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Again, you take her powers acting on their own agency as her agency.

Sure, why not?
If you really _want_ to go this route, then fine.
Car accidents, gun accidents. We hold the user/operator responsible, not the tool. Diminished capacity (drunk driving, anyone?) is often grounds for more severe punishments, not less.

She walked into this town, created a fantasy world and enslaved and victimized 3000+ people. I don't give any craps about the vague possibility that she wasn't fully in control.

I have no reason at all to let her off the hook for any of the things she's done here, especially when I can see clear divisions between 'maybe, possibly she wasn't in full control' and other times when she _absolutely was_ in full control.

while crying about how much pain she caused,

Well, yes. _She caused_ Crying about it doesn't make it ok.

Voss wrote:

Again, you take her powers acting on their own agency as her agency.

Sure, why not?
If you really _want_ to go this route, then fine.
Car accidents, gun accidents. We hold the user/operator responsible, not the tool. Diminished capacity (drunk driving, anyone?) is often grounds for more severe punishments, not less.

I do want to go down this route. Your analogies don't sync up.

Wanda didn't get drunk then climb into a car. Tony DID get drunk and then climb into an iron man suit though. Gun accidents tend to not be perpetrated by people who have never seen a gun before.

Wanda LITERALLY didn't know what she was doing was magic for years. She didn't know it COULD mind control a town. She didn't know it could rewrite reality. She didn't know it could force people into complex narratives. Mostly... It actually can't. Agatha says as much. "Magic on Autopilot. How are you doing this!?"

I never said she was free of blame. I am saying it's not her consciously doing it. You attribute to Wanda that she has 3000+ people under mind control and torture by choice. But she never made a choice to do that and was unaware that it was happening. The entire nature of the situation was something she didn't even know was in the realm of possibility.

If all of a sudden my body was capable of causing point blank nuclear explosions and then a bunch of people die I am certainly at fault. But I didn't CHOOSE to do it. And that matters as to whether she is the "villain" you are painting her as. Anything at all that has to do with the Hex itself... not in her control and not consciously being done by her. It's many, many overlapping spells running themselves. Removing somebody from the hex? Thats a conscious choice that she makes and she makes it protecting the person all the way out. Not a single broken bone or bruise on her despite going through several walls. Shutting it down? That was her conscious choice.

She never picked up the gun or got in the car. She went to the plot of land the Vision bought for them both, and in her grief and loneliness her powers did their own thing.

She walked into this town, created a fantasy world and enslaved and victimized 3000+ people. I don't give any craps about the vague possibility that she wasn't fully in control.

I have no reason at all to let her off the hook for any of the things she's done here, especially when I can see clear divisions between 'maybe, possibly she wasn't in full control' and other times when she _absolutely was_ in full control.

while crying about how much pain she caused,

Well, yes. _She caused_ Crying about it doesn't make it ok.

It's not a vague possibility. It's what actually happened in the show. And again, it doesn't make her blameless. But it definitely doesn't make her someone who chose to hurt anyone, or even put them in danger. or even risk of danger. She didn't draw a weapon or climb into the seat of dangerous machinery. Her powers did things she didnt know they could do.

 Lance845 wrote:
THEN Wanda walks out of the Hex and tells them off. She doesn't shoot or attack anyone. She tells them to leave her alone. She threatens sure. But hey, from HER point of view they just drove a drone up to her door, told her she/they want to help and then shot a missile at her entire family. It's amazing she didn't do more.

So...you agree that she had full agency then. She leaves the fantasy of the hex, clearly demonstrates understanding of the real world outside, makes decisions about her actions, etc. She's 100% lucid and in control during that sequence. Saying "it's just her powers talking" makes NO sense. NONE.

Makes about as much sense as theorising that Haywood engineered Wanda's breakdown...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Makes about as much sense as theorising that Haywood engineered Wanda's breakdown...

I was thinking about Hayward earlier actually. Yes, he's a jackass, but I think Point Of View bias is hitting people really hard with this show.

Had the show been the Hayward Chronicles, about the Director of SWORD trying to restore an Avenger to life and running into a minor villain (or even Agatha) mind-controlling a town and trying to stop them while getting Vision rebooted. Well, I think the reactions would be singing an entirely different song.

