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This isn't going anywhere productive, guys. How about you both just take a breather and see if the thread actually has any other life in it?


For everyone else - let's see if we can wander back to the actual topic, if there still is one, please.

 insaniak wrote:
This isn't going anywhere productive, guys. How about you both just take a breather and see if the thread actually has any other life in it?


For everyone else - let's see if we can wander back to the actual topic, if there still is one, please.

Thanks insaniak, for both interventions.

Personally I'm happy to pay a premium for plastic characters, especially the more idiosyncratic ones like the Tallyman and the GSC ones, if the alternatives are a) we wouldn't get them, or not so many of them, or b) they'd come in metal or resin.

Actual topic - GW does charges a premium because, quite frankly, they can. That's not to say that people can't customise their own heroes, or that all hero sculpts are bad now (I see plenty of excellent conversions of the Primaris stuff) but yes, they're getting pricey.
However, picking up extra HQ bodies doesn't seem to be super hard when you factor in things like the bundle packs, where the discount is usually enough to completely remove the cost the HQ model. The various Start Collecting boxes are great for this, as are things like the Indomitus stuff.

So, if you're buying individual HQs, maybe? But there's plenty of ways to get around the price, either by picking them up from discounted boxes, resales from said discounted boxes, or converting. Its definitely egregious on non-unique heroes, sure, but on something like Calgar which you only need one of, it's not unreasonable to me.

8 Pages huh..?

For better or worse GW is what it is and charges what it charges. EVERYONE knows their gak is premium priced.. Wether its worth it or not is purely subjective..
Is this really a debate?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Actual topic - GW does charges a premium because, quite frankly, they can. That's not to say that people can't customise their own heroes, or that all hero sculpts are bad now (I see plenty of excellent conversions of the Primaris stuff) but yes, they're getting pricey.
However, picking up extra HQ bodies doesn't seem to be super hard when you factor in things like the bundle packs, where the discount is usually enough to completely remove the cost the HQ model. The various Start Collecting boxes are great for this, as are things like the Indomitus stuff.

Only star collecting boxs for a lot of factions came with models no one wanted, and that is assuming a faction actualy has a start collecting box. Indomitus was a great box too, sadly GW forgot to split them in a more fair way, so some parts of the world have left over boxs at their stores, while other didn't get enough to cover even the base local needs, not to mention maxing out specific unit options.

But you are right people aren't taking it, and this way we get so many HQ options being in resin.

I won't lie, the detail of their premium sculpts look great in glass, as opposed to say, WizKids DND models, which look well, cheap and it really needs a good artist to make it look decent. GW models have defined features, and trinkets. Their premium models are even more so. Take Trajaan or any other Chapter Master-esque sculpt, now compare that to a basic trooper. They are worth the added cost.

I dunno, I just used your example and went and look at Trajan:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Captain-general-Trajann-Valoris-2018

And a normal Allarus:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Adeptus-Custodes-Allarus-Custodians-2018

And I'm not convinced there's a lot of a difference. Of course, Trajan is also only twice as expensive as a normal Allarus, so he's actually positively cheap by GW standards. Look at a Primaris Lieutenant vs a Primaris squad - you're paying 5x as much for the character as a normal.

They do charge more for characters, and it's smart of them to do so, because people who pay that much will be antagonistic towards people who convert said characters, even if it's a high-quality conversion. It fuels the fires of passive consumerism.

GW has a problem of its own making that costumers are left paying for. Having made a fuss of goin from metal to not so finecast, GW cannot go back to metal for cheaper molds on low volume products, likewise it cannot use resin due to finecast's tarnished reputation and the smaller fuss about its move to plastic.

Let me see what, say Artel "W" chargers for a character vs GW. If I consider their offerings comparable, then the price difference must be a tax for the privilege of owning an officially sanctioned model. That does not encourage me to by GW's miniature as the perceived value comes from the rules requiring official components, not the miniatures innate quality.

Everyone, we get no where fast attacking each other on GWs behalf. I don't think people who buy or play the game are wrong ( I do such when I can, which hasn't been much lately. )

That said, I think we all know why GW gets such a pass. Market placement as a Market leader. Saturation of product and size of foot print makes it hold lots of things that appeal to gamers. Aside from the hobby aspect.

We have all I am sure picked up other games just for those we got into it with to fall away, be very fickle or just poof away. We all have jumped into a game been like " this is nice " but maybe been the only one feeling that way.

