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Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with HBMC, regardless of Agatha's personal manipulations, Wanda was ultimately the one who was in the wrong here. It's not like Tony with Ultron where he was trying to create something to protect the world and it went off the rails once it went sentient, something that neither Banner nor Tony expected or actively worked towards. Tony also didn't double down on keeping Ultron around or creating another version of him. Wanda on the other hand proactively maintained the Hex on Westview even after it was clear she was forcing the residents to live out her perverse fantasy life. Grief is no justification for harming or subjugating other people.
Tony DID double down and try to build a second one. The whole argument/fight in the room where Thor comes in and wakes up the Vision is a scene where Tony is trying to double down. Tony is the biggest villain in the MCU. He not only creates all his own villains he creates a bunch for everyone else because he is selfish and thoughtless as to the consequences of his own actions. And then when civil war rolls around he goes, "Hey guys, WE need to be put in check. WE need to accept limitations." No Tony, YOU do.
Villains who exist either because Tony was willfully ignorant or because he was thoughtless.
Obidiah Stane - Didn't want to pay attention to what his company was doing. Whiplash - Didn't want to pay attention to what his dad/company had done. AIM (the whole organization) - Didn't go on that rooftop date with Killian that one time. Ultron - Ignored all the arguments why he shouldn't. Got lucky with Ultron 2.0 aka The Vision Vulture - feth the little guys. Vultures speach about Tony is 100% correct. Tinkerer - See vulture Mysterio - Called his lifes work BARF. Zemo - See Ultron and consequences.
Villains that will probably be Tony's fault in Armor Wars Crimson Dynamo Titanium Man Whiplash 2.0
Tony is definitely not a perfect person and one who makes a lot of mistakes, but he's definitely not guilty of a lot of the things you're saying he's guilty of.
Gotta disagree with Vision, for one Ultron built him, not Tony. Furthermore, how is Vision in any way similar to what Stark initially intended with Ultron? Vision wasn't a worldwide defense system that he was envisioning in preparation for another potential alien invasion. He's basically saving what was left of Jarvis and using it as a tool rather than wasting a valuable asset that is, don't forget, made of vibranium, so it's not something you just dispose of that easily. Better to use it than leave it to be taken or hijacked by others.
What I am saying is that halfway through the movie they capture the cradle and they are going to destroy it. Then Tony goes "Wait a sec... what if we DON'T destroy it and activate it instead? I won't even erase the ultron bit. Il just include this other bit and hope for the best!" He has a small argument with Banner then Banner caves because Tony ultimately bullies him at every turn, and then Cap shows up to go WTF are you doing? Are you crazy?
He messed with an AI and got ultron. And then he messed with a vibranium ultron and got lucky. He ABSOLUTELY doubled down when he decided to do that.
To be fair for Whiplash, this was something that was more of a beef between Vanko's father and Stark's dad that was passed down to Ivan himself. Stark basically didn't even know the guy and the first thing Ivan does is try to kill him....soooooo I mean how would he know about this in any detail if his dad never bothered to share it with him? Not to mention Vanko's dad was the one who sold out military secrets which was why Stark's dad got him deported to begin with.
It's the thoughtlessness and willing ignorance. Vankos name is on the blue prints for the ark reactor. He just never bothered to look at it. Or consider that anyone in his company is responsbile for any innovation other than himself.
Obidiah Stane makes sense mainly because he was more or less a villain the whole time and Tony was in cahoots with the arms development up until he finally had a change of heart in the movie, so I mean, I don't exactly know how he wouldn't have remained a villain, even if Tony did fire him after he came back from being kidnapped?
It's not that he wasn't a villain. It's that Tony was willfully ignorant. Not looking into it and unaware. He actively looked the other way his entire adult life until the one moment where he decided to clean up his own mess.
He lied to Killian, which is an donkey-cave move, but frankly that speaks more towards Killian's instability as a person moreso than Stark. I mean if you get snubbed once, even if it's by your idol, I don't think that justifies someone creating a terrorist organization to push your bio-tech advancement and to try and control the US government. That's like saying that it's Jodie's Fosters fault that her stalker shot Ronald Reagan for not dealing with or giving into his delusions.
