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the_scotsman wrote:
GK players apologia I find the funniest because they take so personally every slight to their beloved GK except when it's made increasingly obvious that the entire reason they're being kept artificially terrible right now is because they're the one faction GW has no interest in moving over to primaris, so they're just desperately trying as hard as they can to passive-aggress every GK player on the planet into picking up Primaris Marines instead.

GW: "Look, here's a shiny new siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilver primaris marines chapter in a white dwarf, incidentally we've decided not to update GK and GK alone among all the loyalist marines to W2 cant imagine why, also another dozen new primaris kits coming up"

GK players: "Yes harder daddy please more I will be your stalwart guardian and defender"

The thing is despite GW's claim its not happening, you know the Primarisification of GK is inevitable.

I guess they are still weighing up whether its "yeah, you can take psychic Intercessors now, isn't it great" or actually doing a new kit, which is basically just... Intercessors but this time with Force Halberds.

Making primaris GK is a big investment of time and money, and someone has to write rules that won't make them dead on arrival. Now GK are no where near metal SoBs in popularity. But do not have a lot of players which GW could upset, if GW were to make nu GK good, old GK bad. So in a way, from GW point of view this is good.

Still rather risky to do, specially if there is no one in the studio that has any idea what to do with primaris GKs, other then give each intercessor class model a power sword and let the GK player take 2 librarians for each HQ slot.

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"

not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud

still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...

Yea, but they're only ever going to put so many models in a release window.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
The problem with space marine favoritism by gw is it can get to a point where people are only playing marines or what's really powerful and that's not fun. If everybody is playing marines that just sounds boring. Even if you're a marine player what's the point without some xenos to smash every so often.

I am not sure about that. There are multiple different marine factions, and they make different builds with different units, ending with the armies being played in a different way. I don't think that playing the same carbo copy tau or harli list is much less comparing to that. Unless of course we assume that xeno and non marines armies should all have multiple valid builds out of a single codex. This situation kind of a makes it rather unfun for marine players, who make up the majority of all players, eldar in 8th had their Inari book where it could rather practicaly anything and it worked. It was not a fun time to be a marine player, because it required marines player to build tournament lists for casual games to come even close to the power. And how fun to play tau were for marines, pre codex 2.0, I think everyone knows.

Karol wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
The problem with space marine favoritism by gw is it can get to a point where people are only playing marines or what's really powerful and that's not fun. If everybody is playing marines that just sounds boring. Even if you're a marine player what's the point without some xenos to smash every so often.

I am not sure about that. There are multiple different marine factions, and they make different builds with different units, ending with the armies being played in a different way. I don't think that playing the same carbo copy tau or harli list is much less comparing to that. Unless of course we assume that xeno and non marines armies should all have multiple valid builds out of a single codex. This situation kind of a makes it rather unfun for marine players, who make up the majority of all players, eldar in 8th had their Inari book where it could rather practicaly anything and it worked. It was not a fun time to be a marine player, because it required marines player to build tournament lists for casual games to come even close to the power. And how fun to play tau were for marines, pre codex 2.0, I think everyone knows.

Thats false.

And the book received a nerf.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"

not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud

still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...

Yea, but they're only ever going to put so many models in a release window.

the model bit, i can understand, the rules though are a WHOLE other issue for a company with online logistics established... that one is just there to manufacture discontent and frustration i feel

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yea, but they're only ever going to put so many models in a release window.

That sounds like a problem GW created for itself. I'm not going to argue that they should have dumped every Primaris release at once, but they would know better than any of us how many Primaris models they were going to make (or, at least, how many they had planned), and if it's a large number of kits they would be the ones who could decide to bend/break their self-imposed release limitations to prevent the current Marine fatigue. And yes, doing so could cause Marine players to be overwhelmed, and non-Marine players would certainly still get Marine fatigue (the core issue being the amount of time and effort given to Primaris rather than other factions, not just the fact that it's taking so fething long to get them all out), but at the very least they would have gotten it done and out of the way and whatever other work the design teams were doing would get out that much sooner.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Thats false.