It reminds me a _lot_ of the Usual Suspects and Keyser Soze. Because its Wanda's story with help from Monica (and Darcy and Wu- past movie sidekicks can't be wrong); of course Wanda's actions are mostly positive, and Hayward is the evilist of evil villains and needs to be punished for... um. Trying to stop town-wide mind control that leaves people screaming whenever its broken briefly? Doing his actual job as the director of the re-imagined SWORD? One of those, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

She never picked up the gun or got in the car.

Well, no. She never needed either to do harm, that's the thing with superhero stories. The kind of harm she does is much, much worse. She can enslave and victimize people, torture them for what... a week? two weeks? without pause, to the point that even their dreams are nightmares. Even under her control, they're screaming for her to stop constantly, protesting, fighting clawing at insides of their own minds trying to escape, trying to connect to their loved ones and literally tearing at the walls trying to get out but can't.

What she does to these people is nightmarish beyond belief. And no one is presented as giving even the slightest crap about them. Just that's its over, and she has to do a walk of shame in front of some (very deserved) angry glares- far less than what she deserves for what she's done. She was sympathetic when she was imprisoned at the end of Civil War; she's very much not sympathetic at the end of this (and goes a long way towards proving why people wanted those Accords).

But no, letting go of her fake family, that's a true sacrifice. Nevermind that she could totally just recreate them with a new Hex on her little cabin in Norway or where-ever. [Or just pick up actually real ones from another reality...]

 gorgon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
THEN Wanda walks out of the Hex and tells them off. She doesn't shoot or attack anyone. She tells them to leave her alone. She threatens sure. But hey, from HER point of view they just drove a drone up to her door, told her she/they want to help and then shot a missile at her entire family. It's amazing she didn't do more.

So...you agree that she had full agency then. She leaves the fantasy of the hex, clearly demonstrates understanding of the real world outside, makes decisions about her actions, etc. She's 100% lucid and in control during that sequence. Saying "it's just her powers talking" makes NO sense. NONE.

I don't understand why it's hard to understand or where the disconnect is.

She did not consciously create the hex. She is not consciously controlling any element of the hex. The Hex itself is a spell on autopilot that was cast from the distress of her breakdown and grief. Everything to do with the hex itself... thats not her making decisions. Everything else... thats her make decisions. Are people being mind controlled in the hex? Yes. Is SHE mind controlling them actively? Is she aware that she is mind controlling them? No. Thats the Hex.

People surround her and keep shouting stuff. She has a little break down, they all get choked. Did she consciously cast that spell? No. And you can see it. When she sees what is happening she immediately tries to stop it. She never actively chooses to hurt anyone except Fietro and Agnes. The rest she is actually not in control of.


Remember Raven from Teen Titans? It's a lot like that. Except she hasn't been trained since birth to control her emotions.

She is not consciously controlling any element of the hex.

From the very first episode we see her editing out things she doesn't like.

That's a conscious decision.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

She is not consciously controlling any element of the hex.

From the very first episode we see her editing out things she doesn't like.

That's a conscious decision.

Exactly.

I don't understand why people keep handwaving these blatantly self-aware actions that show that Wanda is in far more control of her fantasy reality than people claim her to be. She isn't some damsel in distress that needs someone to break her out of her trance, she is actively perpetuating the Hex on Westview.

You don't need a character to literally spell out that they are know what's going on for the audience to know that they have agency.

I mean no one's debating that her creation of the Hex as an accident. It's not like she walked into that vacant plot of land and said "Time to make my own dreamland where everyone is happy as long as they do what I want! Mwahahaha!". It was pure grief and anguish that caused her to create the Hex. Not something she meant to do.

But after that? Different story. In the first few episodes she's changing things by choice whenever they intrude upon her fantasy. By the fourth episode, to the shock of many, she straight up leaves the Hex, tells everyone to feth off and leave her alone, and then walks back in to resume her purposeful control of a small town.

She may not have meant to start it, but she sure as hell is perpetuating it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean no one's debating that her creation of the Hex as an accident. It's not like she walked into that vacant plot of land and said "Time to make my own dreamland where everyone is happy as long as they do what I want! Mwahahaha!". It was pure grief and anguish that caused her to create the Hex. Not something she meant to do.