Tony stark blew off a nerd because hes a nerd to go get laid. And in doing so was a jerk that made a villain. Again, it's his ignorance as to the consequences of his actions. He just doesn't care until it comes back to bite him in his own ass.
The one regarding the Vulture and the Tinkerer is kinda dumb since he's not the one who directly screwed Toomes over, arguably it's the people that he teams up with Damage Control are the ones who handled the situation poorly. Toomes never bothered actually reaching out to complain to Tony to begin with, Stark cleaning up dangerous alien tech seems more responsible overall IMO. Toomes also proves his point that regular people shouldn't have access to alien tech since it gets weaponized by them anyways.
He is though. He DIRECTLY took their jobs from them by creating a new company that gets paid for cleaning up the messes he makes. Damage Control is Tony profiting off the collateral damage caused by himself and anyone else who decides to have a laser fight in the middle of the USA.
Mysterio - Shows you didn't actually pay attention during the movie, if you compare the therapy scene during Civil War to the one from Beck's recollection in Spider Man: Far From Home, you can see Beck's take is far more exaggerated and how the audience laughing at him doesn't actually occur in the Civil War version, the audience is completely silent. Again, another sign of instability that Stark was actually right to call out and fire him over. If he had kept him, he could have become another Obidiah Stane.
People don't generally start off unstable. They become unstable. Your argument in a lot of these is that these people were destined to fall off the edge regardless of Tony's actions. But the fact is Tony was the one who pushed them. Often in his own ignorance. Or arrogance. Or carelessness. Let me remind you that Tony built a satellite (and likely multiple of them because Tony would want to be able to deploy anywhere in the world) filled to the brim with weaponized drones that could be deployed on earth at the drop of a hat and then gave control of it to a highschool ... Junior? 16 year old? He put him in a suit with a instant kill mode. A kid.
Tony Stark is a monster.
Also, Tony makes the argument that he doesn't make weapons any more. And yeah, the repulser is a flight stabilizer that he points at people. But the little rockets he fires out of his shoulders. The missile in the wrist that blows up a tank. The omni beam from his chest. The red crystal laser from his wrist. The nano tech amplifiers that condense lasers into a super laser, and the sword he makes from nano bots would all argue that he absolutely still makes weapons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/07 08:42:45
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
On the creation of Ultron, do remember that Wanda had screwed with Tony’s mind.
Tony’s saving grace? He never, ever shys away from the problems he creates, regardless of how they came to be.
Moreover, it’s all true to his character. Consider End Game compared to Avengers Assemble, when everyone is will waving on the helicarrier.
Cap (probably correctly at that point) accuses Tony of being morally weak, not being the type to make the sacrifice play, such as lying on the barbed wire (maybe razor wire?) to let squad mates cross in safety. Tony’s response? I’d just cut the wire.
Over the movies, we see Tony continually confronted with his screw ups. Whether it’s weapons he designed being sold to The Bad Guys, Ultron, Sokovia, The Iron Legion etc. We then see him, universally, tackle those problems.
Remember, Tony is what, early 40’s by the time he becomes Iron Man. All his life he’d known frankly outrageous wealth, and weapons design. He was insulated from the consequences of his actions. He directly addresses this in Iron Man.
I never got to say goodbye to my father. There's questions I would've asked him. I would've asked him how he felt about what his company did, if he was conflicted, if he ever had doubts. Or maybe he was every inch of man we remember from the newsreels. I saw young Americans killed by the very weapons I created to defend them and protect them. And I saw that I had become part of a system that is comfortable with zero-accountability.
That line of thought becomes the Iron Legion, and then Ultron. That was his way of protecting as many people as possible.
And we know he point blank refuses to share Iron Man technology with the military in Iron Man 2.
His clean up crew? It wasn’t about further profits for Stark Industry, despite what Toomes might feel. It was about ensuring alien technology doesn’t fall into the wrong hands.
