Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Honestly?

If forcing specific software on an hardware is an illicit monopoly, the same goes for minis and rules.
And, truth to be told, none is forcing you to do anything or using GW miniatures for GW rules or viceversa. WYSIWYG is a behaviour that applies regardless

I simply avoid any venues (GW or otherwise) that pretend to tell me how should I play with my toys, or what my toys should be. Simply do not support them... And they'll disappear.

Except GW won’t just “disappear”
If it’s in their shops and events, that’s fine.
It’s as much a showcase of their products as it is anything else.
You couldn’t pick up food in one restaurant and sit in another one to eat it.

If it’s not GW run/owned there’s no issue with what is used.
That’s simply down to the people that run it/play in it.

Jackal90 wrote:
Except GW won’t just “disappear”
If it’s in their shops and events, that’s fine.
It’s as much a showcase of their products as it is anything else.
You couldn’t pick up food in one restaurant and sit in another one to eat it.

If it’s not GW run/owned there’s no issue with what is used.
That’s simply down to the people that run it/play in it.

Game stores that refuse to allow games other than GW might, though. Not talking about GW's own shops but independent shops. A lot of those are narrow-minded and actively are hostile to games they don't stock, even if they can special order it or have a community asking about it.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But they aren't relying on cult-like brainwashing to sell 80s quality garbage like Corvus Belli or Privateer, nor do they quite stoop to ponzi-scheme deceptions and price-gauges like FFG and others. Overall, compared to a lot what's out there, GW has some reasonable stuff.

This must be sarcasm.

Cult-like brainwashing? Have you seen the average 40k Facebook group?

 Arbitrator wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But they aren't relying on cult-like brainwashing to sell 80s quality garbage like Corvus Belli or Privateer, nor do they quite stoop to ponzi-scheme deceptions and price-gauges like FFG and others. Overall, compared to a lot what's out there, GW has some reasonable stuff.

This must be sarcasm.

Cult-like brainwashing? Have you seen the average 40k Facebook group?

Kek. It's always the sad truth that GW (the company) and the GW fans are very much like the in-game Imperium.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But they aren't relying on cult-like brainwashing to sell 80s quality garbage like Corvus Belli or Privateer, nor do they quite stoop to ponzi-scheme deceptions and price-gauges like FFG and others. Overall, compared to a lot what's out there, GW has some reasonable stuff.

This must be sarcasm.

Cult-like brainwashing? Have you seen the average 40k Facebook group?

The average 40K Facebook group is pretty much like any other Facebook group. Not sure what difference there would be to the Infinity Facebook group. Or the Goldfish-breeder Facebook group. Or whatever. It's Facebook.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But they aren't relying on cult-like brainwashing to sell 80s quality garbage like Corvus Belli or Privateer, nor do they quite stoop to ponzi-scheme deceptions and price-gauges like FFG and others. Overall, compared to a lot what's out there, GW has some reasonable stuff.

This must be sarcasm.

Cult-like brainwashing? Have you seen the average 40k Facebook group?

The average 40K Facebook group is pretty much like any other Facebook group. Not sure what difference there would be to the Infinity Facebook group. Or the Goldfish-breeder Facebook group. Or whatever. It's Facebook.

IDK, I've seen a lot more groups that are more open to "yeah this is bad, but this other stuff is good" than 40k where its mostly "GW is great, we all love GW here if you don't GTFO"

Wayniac wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Cult-like brainwashing? Have you seen the average 40k Facebook group?

Kek. It's always the sad truth that GW (the company) and the GW fans are very much like the in-game Imperium.

Is it a sad truth, or just a perception?

Wayniac wrote:IDK, I've seen a lot more groups that are more open to "yeah this is bad, but this other stuff is good" than 40k where its mostly "GW is great, we all love GW here if you don't GTFO"

And the contrast here, where if you like GW, you're called a brainwashed cultist or white knight?

Also, have *you* seen 40k FB groups? The GW skepticism is strong there too. They're just focused on talking about GW, because, you know, it's a GW facebook group. What else would they talk about if not 40k? Do you go into things like Marvel groups and wonder why they're not talking about DC?

GW don't have a monopoly on tabletop games. If you believe that, you're why they have the perceived monopoly.

Want to play other games? You have to put the legwork in. Form your own groups. If those other games are good, then you shouldn't have too much of an effort convincing people to play them. Same as my experiences with D&D (which arguably has an even stronger "monopoly") - offer to play other games, facilitate other people's entry, and built a community yourself. This is happening in my circles with Star Wars Legion - some of us started, others liked what we were doing, and it becomes more and more popular. But there's no GW monopoly aside from over 40k, which is GW's own property. It'd be like saying "FFG have a monopoly over SW:Legion!"