And the book received a nerf.

And what nerf those were, one after another. And it only stopped being played when GW litteraly killed the codex with a WD one, at the end of the edition. Yeah after it was dead and no one played it, in deed no one was using it to run what ever they want. But when before that, everything was run out of it. Every nerf GW divined in their HQ, just ment that eldar either started running something else then just flocks and reapers, the fewer reapers, then shining spears, and then flyer lists.

Karol wrote:
It doesn't matter how much any other army brings in. SoB units are only bought by SoB players, Orks are only played by orks etc.

Most of the marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of marines. The ability to outsell other faction is always there.

Marines are the past, potatoes, wheat, corn, pick what ever is the basic ingridient of food in your country. there is no outselling that. Doesn't mean, that other armies can't be succesful or not from GW point of view.

Marines are only bought by Marine players.

You're basically just saying "Shoes are bought by people who wear shoes".

 Mmmpi wrote:


Marines are only bought by Marine players.

You're basically just saying "Shoes are bought by people who wear shoes".

No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines. It is shoes being bought by workers, sports people,children, women etc While something like a groin protector is bought by a specific small group of people.

And saying that other factions would sell just as well, if only GW focused on them more, is funny. non marine armies had more OP rules and for longer in 8th ed, and from what people say it was the same in other editions too. yet they never reached the sells marines had. And from stories I heard sometimes it was really easy to build xeno armies. Multiple riptides and some chaff. Multiple jetbikes and eldar tanks. Everything in plastic, and if you really need something not in plastic you can buy resin models from recasters for much cheaper then what GW asks for their stuff.

No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines. It is shoes being bought by workers, sports people,children, women etc While something like a groin protector is bought by a specific small group of people.

As a marine player, I once argued so hard that (ignoring GK, DW etc) Space Wolves were possibly the only army different enough to truly deserve their own full and separate codex that the thread eventually got locked.

That said, for the purposes of the model releases, a lot of the differences you are trying to call out don't really matter. Both of those armies can use Intercessors. Both of those armies can use Gladiators, both of those armies can use Aggressors, etc etc. You might have a point if we were complaining about guys on wolves (which ONLY SW can use) but that's not really the point being made. The fact is, GW has structured the Primaris stuff so that it fits with every chapter now.

And saying that other factions would sell just as well, if only GW focused on them more, is funny. non marine armies had more OP rules and for longer in 8th ed, and from what people say it was the same in other editions too. yet they never reached the sells marines had. And from stories I heard sometimes it was really easy to build xeno armies. Multiple riptides and some chaff. Multiple jetbikes and eldar tanks. Everything in plastic, and if you really need something not in plastic you can buy resin models from recasters for much cheaper then what GW asks for their stuff.

No army has ever, in the history of GW, seen a release schedule the length of the current marine schedule. It is literally laughable at this point (and I'm saying this as a marine player). No one has said "other armies would sell just as well", but the problem is, GW ignores lines for literal YEARS and then says "we don't work on them because they don't sell", while completely missing the fact that if they DID work on that faction, it would begin selling again. It's not that marines get more releases than anyone else (this will always be the case and is fine being that they are the cash cow), it's that we've gotten to a point where they are being worked on to the general detriment of other armies.

Karol wrote:

No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines. It is shoes being bought by workers, sports people,children, women etc While something like a groin protector is bought by a specific small group of people.

They are the same army. 95% of their units are legitimately the same units with a different paint scheme. Space Wolves are probably the most different SM army in the game and that is mostly due to the wolves/cavalry and werewolves.

Saying they are different armies is the same as saying that these Blue painted Orkz are a totally different army than these black painted orkz. Yeah they have a different name but they are the same models.