Whiplash? As explained in a previous post, he’s nothing to do with Tony Stark. He’d never met him until the race scene. He never really sits down for a 1-2-1 with the guy. Whiplash, and everything he does post-arrest is solely on Justin Hammer and his sad penis envy.
Mysterio getting butthurt his invention was referred to as BARF? Had.....had he never actually met his boss? Like....ever? Tony is Mr Irreverent. That’d be like someone who knows me getting all murderous rampage because I used the word ‘bunghole’. A word I genuinely use all the time, because I find it amusing.
Sorry, waffling.
We then see Tony become ever more genuinely heroic, to the point he makes the sacrifice play Cap (again, probably correctly at the time he said it) said he was incapable of. And that journey starts in Iron Man, when he recognises he’s had zero accountability.
If only there was some public figure born into wealth, that’s never ever met the consequences of their actions we could contrast and compare with. But I’m afraid I’m drawing a blank. Bigly. Gosh. Crikey.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I am not saying Tony doesn't have a ark and isn't learning lessons the entire time. Or that he doesn't tackle his messes when presented with them. I agree. He absolutely does.
But other people pay for his messes first. And that relates to this WandaVision discussion.
Tony tackles his problems when confronted with them. but they are for the vast majority the consequences of decisions HE makes and OTHER people pay the price for those choices before Tony ever steps in.
Wanda didn't choose to enslave people. She didn't know what she was doing was magic. She didn't know about a mind control spell or how it could be applied to individuals lets alone a whole town. When the town is acting the way they do it's "magic on autopilot". Because the spell more or less cast itself. Yes. She is ultimately responsible because it is her power. And she DID try to clean it up when she started to understand the nature of what was happening. But unlike Tony she didn't CHOOSE to cast that spell. She didn't even know it was a spell she cast. Tony DID choose to build his weapons. He chose to ignore where the money was coming from. He chose to ignore the potential consequences of Ultron and then doubled down and just happened to win when he made Vision. He's reckless to the extreme. And if only he suffered the consequences it would be less of a problem. But I would argue thousands. Tens of thousands. Maybe even millions have suffered the consequences of Tony Starks blind arrogance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/07 09:07:49
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
When it’s a question of who is more dangerous between Tony and Wanda, I’d say it’s six of one, half dozen of the other.
Tony screws up through his over confidence. Technology is his life (literally from Iron Man to Iron Man 3). So Technology is his solution to everything. He genuinely knows no other way. And specifically, weapons technology.
Wanda? She’s walking mental trauma. Since she was a girl, trauma is all she’s known. From the moment her parents were killed, she’s been varying degrees of off the reservation.
The fact her actions in WandaVision were primarily not consciously taken makes her a significant threat. Her power level is clearly off the chart - and she’s only now beginning to learn to control it.
Spoiler:
And the end credits scene at least hints she’s going about that completely the wrong way, diving into a book of apparently unfathomable power.
Sure, she consciously controlled her powers, and brought that episode of trauma to an end. But that is not the same as her being in control of her powers and abilities.
Consider someone who causes fires just by their mere presence. They’re not a conscious pyro, so there’s no malicious intent. They can put those fires out all they want - and that is the right thing to do. But until you learn to not causes those fires, you remain a danger to yourself and others around you.
.
On reflection, I’d say Tony and Wanda actually mirror each other. Both just want to help. Neither is malicious in approach nor intent. But they both need to learn to temper themselves, and learn moderation.
In terms of overall threat? It’s Wanda, every time. If we look at End Game, she’s the only one that even comes close to singled handedly killing Thanos. He only survives because he was able to order his ship to ‘rain fire’. Hell, Captain Marvel fought him to a stand still (I love when he nuts her, and it just has no effect whatsoever. But Wanda very, very nearly kills him. I’d even say it’s arguable that had she been less grief stricken, and taking her time, Thanos would’ve been toast.
If she can do that consciously, then create West View unconsciously? We don’t know the extent of her power.
Spoiler:
And again, she might be about to gain ever more
We also don’t know a huge amount about the nature of Magic in the MCU.
What we know.
