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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 l0k1 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
 l0k1 wrote:
Amusing to note that Helbrutes don't have Missile Launchers listed at all.


That means they pay no points for them.


I must have misinterpreted it then. Thanks!


Yea - it's the same for the CCW - not listed, because it is base. They just figure dropping the ccw for a ml is the same cost.
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ah, gotcha. I never bothered to read those articles. I could say your take on it being a set up is cynical, but I wouldn't doubt Nanavanti actually holds those thoughts.


For sure he and the other art of war players say and do choose to go second reasonably often. Certain missions do have a problem for the second player if their opponent can jump forwards and survive on the midfield but that's more of an issue with the mission design.

 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

Really feels like Reavers and Hellions have had their points mixed up.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






My ork buggy list went from giving up 17 VP for bring it down to just 9 VP

I also really like the while we stand, we fight change. Up till now it was either a trap or had to be exploited to score any points.
Forcing your opponent to go through a unit of 10 blightlords or 20 plague marines seems pretty awesome though. It might even be worth trying for orks with units of MANz or something like flash gits sitting in a transport.

I don't think there is a big advantage in using it with buggy squadrons though, as buggies are paper thin, killing nine over the course of a game should be trivial. Squadrons of MBH or LRBT though...

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

Secondaries... WWSWF seems weird but bring it down and abhor is great to see- those blasting about TS and GK still giving away max points- I think now at the point where you've given max points you are no longer in any position to win the game. 2 characters and 5 units or 3 characters and 3 units that are all psykers screams an L. Would be nice if assassinate wouldn't double dip though.


I don't think you understand how resilient 5 man 1w space marine squads are. Or even termintors, in an edition where people have the main opponent as 2W primaris and optimise against killing those. And yeah neither 1ksons, nor GK are great right now, but just because they are not great, it shouldn't mean they should have an auto take double dipping secondary that works 100% of times, and the GK or 1ksons player can't do a thing about it. But lets say you lose 2 characters and 4 units. This still a great secondary point wise, it double dips, and if your opponent plays WWSWF, which probably does, and you go after those so important to GK characters and high cost units, you are not only doing your objectives, but stoping the GK player from doing his. At which point it becomes a triple dip, and is not very fun to have around. I would maybe understand it if both GK and 1ksons had super easy warp objectives to do and had huge % win rates under their belts.


Also it is kind of a hard to imagine when some people say that losing 3-4 tanks or vehicles per game can easily happen, but losing 4 units and a bunch of characters is somehow a rare you were losing anyway situation.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Planning to get a Defiler for my Thousand Sons, delighted to see Twin-Lascannons are now just 10pts!


Be aware that may be a typo. The twin lascannon upgrade is 30pts on the normal CSM Defiler.


Oh I know but a man can dream...
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Am i correct in assuming that all melee weapons, except chainfists and powerfists, are now free for CSM termis ? They arent listed in the MFM2021, so they cost nothing ? A termi with power axe and combiplasma was 38, and now is 33 ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 11:57:28


 
   
Made in es
Wicked Wych With a Whip





 Bosskelot wrote:
Really feels like Reavers and Hellions have had their points mixed up.


It would be awesome that Hellions were 10 points. Firstly I thought that they would be too good, but thinking about it, 10ppm Hellions would be just fun and playable. Better weapon and speed in exchange of ObSec and the Sv++ of the Wyches seems about right.

10 pts Jetbikes are of course a typo, or an awful attempt from GW to sell those kits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 12:28:52


The Bloody Sails
 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 p5freak wrote:
Am i correct in assuming that all melee weapons, except chainfists and powerfists, are now free for CSM termis ? They arent listed in the MFM2021, so they cost nothing ? A termi with power axe and combiplasma was 38, and now is 33 ?
You would use the last listed price, unless the unit specifies 'wargear included'.
Explicitly free items are listed as cost = 0.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Nightbringer going up 20 points is nonsense. It wasn't remotely underpriced, the other three are just overpriced
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

A.T. wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Am i correct in assuming that all melee weapons, except chainfists and powerfists, are now free for CSM termis ? They arent listed in the MFM2021, so they cost nothing ? A termi with power axe and combiplasma was 38, and now is 33 ?
You would use the last listed price, unless the unit specifies 'wargear included'.
Explicitly free items are listed as cost = 0.


Not true. From the MFM2021 :

You can use this book to determine the points (pts) value of
each unit in your army. Each entry lists the unit’s size (i.e. how
many models the unit can contain) and how many points the
unit costs. If an entry has a unit cost of ‘x pts/model’, then the
unit costs x points for every model in that unit. You must then
add points for each weapon, or item of wargear, that is included
in that unit if it is listed in that unit’s entry (weapons and
wargear not listed in a unit’s entry cost no additional points to
include in that unit).
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 p5freak wrote:
Am i correct in assuming that all melee weapons, except chainfists and powerfists, are now free for CSM termis ? They arent listed in the MFM2021, so they cost nothing ? A termi with power axe and combiplasma was 38, and now is 33 ?