Karol wrote:
And saying that other factions would sell just as well, if only GW focused on them more, is funny. non marine armies had more OP rules and for longer in 8th ed, and from what people say it was the same in other editions too. yet they never reached the sells marines had. And from stories I heard sometimes it was really easy to build xeno armies. Multiple riptides and some chaff. Multiple jetbikes and eldar tanks. Everything in plastic, and if you really need something not in plastic you can buy resin models from recasters for much cheaper then what GW asks for their stuff.

I doubt anyone thinks any other faction would sell "as well" as Marines. Mostly because Marines are without a doubt the poster boy for GW and are the de facto "heroes" of 40k. But ironically your own argument/example proves you incredibly wrong almost immediately.

"it was really easy to build xeno armies" no, but lets take a look.

GW introduces riptides, Tau players go from a small xeno faction to one of the most heavily played tournament armies. People show up to events with "Triptides" 3+ riptides. On top of that, Tau were still; a relatively "new" army in general but they received a LOT of support in that time frame and TONS of models were sold. So GW made some decent money on releasing a good model with good rules.

Eldar in 7th were great as well, but what new kits did they get? windriders, farseer on jetbike and a couple others...how well did those sell? incredibly well. So why didn't the army sell really well? because nobody wanted models older than they were, but the new ones sold really well. So GW made money on the models they did release, but not the army as a whole because they had few real updates. Those that did get updates and good rules sold really well.

Orkz: arguably one of the worst armies in the game in 7th. We finally got some new kitz, Naughts and Mek Gunz. Those sold well, but the army didn't do very well in general for sales or play...because the rules were utter garbage plus the unreasonably high barrier to entrance which meant new players didn't want to start orkz (to get minimum 3 full troops choices was $300+). I mean literally fighting for worst in the game, and the keystone unit "naughts" were just worse versions of Imperial Knights. So The hardcore ork players bought a naught or two and maybe couple of mek gunz, but GW didn't really make any money because the army is hard to play, hard to build, expensive to build and the rules were garbage. *Fun Fact: Ork players tend to buy 1 Mek gun and than using all our bitz turn it into 3 because the model itself is MASSIVELY over priced money wise.

But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition. Hell, sticking with 7th, how many releases did SM get compared to everyone else?

Tycho wrote:

That said, for the purposes of the model releases, a lot of the differences you are trying to call out don't really matter. Both of those armies can use Intercessors. Both of those armies can use Gladiators, both of those armies can use Aggressors, etc etc. You might have a point if we were complaining about guys on wolves (which ONLY SW can use) but that's not really the point being made. The fact is, GW has structured the Primaris stuff so that it fits with every chapter now.

Exactly.

Primaris armies are different from chapter to chapter just like orks armies are different from klan to klan: they're identical barring one or two characters. The difference between modern SW and modern Ultramarines is that the former can be lead by Ragnar Blackmane, the latter have a bunch of different characters instead. That's it. Anything else, including units' loadouts, is exactly the same.

The difference between standalone chapters and vanilla marines comes from firstborn dedicated units, which are now for (very) casual games only basically. No one complaines about firstborn units because they don't have anything overpowered at the moment.

Karol wrote:


And what nerf those were, one after another. And it only stopped being played when GW litteraly killed the codex with a WD one, at the end of the edition. Yeah after it was dead and no one played it, in deed no one was using it to run what ever they want. But when before that, everything was run out of it. Every nerf GW divined in their HQ, just ment that eldar either started running something else then just flocks and reapers, the fewer reapers, then shining spears, and then flyer lists.

Ynnari got killed for more than a year. WD came out in may 2019, 9th edition came out in september. And again, not every eldar model was ran in the OP ynnari. I know you've got your head up your ass when it comes to pointy ears but they have more units than : shining spears, skyweavers, ravagers and dark reapers.

Oh, right, i remember the meta where people were freaking out about the OP Ynnari warpspiders/swoopinghawks/wyches/troupes/vypers/etc.