Wayniac wrote:


It's always the sad truth that GW (the company) and the GW fans are very much like the in-game Imperium.

What? Besieged by all sides by bitter monsters who only wish to see it cast down and brought to ruin, its inhabitants slaughtered?

Yeah, sounds about right. (obviously joke is obvious, by the way...)

Here's the bitter truth wayniac. Some gw fans are apologists and enablers and defend and celebrate every dodgy decision they make. I very much doubt they are anything other than a tiny minority. They're a boogeyman, and lots of ordinary folks that like things, or even like some things,(or simply don't hate things), make things work or simply get on with things are lumped in with them for no other reason than we are not apoplectic with rageand venting said rage for every action gw makes, never mind our actual likes and dislikes.

But if we talk about them, can we also talk about the bitter ones, the hyper-criticals the haters and 'black knights' for whom nothing is ever good enough, who criticise every little thing gw does, who refuse to acknowledge any positivity, who never have a nice thing to say, who are always ready to tear down, never to build, who have a thousand negative and nasty criticisms, and never any compliments (or if there are, are so wrapped up in grudge and bile that it might as well be a criticism) and try and turn absolutely everything into an attack on gw, and who remain quiet when anyone else in the industry starts being a cheeky bugger too? It seems there's a line of thought that your opinion only matters when it's to lash out at gw.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
They're not remotely a monopoly. They're just the biggest fish in a small pond.

Of the global market as a whole, sure. But GW definitely have a monopoly on certain areas. Where I’m currently living there’s no “just play Warmachine instead”. It’s just “play Warhammer or don’t tabletop”. So they definitely have a meeting maybe monopoly as far as here is concerned

From my experience RPG players are *way* more open to other systems than 40k players.
Hell, experimenting with different systems seems part of the RPG culture.
Quite the opposite amongst 40k players.

The DnD/5e comparison with GW is... only sort of true, insofar as there's definitely groups and stores out there who will act like you've just killed their firstborn at the idea of playing something other than DnD (Adventures in Middle-Earth outsold The One Ring by stupid numbers despite literally the only difference being the core mechanics), but those tend to be the extremes and whilst most people do return to DnD, are at least open minded to the idea of playing others. Hell, there's a sizeable number of people who're just happy to BE a player in any game.

It's much easier to get people to try other RPGs because typically only one person is really 'needed' to buy into it and the eco-bubble is only really that group of friends. Sure if they all love it they might grab rulebooks for themselves, but rarely is that needed and even then, a £20-£40 RPG book gathering dust on a shelf is far easier to swallow than £100-£300 worth of unused plastic/metal/resin and accompanying books. This is probably also why historical wargames tend to have a lot of people talking and trying about alternative systems, because the only real factor there is scale - a 15mm Sherman tank is a 15mm Sherman tank whether you buy it from Battlefront, Plastic Soldier Company or whoever - meaning it's far more common to see those groups trying out different games.

RPGs are also different in that you 'want' a consistent group. You don't want to be dealing with different players every week, you want consistent and familiar faces in order to make the group work - it's a cooperative game with at least some focus on the group dynamic, whether that be purely mechanical or you being heavily invested in the characters. Whilst wargaming groups can and do absolutely work with just a small handful of people, the competitive nature - I mean rules wise, not in the sense of WAAC tournament vs casual - means that having a bigger population will usually make the community feel more alive, the game itself less at risk of dropping off and dying.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Also, have *you* seen 40k FB groups? The GW skepticism is strong there too. They're just focused on talking about GW, because, you know, it's a GW facebook group. What else would they talk about if not 40k? Do you go into things like Marvel groups and wonder why they're not talking about DC?

Scepticism/criticism of GW tends to get put down very quickly on a lot of Facebook groups, not all, but I'd say most. It's rarely 'outright banned' but topics are usually locked very quickly, or all discussion is lost amidst a sea of white knights running to it's defence, typically pointing to "well if GW aren't the bestist company ever why are their sales so high huh?" That's not to say other game's groups are devoid of it - Marvel Crisis Protocol supposedly has a very No Negativity Allowed group - but by enlarge the communities tend to not outright shut down any perceived negativity as GW ones do.