Love it or hate it, GWs size place it at the forefront, steady availability of opponents to play with keep it rolling forward. It needs to do little more than keep churning out content and it will keep moving as the inertia keep it pressing forward, currently.

I, personally, don't think anyone is dumb for playing it, we all have friends and memories and drives that keep most of us in the game.

What we need to do less is attack each other on either side and/or fight to the death for a company that couldn't really care less about any of us.They aren't our friends, owe us nothing and really just view us as money on legs.

GW charges these huge prices and eventually it'll bite them, like it or not our generations are going to head to the sunset and most kids don't really care about stuff like this. They'll need to eventually find a path that isn't just milking the whales each new release. In the mean time it's each of our choices to buy in or not but at the least not hate each other over our stances on it. Honestly, while the friends I've made and memories I have while playing warhammer are priceless the company of GW isn't worth my respect I give to others or the respect I have for myself. So lets not fall into the trap and point fingers at each other. We are the reason this game ends up even for a moment good, despite GWs fleecing, ham fisted rules and asinine choices.If it thrives its because of us, as a game is nothing without a community.

Hecaton wrote:
They do charge more for characters, and it's smart of them to do so, because people who pay that much will be antagonistic towards people who convert said characters, even if it's a high-quality conversion. It fuels the fires of passive consumerism.

I've NEVER heard of anyone doing that. I buy many of my HQs buy I don't get upset if I see someone with a conversion. I say "cool conversion man, how'd you do it" I've also converted stuff myself mind you (I once bought a pack of ETB intercessors specificly so I could then build 2 Leuitenants and a captain from bits in a multipart intercessor kit)

I'm quite convinced that for many HQs, it is an actual issue of cost vs expected sales.

I'm also quite convinced that on some kits this isn't true and they just use the customer's expected price of the HQ to rake in a huge margin on that specific model. SM Lts being the prime suspects in this.

They don't raise prices on non-character kits if they think they'll sell less, so I dunno why they would be doing it with characters only.

GW prices based on model count, role, and, to some degree, points cost. I haven't seen any evidence that expected sales come into it at all. They just don't make something in the first place if they'd have to price it even higher than their normal eye-watering levels to turn a profit.

BrianDavion wrote:
I've NEVER heard of anyone doing that. I buy many of my HQs buy I don't get upset if I see someone with a conversion. I say "cool conversion man, how'd you do it" I've also converted stuff myself mind you (I once bought a pack of ETB intercessors specificly so I could then build 2 Leuitenants and a captain from bits in a multipart intercessor kit)

I've seen it. I wish I had pictures. My area blackshirt would get snippy with this 13 yo kid who would convert his Dark Angels characters out of other things - they looked good, but not all of them had cowls/robes/etc.

Hecaton wrote:
They do charge more for characters, and it's smart of them to do so, because people who pay that much will be antagonistic towards people who convert said characters, even if it's a high-quality conversion. It fuels the fires of passive consumerism.

That antagonism? It's just jealousy & shame when they realize that they paid GW $35 for a single dude with a power sword & pistol & I matched it for a fraction.

Spoletta wrote:
I'm quite convinced that for many HQs, it is an actual issue of cost vs expected sales.

I'm also quite convinced that on some kits this isn't true and they just use the customer's expected price of the HQ to rake in a huge margin on that specific model. SM Lts being the prime suspects in this.

Yeah, that was the same with CSM sorcerers a few years back. They went from being around 15$ to 20$, then they took another price hike up to 30$. But when it comes to characters, especially named ones. You get these weird instances where they will most definitely not add up to he price that they are marked for in some cases. Or GW will flood the market with special editions, like that GK Chaplin that got released a while back.

Which only serves to throw everyone off even more.

there is a reason why some Special Characters are released together with a box of old models

the issue with costs vs sales is solved by GW to use other molds for those frames that are expected be low sales
they made a big deal of that in the past to use Aluminium instead of Steel, which limits the number of models that can be made by a lot but also just cost a 10th of a steel mold to make

this is also a reason why some models are OOP after the initial run, as after the initial casting the mold is gone and it is not worth to make another one

other companies don't have this possibility and therfore use other materials that are better suited for smaller numbers (White Metal or Resin)

but you still pay the Premium price for this single models
you don't need to be afraid that the margin of single model frames is any different as for the normal boxes

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I've NEVER heard of anyone doing that. I buy many of my HQs buy I don't get upset if I see someone with a conversion. I say "cool conversion man, how'd you do it" I've also converted stuff myself mind you (I once bought a pack of ETB intercessors specificly so I could then build 2 Leuitenants and a captain from bits in a multipart intercessor kit)

I've seen it. I wish I had pictures. My area blackshirt would get snippy with this 13 yo kid who would convert his Dark Angels characters out of other things - they looked good, but not all of them had cowls/robes/etc.