And you're complaining about multiple different things again. Eldar flyers WASNT an ynnari list. Its almost as if people adapted and went for the next good build when ynnari got nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

They are the same army. 95% of their units are legitimately the same units with a different paint scheme. Space Wolves are probably the most different SM army in the game and that is mostly due to the wolves/cavalry and werewolves.

not only that in 9th they can litterally be played from the same codex.

Technically dark eldar only had units cut from our codex since 5th. We lost trueborn, bloodbrides and like 4 to 5 special characters they didn't bother to even make a model for. It's gotten so bad I was thinking about switching to genestealer cult or admech and I heard gsc are also currently low tier. That said gsc and admech at least keep getting new models. I just want a unit to be excited about again. The new lelith model actually looks worse than the old one and they got rid of the awesome praying Mantis pose of drazhar that was so iconic. Vect? He hasn't been around for ages if he ever was. Meanwhile imperial guard and tau have tank commanders and super heavies and marines get a freaking primarch. Forge world is no different. Dark eldar have just 2 models....

This scene from willy wonka and the chocolate factory with charlie is how i feel shame and all.

Technically dark eldar only had units cut from our codex since 5th. We lost trueborn, bloodbrides and like 4 to 5 special characters they didn't bother to even make a model for. It's gotten so bad I was thinking about switching to genestealer cult or admech and I heard gsc are also currently low tier. That said gsc and admech at least keep getting new models. I just want a unit to be excited about again. The new lelith model actually looks worse than the old one and they got rid of the awesome praying Mantis pose of drazhar that was so iconic. Vect? He hasn't been around for ages if he ever was. Meanwhile imperial guard and tau have tank commanders and super heavies and marines get a freaking primarch. Forge world is no different. Dark eldar have just 2 models....

That's the thing that really kills me. Vect had a model! Yeah, it had semi-NSFW female slave models on it that really needed to go, but they couldn't just pull the model for a time, get rid of that part and re-release him? The main leader of a major faction who actually has a strat named after him and HAD a model, is no longer part of the codex ...

Meanwhile "And this is Primaris LT #600. You'll notice the distinctive slant of his gladius - a full .2 degrees more slanted than any other Primaris LT. This really sets him apart and makes him a truly unique member of any Primaris army"

But yes. Marines get hated on because of popularity. That has to be it.

Karol wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


Marines are only bought by Marine players.

You're basically just saying "Shoes are bought by people who wear shoes".

No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines. It is shoes being bought by workers, sports people,children, women etc While something like a groin protector is bought by a specific small group of people.

And saying that other factions would sell just as well, if only GW focused on them more, is funny. non marine armies had more OP rules and for longer in 8th ed, and from what people say it was the same in other editions too. yet they never reached the sells marines had. And from stories I heard sometimes it was really easy to build xeno armies. Multiple riptides and some chaff. Multiple jetbikes and eldar tanks. Everything in plastic, and if you really need something not in plastic you can buy resin models from recasters for much cheaper then what GW asks for their stuff.

In terms of models, a sizable portion, even for the chapters I think need their own book, are only different in terms of paint.

We don't know how well the others would do. What we do know though, is that they aren't selling well now because of their neglect. And I should point out, Marines were being pushed heavily back in 3rd edition. Your stories are incorrect. Marines have long been the easiest army to build. Cheapest too.

SemperMortis wrote:
[
But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition.

2e. Imperial Guard. And I'm NOT counting the fact that there were 5 different regiments sculpted.

ccs wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
[
But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition.

2e. Imperial Guard. And I'm NOT counting the fact that there were 5 different regiments sculpted.

So back in 1993 GW released more new Imperial Guard kits than they did for Space Marines. Can you prove that? there used to be a website that had a rough list of all units released per edition but I can't find it now.