Want to play other games? You have to put the legwork in. Form your own groups. If those other games are good, then you shouldn't have too much of an effort convincing people to play them. Same as my experiences with D&D (which arguably has an even stronger "monopoly") - offer to play other games, facilitate other people's entry, and built a community yourself. This is happening in my circles with Star Wars Legion - some of us started, others liked what we were doing, and it becomes more and more popular. But there's no GW monopoly aside from over 40k, which is GW's own property. It'd be like saying "FFG have a monopoly over SW:Legion!"

Sometimes the legwork just isn't enough. Sometimes it just doesn't matter how good a game is. Whilst it's often not an outright impossible task, it's definitely an effort to get anymore than maybe 1-2 people into something in most cases. Also, even if you do put in the legwork, foster a community, get games going on the reg, often times the death knell of those same communities is 40k Malibu Stacy getting a new hat rolled out, which makes everybody run back to it exclusively for months and leave previous games in the dust.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
They're not remotely a monopoly. They're just the biggest fish in a small pond.

Of the global market as a whole, sure. But GW definitely have a monopoly on certain areas. Where I’m currently living there’s no “just play Warmachine instead”. It’s just “play Warhammer or don’t tabletop”. So they definitely have a meeting maybe monopoly as far as here is concerned

That's up to you to sort out. You want your group to play something else? Get that something else, introduce them too it and show them a fun time with it. I had too with a few different games. Can take time, but it depends entirely how much effort you're willing to put in.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
They're not remotely a monopoly. They're just the biggest fish in a small pond.

Of the global market as a whole, sure. But GW definitely have a monopoly on certain areas. Where I’m currently living there’s no “just play Warmachine instead”. It’s just “play Warhammer or don’t tabletop”. So they definitely have a meeting maybe monopoly as far as here is concerned

That's up to you to sort out. You want your group to play something else? Get that something else, introduce them too it and show them a fun time with it. I had too with a few different games. Can take time, but it depends entirely how much effort you're willing to put in.

It's really not that easy.
Even for game systems where I have 100% of the bits to play, all they need to do is leave their 40k army at home one week to try it out. But no one is interested.

Like anything else on the internet, the fanbois and haters for GW are far louder than most people who fall somewhere in the middle. They just seem to be all over the place because they shout a lot louder.

The fanboi thing confuses me personally, it's just not how my personality is built, but I don't think you have to look far in the rest of society to see that rabidly following and supporting something no matter what fulfills a deep need in some people, and I really don't think those people are any more prevalent in 40k than in the world generally. You could say the same for the haters, though I personally understand the impulse to be overly critical more than the impulse to defend the indefensible.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
They're not remotely a monopoly. They're just the biggest fish in a small pond.

Of the global market as a whole, sure. But GW definitely have a monopoly on certain areas. Where I’m currently living there’s no “just play Warmachine instead”. It’s just “play Warhammer or don’t tabletop”. So they definitely have a meeting maybe monopoly as far as here is concerned

That's up to you to sort out. You want your group to play something else? Get that something else, introduce them too it and show them a fun time with it. I had too with a few different games. Can take time, but it depends entirely how much effort you're willing to put in.

It's really not that easy.
Even for game systems where I have 100% of the bits to play, all they need to do is leave their 40k army at home one week to try it out. But no one is interested.

So there is literally no barrier to these people playing the other game, they just don't want to? How is that the result of GW having a monopoly?

soviet13 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
They're not remotely a monopoly. They're just the biggest fish in a small pond.

Of the global market as a whole, sure. But GW definitely have a monopoly on certain areas. Where I’m currently living there’s no “just play Warmachine instead”. It’s just “play Warhammer or don’t tabletop”. So they definitely have a meeting maybe monopoly as far as here is concerned

That's up to you to sort out. You want your group to play something else? Get that something else, introduce them too it and show them a fun time with it. I had too with a few different games. Can take time, but it depends entirely how much effort you're willing to put in.

It's really not that easy.
Even for game systems where I have 100% of the bits to play, all they need to do is leave their 40k army at home one week to try it out. But no one is interested.

So there is literally no barrier to these people playing the other game, they just don't want to? How is that the result of GW having a monopoly?

You've not tried to get many people to try other game have you? Been there, done that and it's like pissing into the wind...

It's a self perpetuating cycle. People don't want to play those games as they think they cannot get opponents, but none of those opponents will come along unless you get more players. Despite all it's faults, GW fulfils both of those criteria, creating a de facto monopoly. No, not in a literal sense- nobody is saying that, but there are two (3 if you count the comic shop) FLGSs in this city and seeing a non GW game to be played in any of them is rarer than rocking horse gak.