1. Prior to specific tuition and access to the right books, Dr Strange had no ability whatsoever.
2. Wanda has shown natural talent, before exposure to the staff.
3. Wanda gained something from the staff. Whether it was awakened abilities she already had, or added to them, isn’t massively clear.
4. Is there an upper limit to magical ability? Well, it’s not at all clear. And if there is, is it linked to natural potential, or access to learning?
Tony at least was limited by physics (even if pure narrativium can ignore bits and bobs here and there). Wanda? Well, seemingly not so much.
Final spoiler?
Spoiler:
That end credits scene....very, very reminiscent of The Incredible Hulk. Out in the wilderness, in a cabin, learning to control their abilities. That I do not believe to be mere coincidence
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
What do people think of the trailers/clips released for "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" so far, given that starts being released in a couple of weeks? Nice to see Agent 13 in there.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Looks great. I am excited for a more active Zemo and to see the MCU version of Flag Smasher. I heard Batroc might make a return also? And U.S. Agent is a great character. Looking forward to that. All around excited for everything Marvel these days.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
The TV show format is definitely refreshing following Infinity War and End Game.
Without necessarily criticising, the movies leading up to it predominantly developed the main cast - Cap, Tony, Thor, Banner etc. The supporting cast - Romanov, Hawkeye, Wanda etc did get some, but no specific origins.
The TV shows are certainly giving them their dues, doing the lifting work in a way movies simply can’t do, and with that comes the opportunity (so far seized upon) to tell more in depth stories.
I had feared they’d just be serialised movies, but WandaVision put paid to that concern. Will the others follow suit of course remains to be seen.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Grimskul wrote: Wanda on the other hand proactively maintained the Hex on Westview even after it was clear she was forcing the residents to live out her perverse fantasy life. Grief is no justification for harming or subjugating other people.
Right...she seems fully aware of what's going on when she ejects Monica from the hex. She just doesn't care. She'd rather hurt people to live out her Sims fantasy with her fake family. Apparently, Wanda will never know what the town sacrificed for HER. How would the other Avengers feel about this?
Again...I thought the show was actually building toward a legit heel turn for the character. And I thought it was clever and effective right up until the closing episodes. But it's like the studio got right to the edge and then freaked, scared of Wanda becoming the next Daenerys backlash as the article that HBMC linked to stated. It's possible (probable?) that they're 'saving it' for the DS sequel. But that makes me question how meaningful these new Marvel shows will ultimately be.
I really think people are taking the 'they'll never know what you sacrificed' out of context. I don't think Monica was trying to say others can't know Wanda's grief, I think that line is an acknowledgement that deliberately ending the fantasy of Westview was something incredibly difficult that a lot of people, maybe even most people, would not have chosen to do if they were in her shoes. If I lost my significant other but I could still be with her using Wanda's brand of make believe, it would take an unbelievable amount of will to stop living that fantasy. I think that's what Monica was trying to say, and it didn't even occur to me to take that line any other way until I walked into this thread.
Dysartes wrote: What do people think of the trailers/clips released for "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" so far, given that starts being released in a couple of weeks? Nice to see Agent 13 in there.
It's the MCU series that I was looking forward to the most from the moment they announced it.
That has since changed - bring on Armor Wars!!! - but I'm still jazzed to see it as it'll be another post-Blip look at the MCU, only on a larger scale than what Wandavision and Far From Home gave us.
gorgon wrote: It's possible (probable?) that they're 'saving it' for the DS sequel.
The cynic in me says that any heel-turn Wanda goes through will be reversed by act 3 in that film as her and Dr. Strange team up to fight whatever the actual threat is. And we'll get another DBZ fight.
gorgon wrote: But that makes me question how meaningful these new Marvel shows will ultimately be.
More than Agents of SHIELD. That's for damned sure.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I really think people are taking the 'they'll never know what you sacrificed' out of context. I don't think Monica was trying to say others can't know Wanda's grief, I think that line is an acknowledgement that deliberately ending the fantasy of Westview was something incredibly difficult that a lot of people, maybe even most people, would not have chosen to do if they were in her shoes.