But even taking that at face value, you are saying GW tried it 28ish years ago

Tycho wrote:

Technically dark eldar only had units cut from our codex since 5th. We lost trueborn, bloodbrides and like 4 to 5 special characters they didn't bother to even make a model for. It's gotten so bad I was thinking about switching to genestealer cult or admech and I heard gsc are also currently low tier. That said gsc and admech at least keep getting new models. I just want a unit to be excited about again. The new lelith model actually looks worse than the old one and they got rid of the awesome praying Mantis pose of drazhar that was so iconic. Vect? He hasn't been around for ages if he ever was. Meanwhile imperial guard and tau have tank commanders and super heavies and marines get a freaking primarch. Forge world is no different. Dark eldar have just 2 models....

That's the thing that really kills me. Vect had a model! Yeah, it had semi-NSFW female slave models on it that really needed to go, but they couldn't just pull the model for a time, get rid of that part and re-release him? The main leader of a major faction who actually has a strat named after him and HAD a model, is no longer part of the codex ...

And that Vect was unusable in the 5th ed DE codex (save for maybe representing his personal Raider). Vect in the 5th ed DE codex was on foot, with a whole new array of weapons.

Vect on a throne was retired by GW because they retired the old raider. The same happened to a few ork characters from 2nd edition when GW launched a new line of models for the greenskins as the gorkamorka vibe didn't match the new models aesthetics.

Vect on foot never had a model instead, just like all the other special characters that disappeared through editions.

DE are the pioneers of the no model no rule madness. Orks also lost several characters through editions. One of the most recent ones, Grukk Face-Rippa, only lasted 1 year or so during 7th, then he was squatted and his model became a generic warboss. I don't think there's a another character that is that "young" and already retired .

 Blackie wrote:
Vect on a throne was retired by GW because they retired the old raider. The same happened to a few ork characters from 2nd edition when GW launched a new line of models for the greenskins as the gorkamorka vibe didn't match the new models aesthetics.

Vect on foot never had a model instead, just like all the other special characters that disappeared through editions.

DE are the pioneers of the no model no rule madness. Orks also lost several characters through editions. One of the most recent ones, Grukk Face-Rippa, only lasted 1 year or so during 7th, then he was squatted and his model became a generic warboss. I don't think there's a another character that is that "young" and already retired .

There was a period where they were debuting characters and gave them names in whatever campaign or WD booklet or whatever they were doing at the time, but they didn't stick. Skaven had something similar, and I believe there a space woof commander that was around for maybe five minutes. A few others too, but but they were about as memorable as whatever I had for dinner two weeks ago.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Yeah. I mean seriously, in terms of rules support my 30k non-marine armies feel better supported relative to marines than my 40k non-marine armies. And 30k is memed as the "marines only" game.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"

not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud

still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...

Yea, but they're only ever going to put so many models in a release window.

the model bit, i can understand, the rules though are a WHOLE other issue for a company with online logistics established... that one is just there to manufacture discontent and frustration i feel

That's what gets me. Not the models, the rules. Not everyone can have a massive model release, but everyone gets a codex. I can understand the delays for new codexes because of the current global situation, but nothing is stopping gw from fixing some stuff through FAQs and erratas, the same as they fixed For The Greater Good, and the loyalist chapters that were waiting on their new supplements.

Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books? Or why they can't throw a rules fix or two at Tau and GSC?

Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books? Or why they can't throw a rules fix or two at Tau and GSC?

It is super odd to me that they can't, at the very least, say "CSM/Rubrics/etc etc" now have 2 wounds and cost X/Y/Z".

EDIT:

In the case of your bog-standard CSM, I still think that second wound, when combined with the points increase, is actually ultimately going to make them worse (especially now that you have an army in the meta that doesn't care about D2 weapons), but the point still stands ... should be a quick easy fix right?

Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books?

Putting such a large errata would require GW to not only plan it 6 months in advance, but also agree that they did something wrong.

In terms of models, a sizable portion, even for the chapters I think need their own book, are only different in terms of paint.

Show me those SW wolf lords in landspeeders, wulfen ultramarines, WS death companies, DA sang guards or IH wolf ridders. They have different rules, unique characters, unique units etc. You can't have a biker apothecary outside of DA. But most important of all. All those space marines had their own book since twice and more my age. If for that long GW thinks they are a separate thing, then they are a separate thing.

