little chance against the bayonet.



All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Humorless Arbite





Maine

US Army training was about the same. I remember being instructed during a demo with the drill Sergeant on H2H rifle techniques to "swing like you have a pair". I was the attacker, a chopping strike from high Guard and he was defending with a classic high block. His M-16a1 handgards were not up to the task and shattered. The gas tube was mangled. He looked at the rifle in disgust and said " that's why I'm a tanker....".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And THAT is why the CSM have such a hard time with the guard. They have a fething tank division for every individual CSM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 18:16:28


Voxed from Salamander 84-24020
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's certainly not impossible.

1) Guard have numbers, lots and lots of numbers:

Take a civilized world of 10 billion people. Not too dissimilar to our Earth today. They have a standing PDF equivalent to 1% of their total population. That's 100 million PDF soldiers, then the Imperium come along and demand their 10% Guard tithe.

That's 10 million soldiers taken from the best of the PDF.

A hive world with a population of 100 billion can tithe 100 million Guardsmen.

The true scale of the Guard is quite crazy. That's also using very conservative numbers as that 1% figure is our current population underarms. A highly militarised society like the Imperium with a completely war driven economy could be as high and sustainable as 10% of the population.

2) Weapons: The Guard has weapons that can kill tanks. If they can kill tanks they can defeat power armour. Missile launchers would probably be the most common form of anti-astarte weapon. Other common anti-astarte weapons would be lascannons and melta guns. Plasma guns of course too, but in the lore at least they're typically rarer in the Imperial Guard.

Then there's the heavier weaponry. An astartes would be screwed if they encountered an armoured unit in open terrain. Battle cannons and conqueror cannons with AP ammunition, demolisher cannons, annihilator lascannons, vanquisher cannons, and the incredibly rare executioner plasma cannons. Then there's the artillery, both self-propelled and carriage mounted variants.

3) Infantry tactics would then use the 8 riflemen in the squad to distract a single astarte then the missile launcher operator would take their shot. Obviously it would be rare to find a single astarte by themselves, so you'd scale this up to a squad of astartes against an infantry platoon (even potentially an infantry company). If for whatever reason the Guardsmen deployed don't have any kind of anti-tank weapons, they could always start bundling up their frag grenades (which was a common WW1 anti-tank tactic). If we stretch this even more, say something like an under-equipped feudal world regiment. They'd be stuck with attempted to hit weakpoints.

Tanks and artillery is easier. You use your mobility, range, and firepower to every advantage.
   
Made in au
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot







Well during the 2nd punic war the Romans moblilsed `~16% of their population. Which is insane. They fielded approximately half of that at Cannae, the day of the Republic's(And Empire) worst defeat. Which I can see a PDF force doing in time of invasion.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 10:02:23


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





More soldiers just means more blood for the blood god
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 OldMate wrote:
Well during the 2nd punic war the Romans moblilsed `~16% of their population. Which is insane. They fielded approximately half of that at Cannae, the day of the Republic's(And Empire) worst defeat. Which I can see a PDF force doing in time of invasion.


It's pretty impressive for a classical era fighting force. In Germany during WW2 they reached over 30% of their population, but by that point they were conscripting teenagers and the elderly. Though I'm sure the Imperium wouldn't really care about that either if it came to defending one of their worlds.
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Heavy Bolter is the imperium's designated weapon of choice against power armoured targets. Lasguns are for dealing with civvies and for general crowd control.

Last time I checked, the guard has ample access to HB's and even more powerful antitank weaponry

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 06:02:14


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





As if the CSM are just going to sit let AM shoot at them. And as if the AM are going to give out loads of heavy bolters. In any AM army 80% of the force is using a lasting. The AM main weapon against any foe is attrition, simple vast numbers of soldiers all charging to their doom until the enemy run out of bullets.

The main problem I see that an AM force would need to overcome is not having half of your force seduced by chaos. One minute it’s trench foot, the next minute your a pox Walker infecting your trenches with papa nurgles love
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

The reason 80% of Guardsmen are armed with lasguns is because CSM aren't a serious threat.

Yes, if you happen to be the one regiment in thr entire sector that's unlucky enough to be caught in the path of the CSM's advance, you're in for a bad time.
In that situation, you'll have to try and make use of thr special/heavy weapons you do have, or hope for external support.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





But also AM are not sent to deal with CSM, that’s the SMs job
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




mrFickle wrote:

The main problem I see that an AM force would need to overcome is not having half of your force seduced by chaos. One minute it’s trench foot, the next minute your a pox Walker infecting your trenches with papa nurgles love


This is the most accurate defence against Guard vs Chaos. Guard certainly have the ability to kill marines in general, but the risk of them falling to Chaos when in proximity to it is their biggest issue. If they're fighting true Chaos Marine legions then the risk of them being corrupted is even higher.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Their devotion to the Emperor and the watchful eyes of the Commissars will keep them in line. Failing that an intense bout of church/beatings/executions until a new batch of fresh loyal faithful troops is sent to replace them.
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

Point the weapon at the enemy. Breathe a prayer to the Throne.

Shoot.

Thought for the day
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think on whether or not the guard can stand up to CSM's depends on the context.

CSM's and SM's aren't supposed to be main line combatants. They're special forces. We should only be seeing them at pivotal points in combat and on the battlefield, unless we're dealing with something like entire chapters/legions taking the battlefield, and even then, outside of HH, should be supplemented by massive amounts of IG and traitor guard/cultists.