But after that? Different story. In the first few episodes she's changing things by choice whenever they intrude upon her fantasy. By the fourth episode, to the shock of many, she straight up leaves the Hex, tells everyone to feth off and leave her alone, and then walks back in to resume her purposeful control of a small town.

She may not have meant to start it, but she sure as hell is perpetuating it.

But what I am saying is that just like how she didn't understand the making of it, she also didn't understand the nature of it. When she saw everyone within it being happy, she thought they were happy. She didn't know it was locking away children. She didn't know it was stripping away peoples free will. She didn't look into it either, agreed. But saying she willfully kept everyone doing exactly what she wanted is entirely different. She didn't even know that was a thing she COULD do let alone something she was doing all show.

 Lance845 wrote:

But what I am saying is that just like how she didn't understand the making of it, she also didn't understand the nature of it. When she saw everyone within it being happy, she thought they were happy. She didn't know it was locking away children. She didn't know it was stripping away peoples free will. She didn't look into it either, agreed. But saying she willfully kept everyone doing exactly what she wanted is entirely different. She didn't even know that was a thing she COULD do let alone something she was doing all show.

Which is specifically why every time someone comments on a flaw in the world it breaks for a second.

Also worth mentioning that her "edits" I believe are almost entirely confined to rejecting outside influence or helping her own family. The major ones are removing Monica and the Beekeeper and lashing out against the drone strike. Beyond that the main one is the second child so Vision can also have the name he wants.

Not understanding how is not the same as not consciously doing it. I very much doubt she understand how she flies, throws energy blasts or manipulates people's minds, but I don't expect people to argue that she was somehow never doing any of that on purpose over the course of 4-5 movies.

Voss wrote:
Not understanding how is not the same as not consciously doing it. I very much doubt she understand how she flies, throws energy blasts or manipulates people's minds, but I don't expect people to argue that she was somehow never doing any of that on purpose over the course of 4-5 movies.

Exactly. That's the same as saying undereducated gangsters using guns in a turf war are not consciously committing acts of violence simply because they don't understand the mechanics or science of how a gun works besides pulling the trigger.

So guys, how much is this an argument for the sake of argument? 100%, 90%, 50%?

Asking for a friend....

 Easy E wrote:
So guys, how much is this an argument for the sake of argument? 100%, 90%, 50%?

You are aware that you can choose not to participate in a conversation that you are not interested in, right?

I think the conversation ended up in a cul de sac about 3 pages ago.

Or maybe it's a roundabout.

 Easy E wrote:
So guys, how much is this an argument for the sake of argument? 100%, 90%, 50%?

Asking for a friend....

69%

Ok then...

WandaVision Team Talks Lack of Justice for Westview: Making Everything OK Was 'Not the Story We're Telling'

“There’s so much conversation about taking Westview hostage in the finale as it is,” WandaVision director Matt Shakman notes. In that mid-episode scene, “We have Agatha really bringing it to Wanda, saying, ‘Are you a hero or are you a villain? Heroes don’t torture people.’ That’s a huge moment in the finale, when Wanda has to wrestle with that.”

Speaking to the scene following the Hex’s collapse, head writer Jac Schaeffer tells TVLine, “I think Wanda’s walk of shame back into the town is really powerful, and it was written as such on the page. It was meant to be like an assault of death glares from people, and we were meant to feel how angry they all are.

“I remember a note from [Marvel Studios chief] Kevin [Feige] being like, ‘More, more, let’s feel that for her, let’s understand that what she did was terrible,'” Schaeffer adds.

To those who wished a happier ending for Westview, “No, that’s not the story we’re telling, that now [Wanda] has to make everything OK,” Schaeffer says. “It wasn’t about landing her in a way where it’s like, ‘Everything’s wrapped up and squeaky clean, and she’s a hero and has done no wrong!’ She’s done a lot of wrong. And there will probably be reckonings down the line. No, I like how that’s in the gray area of misdeeds that she’s been involved in.”

As director of the Wanda/Monica scene at the end, Shakman says “there were many versions of that, for sure, but nothing that was much longer.” He then echoes Schaeffer’s reverence for the complicated moment, saying, “I think it’s a beautiful scene. We’re not trying to let Wanda off the hook at all. The daggers that she’s getting from every townsperson as she walks through town should clearly show that she’s not being forgiven, and she won’t be forgiven, by them. She understands that.”