We don't know how well the others would do.

But we do. Marines were almost never in a 2.0 8th ed codex state. Other armies were better, and were plastic. Yet they never outsold marines. If they did we would be seeing 2-3 tau books. Eldar probably are closest to that, but considering the rule set they get, they have to have a man on the inside, because there is no way in hell an army gets a broken codex each time it gets on. And it still doesn't outsell marines.

This is again the old vegen "meat" argument. Never tried, but if only we replaced normal meat with it, and gave it the same support, it would clearly beat out meat sells. I think not. Not everything has to be tested to know that it does not work. I don't have to eat glass to know it is not a good thing to eat.

Cheapest too.

You could buy 30 recast dark reapers for less then a quarter of ID box. And that is assuming asking for it to be send by post, and not just going to the guy and picking them up yourself. Plastic scatter bikes or weaven serpents weren't , I assume, supper hard to get either. Neither were, again I assume, those undercosted lord of war. And considering how many riptides are being sold, I think those were not that hard to get either.

I also have my doubts if the base of what was good in marine armies, were push fit tactical marine models. From what I heard the old marines required a lot of tanks, a lot of metal heavy and special weapons etc.

Ynnari got killed for more than a year. WD came out in may 2019, 9th edition came out in september. And again, not every eldar model was ran in the OP ynnari. I know you've got your head up your ass when it comes to pointy ears but they have more units than : shining spears, skyweavers, ravagers and dark reapers.

I don't think it is antomicaly possible to perform the thing you say, without killing oneself. And yes this means for those last few months eldar players had to return to playing their alaitoc lists. What a tragedy. How about you check how long they were good and could play Inari. Broken beyond everything, when they came out in 7th ed, broken through out all 8th till GW killed it. That is years of playing. Compare this to the few months IH players got with their 2.0 book, that supposably was killing w40k. And what is even more fun the Inari thing came after eldar having broken rule sets in 7th, pre Inari, and in 6th too. Now I did not play back then. But when a GW employee says that that may have slightly droped the ball on OP units, by undercosting them by 150-200pts, I find absolutly no understanding for the plight of eldar players. It in fact sound to me like those people sitting on milions, saying how bad they have it in their gigantic mensions.

Saying they are different armies is the same as saying that these Blue painted Orkz are a totally different army than these black painted orkz. Yeah they have a different name but they are the same models.

when blue, red and black orks start getting their exclusive models which make the base of their armies that would be the case. Again there is what 30+ years of history of those mariens having their separate books, and being treated by GW as separate things.

Eldar in 7th were great as well, but what new kits did they get? windriders, farseer on jetbike and a couple others...how well did those sell? incredibly well. So why didn't the army sell really well? because nobody wanted models older than they were, but the new ones sold really well. So GW made money on the models they did release, but not the army as a whole because they had few real updates. Those that did get updates and good rules sold really well.

I am not following your logic. Why would anyone want to buy bad units for an army, when the ones they can easily get make a great army already? I mean besides someone having some compulsive disorder to buy stuff or really being in to painting. But then you have china and russia, even my country. ton of professional recasters making models for cheaper and better then GW. Better molds too, and more resilient resin.

So The hardcore ork players bought a naught or two and maybe couple of mek gunz, but GW didn't really make any money because the army is hard to play, hard to build, expensive to build and the rules were garbage.

From what I have seen if people have those, then they have recasts. And they are actualy easier to get then 10+ boxs no store can order. And good luck to the person who orders it from a webstore.

But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition. Hell, sticking with 7th, how many releases did SM get compared to everyone else?

And again, if armies that had good or even better then sm rules, could not generate sales the same size as marines did. Even when marines had worse rules, then there is no need to check anything. It is already proven that they do not generate the same interest and there for sales.