And what a lot of us are saying is that we don't think that matters. What Wanda did, even if it started as accidental, was horrific. And even when she knew what she was doing she continued to do it anyway. She sacrificed her fake family and imaginary Vision at the end, sure, and was forced to move into the 'acceptance' stage of grief, but the town owes here nothing. Monica ludicrous statement is an attempt to make Wanda a good guy again in the eyes of audience; the MCU's very safe attempt at a "Naw, she's alright! She's all better now! Yay superheroes!".
You can't enslave an entire town's worth of people, willingly perpetuate a fantasy land where they have no control and literally live out your nightmares when you sleep, and then go "But I freed them, so I'm clearly the one who's losing out here!".
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/03/07 21:55:12
You can't enslave an entire town's worth of people, willingly perpetuate a fantasy land where they have no control and literally live out your nightmares when you sleep, and then go "But I freed them, so I'm clearly the one who's losing out here!".
That's the thing though. Up until Agatha cuts their strings, Wanda legitimately believes everyone is happy in fantasy land. She's not aware of the nightmares and arguably, she's not aware they're not living the same kind of idyllic perfect sitcom world she is. We've seen their strings cut via Vision before, but she hasn't and is pretty shocked when first confronted by it, pretty much immediately setting them free.
Ultimately she's not a hero in the eyes of the town and will never be, even if Monica understands. That's... fine? She gives up her happy ending upon learning what its costing others and at that point its the best that can be done. There's literally nothing anyone can or even knows how to do by the end of the series other than walk away and move on.
That said, on teasers:
Spoiler:
Seems pretty likely they're pushing Young Avengers at this point. We've got Stinger, Kate, Wiccan, and Speed already. All the Skrullery seems like it could easily drop in Hulkling with Falcon and Winter Soldier likely to give us either Patriot or MIss America.
It'll be interesting to see how much Cap M and Dr S rely on WV setup. Thus far connections have been very, very mild and I don't really see that changing. Certainly Photon is an easy drop, given last we saw Monica pre-WV was as a little girl. She has powers now? Great? They don't need to explain the specifics when they re-reintroduce her into that franchise.
MoM is a little more curious. They could be adapting Triumph and Torment here, with Wanda stepping in for Doom. I really don't think they're aiming to make her a villain for a... lot... of reasons, but in any case, I think its important to think of it as a story framed from Strange's perspective. I assume it will somehow be written so that you don't need to have seen WV like the rest of the MCU, but the kids teaser makes that tough. Of course, we're probably getting another teaser at the end of Spidey 3, so it's possible this is actually more of a tease for that film.
Like, lets say Spidey 3 happens, there's some multiverse nonsense throughout the film but its not really explained. Post credit stinger, is Strange "fixing" it and realizing that Wanda's magic is the source of the problem. Strange 2 starts with Strange confronting Wanda who is trying to bring her family back. Technically fits but also doesn't require any information since Endgame, which is how the franchise has generally worked so far.
LunarSol wrote: That's the thing though. Up until Agatha cuts their strings, Wanda legitimately believes everyone is happy in fantasy land. She's not aware of the nightmares and arguably, she's not aware they're not living the same kind of idyllic perfect sitcom world she is. We've seen their strings cut via Vision before, but she hasn't and is pretty shocked when first confronted by it, pretty much immediately setting them free.
But she's still enslaving them. She's still robbing them of their free will. She's still changing things whenever she doesn't like it (see the way she just ejected Monica).
LunarSol wrote: Ultimately she's not a hero in the eyes of the town and will never be, even if Monica understands. That's... fine? She gives up her happy ending upon learning what its costing others and at that point its the best that can be done. There's literally nothing anyone can or even knows how to do by the end of the series other than walk away and move on.
But the idea that she was the one giving everything up, and that absolves her of what she did, is absolute bull gak.
Seems pretty likely they're pushing Young Avengers at this point. We've got Stinger, Kate, Wiccan, and Speed already. All the Skrullery seems like it could easily drop in Hulkling with Falcon and Winter Soldier likely to give us either Patriot or MIss America.