Yes, this is correct. It also makes sense when you compare them to loyalist terminators. A chaos terminator with PF and bolter is 33, a loyalist with the same loadout is 38 but has an extra wound. An axe/plasma blightlord would be 45.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 13:53:31


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

 Ghaz wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
The 2021 MUNITORUM FIELD MANUAL is a free download

This leads me to believe that the 2021 Chapter Approved will be released in December.


Possible. I think we're going to see the new 2021 GT Pack and New points in July though.

4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
:Necron: Necron Discord: https://discord.com/invite/AGtpeD4  
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles






The Tau changes are a clown fiesta. Some highlights:

The Coldstar's HOBC is now free, but costs 8 to replace with the inferior version since you MUST take the missile pod with the HOBC. Coldstars have a point cost listed for CIBs even though the codex says they cannot be taken.
Troop's DS8 support turrets no longer have a price listed for SMS, but the missile pod variants just doubled in price.
Ghostkeel flamers are now free, has a 5pt shield generator which is half the cost other normal suits pay for it.
Speaking of which, Riptides have a point cost listed for them as well after previously being forbidden.
Tactical drones cost 20 pts per model as a FA choice despite every model costing 10/15pts.
Broadside SMS cost 13 points unlike other suits.
Hammerheads/Skyrays/Devilfish no longer have attached drones as an option or they are baked into the cost. Either way the devilfish pays 5pts less per SMS.
The stormsurge and V'Vahra both pay 30pts for shield generators.
Shielded missile drones are 5 pts cheaper than missile drones and cost the exact same as a shield drone despite being both.
The MV52 shield drone has a point cost despite not having a single unit capable fielding it.

They could probably use a FAQ...

   
Made in it
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





 DominayTrix wrote:
The Tau changes are a clown fiesta. Some highlights:

The Coldstar's HOBC is now free, but costs 8 to replace with the inferior version since you MUST take the missile pod with the HOBC. Coldstars have a point cost listed for CIBs even though the codex says they cannot be taken.
Troop's DS8 support turrets no longer have a price listed for SMS, but the missile pod variants just doubled in price.
Ghostkeel flamers are now free, has a 5pt shield generator which is half the cost other normal suits pay for it.
Speaking of which, Riptides have a point cost listed for them as well after previously being forbidden.
Tactical drones cost 20 pts per model as a FA choice despite every model costing 10/15pts. -> yet they still are 2 PR for 4 models in the new Power Rating Update, +1 PR for each +2 Drones added to the squad (implying they cost 10 pts each, not 20)
Broadside SMS cost 13 points unlike other suits.
Hammerheads/Skyrays/Devilfish no longer have attached drones as an option or they are baked into the cost. Either way the devilfish pays 5pts less per SMS.
The stormsurge and V'Vahra both pay 30pts for shield generators.
Shielded missile drones are 5 pts cheaper than missile drones and cost the exact same as a shield drone despite being both.
The MV52 shield drone has a point cost despite not having a single unit capable fielding it.

They could probably use a FAQ...



 
   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
I haven't been on dakka in a good long while and after having looked through this thread I remember why. Cheers guys.

Regardless, I came to see what people's initial reactions were and to chuck in my own two cents on the changes and that's what I'll do.

Firstly, I think it's really important to properly consider that with this round of FAQs they have reviewed every single model in the game, along with the usual changing a handful of the core rules and FAQing other specific interaction problems. For nothing. When they usually charge you at least 20 quid for it (which I always hated). I think that's a pretty great thing for the rules team to have done especially in covid times.

Cheers


While I agree with you regarding dakka in general (though some threads are quite good honestly, and the mods do a good job of locking down the worst ones), I think you are very naive if you think they have reviewed every single model in the game. Goraknauts Morkanauts for example still have the same outrageous cost, I won't go into every unit whose cost didn't change, but should have, it would be too long. They clearly only modified a few unit and option costs here and there, half of which make no sense at all.

I love what they did on last turn scoring, as well as the the secondary mods (aside from the mod to While We Stand which I hate). But on cost modifications, they got the tyranid part more or less good, but for example they totally missed the opportunity to rebalance melta weapons, among other things. I think they did like 20% of all units, and not even did that well those who did get on their radar. Of course it is a free download. You get what you "pay" for ("pay" because most people don't pay they just get the pdf without paying).

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




They clearly only modified a few unit and option costs here and there, half of which make no sense at all.


Haven't had time to really test this, but it almost feels like they adjusted according to anything they have tourney data for (Eradicators for example) , and anything that has consistently received a ton of complaints everywhere as being awful (Reanimator). This would explain why Gorka/Morkanaughts didn't get much attention.

They aren't used much on the tourney scene, and you don't hear much about them anywhere else, so GW doesn't have enough data and thus isn't sure how to adjust them.