That said, for the purposes of the model releases, a lot of the differences you are trying to call out don't really matter. Both of those armies can use Intercessors. Both of those armies can use Gladiators, both of those armies can use Aggressors, etc etc. You might have a point if we were complaining about guys on wolves (which ONLY SW can use) but that's not really the point being made. The fact is, GW has structured the Primaris stuff so that it fits with every chapter now.

Does anyone on this forum think, that when GW finishs their basic primaris reset, they are not going to make faction specific units? But hey maybe I am wrong, maybe in 5-6 years there is going to be one books with one marine rule set, and we aren't going to see RG eliminators or rule specific DA bladeguard.

Karol wrote:

In terms of models, a sizable portion, even for the chapters I think need their own book, are only different in terms of paint.

Show me those SW wolf lords in landspeeders, wulfen ultramarines, WS death companies, DA sang guards or IH wolf ridders. They have different rules, unique characters, unique units etc. You can't have a biker apothecary outside of DA. But most important of all. All those space marines had their own book since twice and more my age. If for that long GW thinks they are a separate thing, then they are a separate thing.

And now GW says that all Chapters, excepting GK, are just Supplements.

Moreover, how many unique units do SW have? Or BA? Or DA? Because they share at least 90 units.

Does anyone on this forum think, that when GW finishs their basic primaris reset, they are not going to make faction specific units? But hey maybe I am wrong, maybe in 5-6 years there is going to be one books with one marine rule set, and we aren't going to see RG eliminators or rule specific DA bladeguard.

Either you're not making sense with your argument here, or you don't get the argument many of us are making (or possibly I'm just misunderstanding you - equally possible).

People have stated that the irritation is that marines have seen an unprecedented string of releases going on over a year at this point. You appear to be trying to say that armies like SW/Templars aren't benefitting from this, but the simple fact its - that's not true. Excluding Grey Knights and possibly DW (I know less than nothing about DW) I can't think of a single Primaris release that SW/Templars, or any of the snowflake chapters are locked out from taking.

And yeah - to your point - it's possible SW may get "Lord Primaris Wolf of his Fenrisian Murder Howler Hover(but not fly) Wolf ". But if that happens, it kind of only continues to increase the problem at hand, rather than decrease it don't you think?

SW players - how many Wolf themed things do you have? All of them? sweet.

Now, everyone who's had the biggest and, (arguably) most important leader from your faction removed from your codex please stand up ... wait - what's that? Marines have had a Primarch ADDED to their codex? Right. You should probably sit down then.

So next check - Who here has both kids who can drink in the U.S. but are still younger than the sculpts in your armies -No no marines - sit down. This one's for Eldar/Guard ....

I could go on all day with these ...

EDIT:
An even better example - even the Marine apologists seem to be able to agree that the Primaris LT thing is just redundant and silly at this point. So, if we can agree that having a boatload of essentially meaningless variants of the exact same thing, for an army that wasn't even really hurting for ANYTHING in the first place is silly ... what do you make of DE finally getting a release and it's ... a new and worse Lilith Hesperax because ... reasons? No keradruahk, no Vect, no new Warrior kit - just - a resculpt of a character that absolutely did not need it. I don't play DE but that HAS to feel like a pretty giant middle finger for the people who do ...

Karol wrote:
...They have different rules, unique characters, unique units etc. You can't have a biker apothecary outside of DA...

Why?

Why can everyone take pistol/chainsword Primaris Troops, but only SW can take pistol/chainsword old-Marine Troops? Why can DA have biker command squads, but White Scars can't? Why do BA have inferno pistols/hand flamers, but Salamanders don't? Is it really balance, or uniqueness, or just a desire to not need to print alternate packaging?

Karol wrote:

Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books?

Putting such a large errata would require GW to not only plan it 6 months in advance, but also agree that they did something wrong.

They plan everything at least six months in advance. They've already said CSM and GK are getting a second (and third, in the case of terminators), so it's already planned, and it isn't a mistake.

Karol wrote:No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines.

Hi.

I'm a Marine player who says that all Marines, barring GK, are the same.