 Grimtuff wrote:

It's a self perpetuating cycle. People don't want to play those games as they think they cannot get opponents, but none of those opponents will come along unless you get more players. Despite all it's faults, GW fulfils both of those criteria, creating a de facto monopoly. No, not in a literal sense- nobody is saying that, but there are two (3 if you count the comic shop) FLGSs in this city and seeing a non GW game to be played in any of them is rarer than rocking horse gak.

This is exactly it. 40k is in a self-sustaining cycle.
The ability to easily find opponents is a *huge* attraction in a wargame, and the only games that really provide this are 40k and AoS.
So when everyone is playing 40k because it has all the players, everyone avoids other wargames because they don't have the players.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
A fair number of companies employ far more predatory, unsavoury and unconscientious marketing methods than GW does (FFG and Corvus Belli being prime examples). Others simply offer inferior products, where the slight discount you might get over GW product in no way or form justifies the horrid quality issues you buy into in both miniatures and rules (e.g. Privateer).

Yes, Bostria is a deceiver. So unsavory, so unconscientious.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

It's a self perpetuating cycle. People don't want to play those games as they think they cannot get opponents, but none of those opponents will come along unless you get more players. Despite all it's faults, GW fulfils both of those criteria, creating a de facto monopoly. No, not in a literal sense- nobody is saying that, but there are two (3 if you count the comic shop) FLGSs in this city and seeing a non GW game to be played in any of them is rarer than rocking horse gak.

This is exactly it. 40k is in a self-sustaining cycle.
The ability to easily find opponents is a *huge* attraction in a wargame, and the only games that really provide this are 40k and AoS.
So when everyone is playing 40k because it has all the players, everyone avoids other wargames because they don't have the players.

Once upon a time, we had a small WMH group going at one of these FLGSs (and before then the local club). The sheer amount of people who didn't want to get into the game, despite playing it several times with my own and other people's minis was staggering. I tried everything, even suggesting with Christmas coming up they ask for a starter box (it was only £25 after all. Not large in terms of Christmas presents for a lot of people), just like I had with a Malifaux box. Nope. Nothing. Still no biters. All the excuses under the sun like them having "no money" (no Callum, I see you getting a Domino's almost daily...) etc. so I just gave up. Like I said, pissing into the wind.

We had a guy doing the same but with KoW. He disappeared too. Cannot think why...

 Grimtuff wrote:


Once upon a time, we had a small WMH group going at one of these FLGSs (and before then the local club). The sheer amount of people who didn't want to get into the game, despite playing it several times with my own and other people's minis was staggering. I tried everything, even suggesting with Christmas coming up they ask for a starter box (it was only £25 after all. Not large in terms of Christmas presents for a lot of people), just like I had with a Malifaux box. Nope. Nothing. Still no biters. All the excuses under the sun like them having "no money" (no Callum, I see you getting a Domino's almost daily...) etc. so I just gave up. Like I said, pissing into the wind.

We had a guy doing the same but with KoW. He disappeared too. Cannot think why...

Here in the SF Bay Area we had store owners telling people that nobody played Warmahordes while there was a 12-person tournament going on in their store. And then PP used the guy's testimonial as part of their MK 3 rollout.

God they were dumb. Matt Wilson deserves what he gets.

It's not a monopoly, just difficult for new miniature games to get started. It's not easy to reach people and convince them to make the investment when they're worried it won't take off. There's also only so much time in the day. At least that's my reasoning for not buying a lot of other games.

What are these other game companies offering that GW doesn't? Some confluence of unique IP(star wars), lower cost, and the belief that they offer competitive play.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

It's a self perpetuating cycle. People don't want to play those games as they think they cannot get opponents, but none of those opponents will come along unless you get more players. Despite all it's faults, GW fulfils both of those criteria, creating a de facto monopoly. No, not in a literal sense- nobody is saying that, but there are two (3 if you count the comic shop) FLGSs in this city and seeing a non GW game to be played in any of them is rarer than rocking horse gak.

This is exactly it. 40k is in a self-sustaining cycle.
The ability to easily find opponents is a *huge* attraction in a wargame, and the only games that really provide this are 40k and AoS.
So when everyone is playing 40k because it has all the players, everyone avoids other wargames because they don't have the players.

There’s also comparatively easy access to GW’s products, especially in the U.K.

FFG in particular are known for supply issues, and long waits for new releases. PP? I don’t know anyone in my local area who plays, making interest tricky to garner, as the system has no voice.