This just makes Monica's line even worse.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ok then...

WandaVision Team Talks Lack of Justice for Westview: Making Everything OK Was 'Not the Story We're Telling'

“There’s so much conversation about taking Westview hostage in the finale as it is,” WandaVision director Matt Shakman notes. In that mid-episode scene, “We have Agatha really bringing it to Wanda, saying, ‘Are you a hero or are you a villain? Heroes don’t torture people.’ That’s a huge moment in the finale, when Wanda has to wrestle with that.”

Speaking to the scene following the Hex’s collapse, head writer Jac Schaeffer tells TVLine, “I think Wanda’s walk of shame back into the town is really powerful, and it was written as such on the page. It was meant to be like an assault of death glares from people, and we were meant to feel how angry they all are.

“I remember a note from [Marvel Studios chief] Kevin [Feige] being like, ‘More, more, let’s feel that for her, let’s understand that what she did was terrible,'” Schaeffer adds.

To those who wished a happier ending for Westview, “No, that’s not the story we’re telling, that now [Wanda] has to make everything OK,” Schaeffer says. “It wasn’t about landing her in a way where it’s like, ‘Everything’s wrapped up and squeaky clean, and she’s a hero and has done no wrong!’ She’s done a lot of wrong. And there will probably be reckonings down the line. No, I like how that’s in the gray area of misdeeds that she’s been involved in.”

As director of the Wanda/Monica scene at the end, Shakman says “there were many versions of that, for sure, but nothing that was much longer.” He then echoes Schaeffer’s reverence for the complicated moment, saying, “I think it’s a beautiful scene. We’re not trying to let Wanda off the hook at all. The daggers that she’s getting from every townsperson as she walks through town should clearly show that she’s not being forgiven, and she won’t be forgiven, by them. She understands that.”

This just makes Monica's line even worse.

Yeah, makes you wonder why they bothered including that line for her if they wanted to spin Wanda off that way.

Gosh, her victims won't forgive her?
I'm shocked and moved by this 'revelation.' But angry stares aren't... anything. They don't illustrate her guilt, they demonstrate how powerless her victims are, and that no one really cares. [Which... would have been some manner of social commentary if it had been intentional...] She doesn't stick around to try to deal with it in any constructive way, she just... leaves.

After, you know, warping someone's mind into a personal prison and making their town her personal prison. Gosh, she certainly learned something today!

Her 'walk of shame' came off as arrogance. The thing about a walk of shame is, traditionally, its shameful because you have to deal with the people around you afterwards. Your small town, campus or whatever knows who you are, what you did and where to find you. You'll have to see that look day after day. If they're strangers you'll never see again, it has zero weight.

In that mid-episode scene, “We have Agatha really bringing it to Wanda, saying, ‘Are you a hero or are you a villain? Heroes don’t torture people.’ That’s a huge moment in the finale, when Wanda has to wrestle with that.”

It... could be. For someone who isn't Wanda.
Someone who didn't voluntarily join a terrorist organization for a power up, mind-frelled the heroes, didn't save civilians in time and got most of the worldwide blame for their deaths, sparking an entire thing about controlling superheroes, have to kill her lover only for it to be pointless, etc.

I doubt Wanda has ever had a single moment as an adult where she considered herself a hero. Agatha's 'zinger' would have just puzzled her. A huge chunk of her character is simply guilt and loss; none of her self-image revolves around being a hero. For most of the time that passed after she joined the Avengers, she didn't even exist.

Whew lads... loved this series and I cant wait for more Wanda/Vison stories.

As to the debate about Wanda not being in control and should bear more 'punishment' for her deeds...

Ya'll, why are you treating Wanda different than just about any other superpower movie?

Its not hard to look for massed injuries and casualties in these movies. And yet, the critics are largely silent about the moral culpabilities of the heroes/protagonists to the damage they've caused.

The closest I can think of are the recent Superman movies, where one of the plot devices was Batman's reaction to the damage caused by the fight between Superman and Zod.

...am I off base here??