As mentioned before, an entrenched or mechanized guard with heavy weapons and armored/artillery support will eat even the toughest CSM's up. So that's a big incentive for the CSM's not to provide them with a target--they'll do decapitation strikes, terror tactics, sabotage, spies, and so on.

CSM's have several tactical and strategic advantages over their counterparts:

1) They're usually on the offensive. This means that they can pick when and where to strike, go after soft targets, and generally deny battle until where they're mostly suited.

2) They tend to have hidden or otherwise unassailable bases, like in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom. This means that the Imperium can never take the fight directly to them, except in cases where Chaos entrenches themselves (which is why I find the Sabbat Crusade so interesting--the Imperium is on the strategic offensive against Chaos). This means that no matter how badly the CSM's are mangled, they can almost always break and retreat to lick their wounds.

3) They still have an integrated command structure with their space forces. CSM's don't have to rely on another branch for their supplies or transportation. If they command their ships to do something, those ships will do it.

4) CSM's command structure is probably more secure than the average Guard's. They've been at war for centuries if not more, and unless someone manages to take out the very top head honcho, killing someone high up won't necessarily cause the war to turn to gak. Contrast this with the Guard where it's clear that for every hero like Yorrick, Gaunt, etc., there's 20 incompetent sycophants that are around by sheer accident or overt (moral, non-chaosy) corruption.

5) CSM's have almost unlimited troops with certain caveats. If they can, they can turn whole swathes of prisoners into slaves into sacrifices to summon daemons or plague zombies. They can create cultists or even train up traitor equivalents of regiments. The caveats are, of course, daemons have a time limit and cultists are extremely poorly trained, but your average PDF is little better trained too, so it's a wash. You can believe that the CSM's will happily release this fodder onto the battlefield to act as cover while they assault vulnerable support positions.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
Their devotion to the Emperor and the watchful eyes of the Commissars will keep them in line. Failing that an intense bout of church/beatings/executions until a new batch of fresh loyal faithful troops is sent to replace them.


Tell that to to the blood pact
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






They didn't believe hard enough and since they are traitors they're as good as dead anyway.
   
Made in au
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot







 Gert wrote:
They didn't believe hard enough and since they are traitors they're as good as dead anyway.

Blood Pact ain't traitors. They were not part of the imperium, they're their own entity.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Many BP are former Guard or PDF, especially officers. It's one of the reasons they are able to counter the Guard so effectively, they know the tactics/weapons/strengths/weaknesses. Most Cults just pick up gear when they need it but the BP actively takes prisoners, armour, weapons and supplies from the battlefield to make sure it stays an effective fighting force. Why train soldiers and produce their equipment if you can corrupt them and turn them to your side, bringing their gear with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 11:52:51


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Altima wrote:
I think on whether or not the guard can stand up to CSM's depends on the context.

CSM's and SM's aren't supposed to be main line combatants. They're special forces. We should only be seeing them at pivotal points in combat and on the battlefield, unless we're dealing with something like entire chapters/legions taking the battlefield, and even then, outside of HH, should be supplemented by massive amounts of IG and traitor guard/cultists.

As mentioned before, an entrenched or mechanized guard with heavy weapons and armored/artillery support will eat even the toughest CSM's up. So that's a big incentive for the CSM's not to provide them with a target--they'll do decapitation strikes, terror tactics, sabotage, spies, and so on.

CSM's have several tactical and strategic advantages over their counterparts:

3) They still have an integrated command structure with their space forces. CSM's don't have to rely on another branch for their supplies or transportation. If they command their ships to do something, those ships will do it.


Hmm, not sure I agree here.

Some of the former Legions? Sure. They’ll have materiel stashed away considered rare. But, they also left a lot unrecovered materiel on Terra when Horus’ assault failed.

Beyond that? They all have their own pacts with the Dark Mechanicum. And it’s the Dark Mechanicum that provides the quantity and quality needed. As so many rely upon the DM, nobody can singularly strong arm them. As such the DM can set its own prices for their services.

The majority of CSM forces are described as independent warbands, able to do as they wish. But with that comes no permanent holdings. No recruitment worlds etc. If a whole Chapter turns? Sure they’ll retain Tech Marines. But many are dribs and drabs, and may be heading off with little more than the armour and kit they have at the time.

So they very much do rely on others for resupply and maintenance. You might well have the knowledge to repair your ships....but where’s your shipyard and materials to affect said repairs? Same for replacing Rhinos, Predators and Land Raiders etc. You can absolutely maintain them, but to replace them requires workshops, and those require raw materials. Those have to come from somewhere. With relatively few having wholly owned planets, you need to go raiding for them, because nobody on your own side is going to give them for free.

CSM face all sorts of logistical challenges Loyalists simply don’t, because Chaos isn’t as unified and structured as the Imperium.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The secret ingredient is crime Grotsnik
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Oh indeed, but a botched raid can leave you even worse off. Yet, to get the goodies you need (beyond victims to sell to the DM), you need to attack something kinda substantial, and so more likely to be defended.

I mean, if you need to get your Predators back in working condition, you need materials suited to it. A botched raid could see you leaving empty handed, a brother or two short and with a freshly knackered Land Raider added to the bill.

That the Traitor warbands haven’t collapsed into diminishing returns is testament to their abilities though!

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





CSM don’t have to steal stuff, they have manufacturing equipment dating back to pre heresy, which will include STCs and half the mechanicus turned over to the heresy
   
 
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