I do agree they are over-costed though ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, as I'm playing Necrons atm, the changes are minor for me as I don't play C'tans.
Reanimator is a great model but not so great game-wise.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, as I'm playing Necrons atm, the changes are minor for me as I don't play C'tans.
Reanimator is a great model but not so great game-wise.


I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I'm still wrapping my head around the heavy, heavy nerfs to Imperial Guard superheavies. Did they win a tournament somewhere?
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Even with the big points drop, I still don't see myself running a reanimator any time soon. 80 points is still too much for how quickly it dies.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


Having tried it in a ton of games, I respectfully disagree. It's just so easy for a lot of armies to basically 1-shot. I wouldn't consider it until we hit maybe 70. At that point you could make the argument that it's too cheap for it's abilities, but the problem is, GW fethed up here with the model. It's too difficult to hide, and WAY too squishy, so even though it's got decent abilities and a decent strat, it's pretty much a 1-turn auto-kill for most opponents.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:

I also really like the while we stand, we fight change. Up till now it was either a trap or had to be exploited to score any points.
Forcing your opponent to go through a unit of 10 blightlords or 20 plague marines seems pretty awesome though. It might even be worth trying for orks with units of MANz or something like flash gits sitting in a transport.

I don't think there is a big advantage in using it with buggy squadrons though, as buggies are paper thin, killing nine over the course of a game should be trivial. Squadrons of MBH or LRBT though...


There are a couple issues with WWSWF.

First, do units that split after deployment (buggies) count as a unit before or after the split?
Second, units that can be willfully split seem like something that can be heavily exploited by Custodes especially.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm still wrapping my head around the heavy, heavy nerfs to Imperial Guard superheavies. Did they win a tournament somewhere?


People played them last edition, so they must be too good and need to not be played this edition. Maybe the Guard Codex will hand them some kind of massive buff but more likely you're waiting for 10th Edition in 2024 and the new Baneblade kit with four new variants that are all much better than the last ones before Guard superheavies are playable again.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Tycho wrote:
I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


Having tried it in a ton of games, I respectfully disagree. It's just so easy for a lot of armies to basically 1-shot. I wouldn't consider it until we hit maybe 70. At that point you could make the argument that it's too cheap for it's abilities, but the problem is, GW fethed up here with the model. It's too difficult to hide, and WAY too squishy, so even though it's got decent abilities and a decent strat, it's pretty much a 1-turn auto-kill for most opponents.

You're always better off with the equivalent amount of points of any W1 model in the army.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, as I'm playing Necrons atm, the changes are minor for me as I don't play C'tans.
Reanimator is a great model but not so great game-wise.


I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


I'm giving one a go this weekend hopefully. I don't see myself ever taking more than one though.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

I also really like the while we stand, we fight change. Up till now it was either a trap or had to be exploited to score any points.
Forcing your opponent to go through a unit of 10 blightlords or 20 plague marines seems pretty awesome though. It might even be worth trying for orks with units of MANz or something like flash gits sitting in a transport.

I don't think there is a big advantage in using it with buggy squadrons though, as buggies are paper thin, killing nine over the course of a game should be trivial. Squadrons of MBH or LRBT though...


There are a couple issues with WWSWF.

First, do units that split after deployment (buggies) count as a unit before or after the split?
Second, units that can be willfully split seem like something that can be heavily exploited by Custodes especially.


You select units for WWSWF before the battle begins, which happens after deployment (step 14) as best as I can tell?
And for your second question I believe so, and that would be funny but it's spending 700 points and some CP to protect 5VP.

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Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 p5freak wrote:
Not true. From the MFM2021
Well that's interesting. A little odd as there is no way to tell the difference between and editing mistake and free wargear but interesting none the less.

Congratulations to sisters players for their free simulacrums in every squad. What else has become free by virtue of absence ?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tycho wrote:
The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.


Also it still stacks w/assassinate. Unless I missed something. I recently got a user's name wrong so it's possible. Please tell me I missed something here ...


I read the FAQ and the very first thing I did was email the faq address to tell them the real problem with Abh the Witch is that it's not in Purge the Enemy where it clearly belongs. I'd bet they're going to get a lot of feedback to that effect before the end of the day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Seems to me like GW are actually basing points for units and weapons on the individual codex.

If GW believe cultists are stronger in CSM armies than they are in DG (I'd probably agree) then they should be different points.

The DG helbrute is 5pts more than the CSM one. I imagine that is taking into account the contagions etc it will be benefiting from.

A lot of people complained when Tacs weren't cheaper than CSM despite access to doctrines etc...
This guy gets it!

Then please explain why Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, Sicarans, Leviathans, Fellblades, Fire Raptors, etc, etc, etc still cost exactly the same for loyalists and CSM?

Because a Chaos Lord can still grant rerolls to every vehicle in range and loyalists commanders can't?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 18:34:45


   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I both love and hate the Custodes Changes. For one solid quarter, I wish my meta would remain basically the same. This basically kills the vehicle lists and brings back the ever hated "All bikes list" or the "All shields list" which was boring as hell.
   
 
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