Ok how about somrthing interesting.
The Ship of Theseus and white Vision and the debate they had.
Is white vision, still Vision from before the mind stone ripping outting?
I mean he has all the memories of old vision now, does that make him Wandas Vision? Are we not the sum total of our memories:?

 whembly wrote:
Whew lads... loved this series and I cant wait for more Wanda/Vison stories.

As to the debate about Wanda not being in control and should bear more 'punishment' for her deeds...

Ya'll, why are you treating Wanda different than just about any other superpower movie?

Its not hard to look for massed injuries and casualties in these movies. And yet, the critics are largely silent about the moral culpabilities of the heroes/protagonists to the damage they've caused.

The closest I can think of are the recent Superman movies, where one of the plot devices was Batman's reaction to the damage caused by the fight between Superman and Zod.

...am I off base here??

Very. Considering that was the whole point of Captain America: Civil War, and the focus of that was Wanda's actions.
And, oh look, that ended up with them in a secret prison, and Wanda in particular in a collar and straightjacket. Justified or not, there were actually consequences to actions.
Plus the side conflict of whether Bucky-the-Person was responsible for the actions Hydra used Bucky-the-Tool for.

Hell, it was a talking point at the end of the first Avengers movie (the news bit of the senator wanting to hold them responsible for the battle).
Its certainly the main fallout of the latest Spiderman movie.

The reason critics are silent about heroes and culpability in the films is because the films actually try to grapple with it on some level. They're not always successful, but then don't just nudge it off the table with 'Oh, the story isn't about that.' Which as quotes about movies go, isn't quite as good as Kevin Smith's comment that Jersey Girl wasn't 'for' critics, but still rather ridiculous.


----
@hotsauceman1- We aren't (research suggests that a lot of other factors have some, equal or even more importance than personality or memories when it comes to human action), but Vision is a machine. So... tentatively yes. Vision has been restored from backups with potentially a little extra (experiences from inside the Hex).

On the other hand, there maybe some other extras from Wanda herself, given that Hex Vision is based on her perception and memory of Vision. Its going to depend hugely on how later writers want to run with the idea of Wanda's magic. They could decide that Wanda's magic is absolutely true or that her magic is tied to her emotions and inherently unpredictable (it is supposedly 'chaos magic'), and the new Vision is something completely different. Or some other sort of dreadful waffling that I can't predict. The Ship of Theseus debate could be inherently flawed, because their assumptions could be entirely off base depending on how the magic works.

Depends how much the Mind Stone provided a “soul”. And how metaphysical the MCU wants to get (which at the moment seems to be “surprisingly, quite a lot”!)

I'm not sure how the presence or absence of a theoretical 'soul' would alter anything.

Or how a rock made from a singularity would hand one out.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
So guys, how much is this an argument for the sake of argument? 100%, 90%, 50%?

You are aware that you can choose not to participate in a conversation that you are not interested in, right?

Sure, but eventually the circular arguments hit a zenith, and some one needs to say so.


On a related note, I am glad to see that my prediction about the fans of the show not liking the ending came to pass. Endings are really hard because everyone has the ending they WANT to see, and instead get the ending the show gives us.

Ha, no. Endings are usually the easiest part, as the writers are usually working backwards from the end or are letting consequences unfold naturally. Beginnings are real difficult, as you have to get the audience invested in the setup without showing everything early. Transitions can be tricky as well. But not endings.

The problem here is the natural ending of the show was derailed by Agatha's plans, Hayward's plots and -especially-Wanda's sudden magical Chosen One destiny. All the plot threads from the beginning and the consequences of her choices are abandoned, unresolved in a hot mess.
The writers seem to feel they weren't obliged to write an ending (see "the story wasn't about that") and they've passed the buck down the road to some future movie or series. One day. Maybe.

Pretty good odds the actress will retire from marvel films or no later writers will bother picking up the threads before that one day happens.

Tell me a tentpole show in the last 5 years fans actually LIKED the ending of?

Endings should be easy, but like I said. There is the ending the reader wants, and then their is the ending the creator wants. They often clash.

 Easy E wrote:
Tell me a tentpole show in the last 5 years fans actually LIKED the ending of?

Endgame.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Tell me a tentpole show in the last 5 years fans actually LIKED the ending of?

Endgame.

I would say Infinity War but I guess Endgame works too.