And whether people like it or not, GW are the benchmark in all things. Rules, models, paints, availability, accessibility, price. Even gaming circles. For example, there are a handful of peeps who play Infinity. Unfortunately, I really don’t get on with one of them. Whilst that’s far from an indictment of the game, nor even a back handed attempt to paint its players in a poor light, it is a barrier to me getting involved. With GW? There’s two or three different groups to choose from, which all intersect in some way. So if there was someone I similarly just didn’t get on with, I needn’t engage with them at all.

And it’s that benchmark other manufacturers have to work around. Your price point, variety of models and quality of rules and miniatures needs to offer something GW doesn’t.

Let’s consider FFG’s short lived ranked fantasy game. It came, it went. It received a fair amount of hype, yet for what is likely a variety of reasons, it didn’t stick around. Any game is prone to that, but as a manufacturer, FFG have a reputation for just dropping games. Imperial Assault is one example. Came, sold a bunch, was dropped once Legion came along. And because they used different scales, one can’t easily port Imperial Assault collections over to Legions.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but that axe hovering all their game systems makes me reticent to invest in anything they offer. Because I don’t get to play very often, and I don’t want to drop a bunch of cash only to find out it’s just become a dead game.

To take my city as an example, we have a GW store but also at least 3 FLGSs that sell a mixture of GW and non-GW stuff, and run GW and non-GW game nights (not right now though obviously). That is not a monopoly. It may be that if you went into the GW you would struggle to get interest in, I dunno, Infinity. But if you went into the other places you could probably find a game.

So they disliked the games? Explains why they didn’t want to buy into them.
Just because they have had several games does not mean they liked it, it may have been out of courtesy and politeness.

I wouldn’t be willing to buy into a game I didn’t like either.
Games like BFG/Xwing aren’t for me, so despite trying them out, I wouldn’t buy it.

Surprisingly, you can have an opinion on something but you cannot force it on others and expect them to agree.
Everyone has their own tastes.



For me, I mainly play GW games for a few reasons.

1: that’s what I started out playing.
2: I love the models. While they are on the higher side of price, the sculpts really are better than the vast majority of other companies.
3: the convenience of finding a game. It’s a huge fan base, so finding games is easy.


On the flip side, I’ve more recently started playing things like FoW, which I’m growing to love pretty quickly.

I think more than the defacto monopoly the attitude of "official models only" is the culprit with regard to overpriced HQs in particular.

Like, it is easy to convert a lot of the pricey HQs from basic troop models with a bit of creativity.
Just looking at Blades of Khorne as an example, the various Deathbringers and Skullgrinders and Slaughterpriests would be easy to kitbash out of the Blood Warriors kits. I've kitbashed the Astrolith Bearer out of a spare saurus and some other bits, it was easy.

But you see an attitude that is against this, because people somehow feel it devalues their own minis or something. That was clever of GW and that is the attitude they are trying to fix in peoples minds - that it should be limited only to products you buy, not stuff you create yourself.

Jackal90 wrote:
So they disliked the games? Explains why they didn’t want to buy into them.
Just because they have had several games does not mean they liked it, it may have been out of courtesy and politeness.

I never said that...

I'll paraphrase the owner of said FLGS. "Gamers are the flakiest bunch of people I've ever met.". These same people signed up for tournaments of WMH, some bought models, the FLGS itself bought in a bunch of models because they said they were interested. Then they balked.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
So they disliked the games? Explains why they didn’t want to buy into them.
Just because they have had several games does not mean they liked it, it may have been out of courtesy and politeness.

I never said that...

I'll paraphrase the owner of said FLGS. "Gamers are the flakiest bunch of people I've ever met.". These same people signed up for tournaments of WMH, some bought models, the FLGS itself bought in a bunch of models because they said they were interested. Then they balked.

Well there had to be some reason for that.
Play group? Check
Place to play? Check
Models/access to models? Check
Played some? Check

Conclusion: they decided they didn't like it enough to continue.

My experience thtough is in many cases it's "It's not Warhammer" as the only reason. Like Grimtuff said wargamers are incredibly flaky. I've seen people talk about how great a game is, and then a week or two later forget all about it. I've seen a community start up around a game and within a month or two everyone just went back to 40k after playing the game and enjoying it, with no reasoning.

I would not be surprised if a big factor is "People play 40k, they don't play <insert other game>" or well only 5 people play that game, and despite that being more than enough to play and have a budding community, people want tot have the luxury of turning up to the game store and finding a game.

And that right there is the problem. THere are lots of really good games out there that ingrained 40k groups literally say they don't even want to know about because it's not 40k/not GW.

That's not so strange.

If I'm satisfied with the current product, I don't look for another one.