Speaking of those latter two, the former has been said to be in Falcon/Winter Soldier, and the latter has been cast for Doctor Strange 2 (quite appropriate, given the subject matter of that film).
I guess. I'm only familiar with America from the animated 'Secret Warriors' series Disney did recently, and there they just made her from another planet that the Kree also made 'Inhumans' on, and things went... badly, and her moms teleported her to Earth. I vaguely know her comic backstory is different, but whatever. It seems odd to run the same characters almost in parallel, but diverge in origin stories
Strange 2 is turning into far more of ensemble movie than I expected. I hope it doesn't get lost in all the backstories.
----
Also, randomly. Are the 'Legends' shorts on D+ worth watching? The description is vague about what they are, but they've got one on Wanda, one on Vision and now there's one each for Falcon and Winter Soldier. They obviously tie into the series, but I can't tell if they're clip shows of their movie roles, or there's actually content in the 7-8 minute bits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 05:44:37
Marvel made them because we went a year without any MCU releases, so they wanted to catch people up.
They're not required viewing by any means unless you need to remind yourself of anything.
As for Chavez, her comic origin is that she's from another universe. I assume that Secret Warriors making her related to Inhumans was part of Marvel's insane desire to make the Inhumans the next X-Men. Thank goodness that Feige got control of everything, otherwise that crap'd still be going on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 06:24:36
She sacrificed her fake family and imaginary Vision at the end, sure, and was forced to move into the 'acceptance' stage of grief, but the town owes here nothing.
No one said the town owes her anything. That's never a thing anyone says. Monica says they'll never know what she gave up, and she's right. None of them will ever be in a position where they can make believe their lost loved ones back to life and then make the decision to end it for the sake of the total strangers that got caught up in it. No one but Wanda will know what that's like because no one but her could have actually done that.
She sacrificed her fake family and imaginary Vision at the end, sure, and was forced to move into the 'acceptance' stage of grief, but the town owes here nothing.
No one said the town owes her anything. That's never a thing anyone says. Monica says they'll never know what she gave up, and she's right. None of them will ever be in a position where they can make believe their lost loved ones back to life and then make the decision to end it for the sake of the total strangers that got caught up in it. No one but Wanda will know what that's like because no one but her could have actually done that.
Sorry...I strongly feel that line is an offnote, weak attempt to reposition Wanda as some kind of heroic victim. I guess one can say that she's a victim of having a loved one taken away from her. But the overwhelming majority of human beings in that situation don't commit crimes against others because of it. Imagine a real-life version of what we saw -- a grieving woman kidnaps people and forces them to act our her fantasy of an imaginary family/town. How would we feel about that? With whom would the vast majority of our sympathy be placed?
I've heard people say 'what could they have done?' How about confront her? Tell her that maybe they can't stop her, but that what she did was wrong and that she deserves to be locked up -- in prison or a mental health facility. Monica should be the moral authority figure -- the Captain America -- at that moment, and what we've seen of her suggests she probably IS that type of person. Instead she sympathizes with Wanda...there's no suggestion that she's even concerned with what happened to the town.
Thing is, this is *just after* the townspeople confronted Wanda about the trauma she's given them. She did to an entire town what was done to her. Which leads back to my whiplash comment. Which is it? What's the show trying to say here? IMO, it's at least plausible that changes were made on worries of a backlash, and to be fair that probably WOULD have happened just because of how society and social media is.
She sacrificed her fake family and imaginary Vision at the end, sure, and was forced to move into the 'acceptance' stage of grief, but the town owes here nothing.
No one said the town owes her anything. That's never a thing anyone says. Monica says they'll never know what she gave up, and she's right. None of them will ever be in a position where they can make believe their lost loved ones back to life and then make the decision to end it for the sake of the total strangers that got caught up in it. No one but Wanda will know what that's like because no one but her could have actually done that.
That's just.... Kind of weird. The 'POV character is completely unrelatable and no one can ever understand' is not generally a direction you want to go. Especially for a story about grief and dealing with it, you want the catharsis of understanding and acceptance of why healthy grief is a social process.