Those people you described are typical TFGs that should be avoided at all cost.

And by that logic should anyone who owns an expensive army like GSC, orks, tyranids, etc be hostile against SM, custodes, IK players because those guys saved hundreds to collect their armies?

Blackie, i found, that many of the more human like factions that are massed tend to search for 3rd parties themselves.
The cadians simply suck at this stage and the prices GW demands for "basic humie with pseudo insignia" is ridiculous.

Also they often end up beeing cheaper then the formerly named elite factions that way.

Hecaton wrote:
They do charge more for characters, and it's smart of them to do so, because people who pay that much will be antagonistic towards people who convert said characters, even if it's a high-quality conversion. It fuels the fires of passive consumerism.

I think this is quite accurate with some people, people feel foolish for having spent so much for a character.
I actually think this applies to 40k as a whole. There's a sense of "I spent £30, so you should have to too".
A sentiment I often see in places online is along the lines of "if you can't afford to spend this kind of money, you shouldn't play 40k", which is an attitude that disgusts me. Honestly, I wish 2d sprite miniatures were acceptable and not frowned upon.

In my community it is pretty normal to show up with converted miniatures and nobody making a fuss about it.

Especially a Marine kitbash where you can basically interchange the whole range with each other.

Sounds weird that somebody would criticize another player for it. The reason being that somebody got their conversion cheaper than the original is even weirder to me.

Getting some specific bits can get expensive really quick, actually.

I'm relatively certain that a person with that kind of attitude to other players would not be welcomed for long in our gaming club.

The thing with conversions that I often notice the price of the conversion is taken into account for how "good" it is.
If you bought a Veteran kit and kitbashed them with a few other odds and sods to build 5 Space Marine Characters those are considered lazy.
But if you bought two actual characters and kitbashed them into one, that's a great conversion.
Sure the latter will most likely look better, but I find the idea that conversions are always encouraged regardless of source to generally be false. The sentiment of "it's all about making your own characters" doesn't seem to apply in the real world.

I remember when I was younger I bought one Sanguinary Guard kit and used it to build a Chaplain, a Librarian, a Captain, a Sanguinary Priest, and a Sanguinary Guard Banner (Ancients weren't a bespoke thing). The Games workshop where I played wouldn't allow it.
But once I bought a Chaplain character and split the parts 50/50 between the above Chaplain and Librarian, both were now legit and awesome conversions.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The thing with conversions that I often notice the price of the conversion is taken into account for how "good" it is.
If you bought a Veteran kit and kitbashed them with a few other odds and sods to build 5 Space Marine Characters those are considered lazy.
But if you bought two actual characters and kitbashed them into one, that's a great conversion.
Sure the latter will most likely look better, but I find the idea that conversions are always encouraged regardless of source to generally be false. The sentiment of "it's all about making your own characters" doesn't seem to apply in the real world.

I remember when I was younger I bought one Sanguinary Guard kit and used it to build a Chaplain, a Librarian, a Captain, a Sanguinary Priest, and a Sanguinary Guard Banner (Ancients weren't a bespoke thing). The Games workshop where I played wouldn't allow it.
But once I bought a Chaplain character and split the parts 50/50 between the above Chaplain and Librarian, both were now legit and awesome conversions.

Lol

what a typicall GW gakky attitude.

The cost means jack all. And a good or even great conversion can cost more or less as there should never be a reason to include cost in regards to the endproduct.
Shame really, considering how much GW did encourage Conversion work and that it was one of the reasons as to why 40k thrived early.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
They do charge more for characters, and it's smart of them to do so, because people who pay that much will be antagonistic towards people who convert said characters, even if it's a high-quality conversion. It fuels the fires of passive consumerism.