Unless, you're intentionally setting up a character for being a villainous monster that's utterly alienated and lashing out because of it. But it doesn't seem to be going that way either.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people are really kinda being overly harsh on a comic book movie and real world implications of it.
Eh. There are good ways to tell stories and set up a meaningful message. 'No one will ever understand your loss, and it doesn't matter if you grieve in an unhealthy way that hurts other people' isn't a good story or a good message.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 18:06:25
People do commit crimes from grief and they also enter pleas of temporary insanity.
Wanda absolutely committed crimes. Wanda was also not in control of her powers doing crazy things in her grief stricken insanity.
Shes not blameless, but shes also not malicious. She isn't Ultron trying to wipe out humanity. She isn't Thanos trying to wipe out half of all life so the other half can have more food. She isn't Yellowjacket trying to get back at his old mentor because he feels slighted.
Wanda's victims are all unintended collateral of something she wasn't in control over. Calling her a villain is just as disingenuous as anyone calling her a hero for shutting it all down.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What Wanda did was horrific and wrong. But, it wasn’t conscious. She didn’t plan to do it, or even mean to do it.
We've acknowledged that. But even once she found out that she had enslaved the town, she kept it going. That's the problem with Monica's line at the end. It attempts to absolve her of her actions by making it out like she was the one hard done by.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 22:00:22
There's no attempt at absolution. In fact I strongly suspect that not only is there a reckoning coming, that it will be a fundamental part of the immediate upcoming story.
Saying "I understand what you did, and I'm not sure I'd have done differently" is not a synonym for "what you did was ok" which is what you seem to feel it was.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Is it? At the very least, it's no less weird than equating Monica's line with 'omg you're the victim here.' That's not what she says. Period.
Azreal13 wrote: There's no attempt at absolution. In fact I strongly suspect that not only is there a reckoning coming, that it will be a fundamental part of the immediate upcoming story.
Saying "I understand what you did, and I'm not sure I'd have done differently" is not a synonym for "what you did was ok" which is what you seem to feel it was.
Thank you!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 22:53:00
I didn't know about America Chavez being confirmed for the MCU this phase. I really hope they keep the best part of her character intact. That she punches literal holes in reality to travel between universes and basically functions as a one woman multiverse cop at this point.
Is it? At the very least, it's no less weird than equating Monica's line with 'omg you're the victim here.' That's not what she says. Period.
Yep. Whoever is (theoretically) claiming that in this thread has no bearing on the flat statement you made that Monica is suggesting 'no one can understand what she went through' when the whole thing is a metaphor for grief. Its entirely relatable to everyone. That's... actually the point of having a story about grief. To turn it around and say no one can is _very_ bizarre.
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balmong7 wrote:I didn't know about America Chavez being confirmed for the MCU this phase. I really hope they keep the best part of her character intact. That she punches literal holes in reality to travel between universes and basically functions as a one woman multiverse cop at this point.
The actress (Xochitl Gomez) looks fairly young, so she may not be a big part (or even have her powers) in the film. But I'm not really the best at estimating kid's ages.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 23:48:07
Yep. Whoever is (theoretically) claiming that in this thread has no bearing on the flat statement you made that Monica is suggesting 'no one can understand what she went through' when the whole thing is a metaphor for grief. Its entirely relatable to everyone. That's... actually the point of having a story about grief. To turn it around and say no one can is _very_ bizarre.
Theoretically claiming it? Have you been reading this thread?
I don't even know how to respond to the rest of your post because I don't disagree with any of it. Yes, grief s relatable. Yes, most of the show is a metaphor for grief. So what? Why does that make it preposterous to suggest no other character in-universe could understand what it's like to end the illusion? It's true, because no one else but Wanda could have ever been in that position, because no one else can do what Wanda can do. It doesn't make her any less relatable. Monica's line is just acknowledging how difficult it must have been to end the fantasy and come back to the real world.
I don't understand why that's so controversial, but here we are.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/09 01:03:48
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