I think this is quite accurate with some people, people feel foolish for having spent so much for a character.
I actually think this applies to 40k as a whole. There's a sense of "I spent £30, so you should have to too".
A sentiment I often see in places online is along the lines of "if you can't afford to spend this kind of money, you shouldn't play 40k", which is an attitude that disgusts me. Honestly, I wish 2d sprite miniatures were acceptable and not frowned upon.

To be fair, there's a gradient here. And it's different for everyone. I doubt that xharicature is anything other than a tiny minority.

Theres a difference between clever conversions that show creativity and even save a few quid, and being cheap.

I put in time and effort into buying, building and painting my army. Some lazy gakker turns up with a barely build unpainted grey tide, coke cans for drop pods, both rhinos are predators and this gi joe is marneus calgar.

I don't feel 'foolish' for putting time effort and money into my hobby which I enjoy, and while I certainly won't preach as to the 'right' way to enjoy one's time, there is a point where I will think less of folks for their approach especially in a shared experience. There is a point where cutting corners becomes cheeky and even disrespectful to others and cuts down on the shared enjoyment.

Folks will always be welcome in my eyes, but sooner or later, that kids gotta buck up and put some effort in like the rest of us.


also regarding conversions, at least they're more encouraged in gw land. In warmachine there was indifference if not outright hostility towards anything other than the 'official' model...

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The thing with conversions that I often notice the price of the conversion is taken into account for how "good" it is.
If you bought a Veteran kit and kitbashed them with a few other odds and sods to build 5 Space Marine Characters those are considered lazy.
But if you bought two actual characters and kitbashed them into one, that's a great conversion.
Sure the latter will most likely look better, but I find the idea that conversions are always encouraged regardless of source to generally be false. The sentiment of "it's all about making your own characters" doesn't seem to apply in the real world.

Again, with that attitude in mind people should antagonize guys playing with armies that come mostly if not entirely from starter sets as they're extremely cheap compared to anything else. Should those players be considered lazy as well?

 Argive wrote:
8 Pages huh..?

For better or worse GW is what it is and charges what it charges. EVERYONE knows their gak is premium priced.. Wether its worth it or not is purely subjective..
Is this really a debate?

This is the long and short of it. It's a premium product (whether you believe that or not), and it's priced accordingly. There is nothing else to it.

 Blackie wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The thing with conversions that I often notice the price of the conversion is taken into account for how "good" it is.
If you bought a Veteran kit and kitbashed them with a few other odds and sods to build 5 Space Marine Characters those are considered lazy.
But if you bought two actual characters and kitbashed them into one, that's a great conversion.
Sure the latter will most likely look better, but I find the idea that conversions are always encouraged regardless of source to generally be false. The sentiment of "it's all about making your own characters" doesn't seem to apply in the real world.

Again, with that attitude in mind people should antagonize guys playing with armies that come mostly if not entirely from starter sets as they're extremely cheap compared to anything else. Should those players be considered lazy as well?

No. I think playing with 2d sprite models should be 100% legit.
I'm just relaying what I've seen - non-official models taken partly or entirely as cheaper alternatives are sometimes looked down upon. And I don't think it's a niche attitude.

I wish Guard got a "Veteran Kit"

 kirotheavenger wrote:

No. I think playing with 2d sprite models should be 100% legit.
I'm just relaying what I've seen - non-official models taken partly or entirely as cheaper alternatives are sometimes looked down upon. And I don't think it's a niche attitude.

Thankfully I never experienced that attitude, and ALL my armies are (or were, as I sold one) full of conversions. Like 25ish vehicles/artillery/walkers entirely made in plasticard plus bitz, 5-6 characters made from nobz, my flash gitz are all out of much cheaper (and way better looking) nobz, grotesques/talos/wracks converted from cheaper plastic bodies (still 100% GW though), green stuff and bitz, and all my SW characters except Njal are regular power armour dudes or TWC with additional bitz to enlighten them. All my conversions are WYSIWYG and with the appropriate dimensions though.

I may accept complaints about dimensions and loadouts, but about the cost of the model hell no. Eventually I'd ask those f***ing guys how much their entire collection is worth, and if it ends up cheaper than mine, which is actually easy as orks are expensive even with lots of scratch built stuff, I'd look down upon them as well.

You quite often see armies in White Dwarf or on the Community site that include 'counts as' style conversions and replacements
As long as it's not Coke can drop pods or the like people should experience no difficulties. This is a made-up problem.