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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines.

Hi.

I'm a Marine player who says that all Marines, barring GK, are the same.

I'm a Marine (Deathwatch & Blood Angels) player who says that all of the special Marines should be the same rules-wise as Hawk Lords.

I'm also a Grey Knights player who says that most of the Grey Knights list shouldn't exist.

Tycho wrote:

Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books? Or why they can't throw a rules fix or two at Tau and GSC?

It is super odd to me that they can't, at the very least, say "CSM/Rubrics/etc etc" now have 2 wounds and cost X/Y/Z".

EDIT:

In the case of your bog-standard CSM, I still think that second wound, when combined with the points increase, is actually ultimately going to make them worse (especially now that you have an army in the meta that doesn't care about D2 weapons), but the point still stands ... should be a quick easy fix right?

If they see no other improvements other than the additional wound, and we don't get any good faction rules, you could be right. But I want to find out. I'm tired of the status quot. And even if it doesn't help bog standard CSM, I can't wait to see what it does for my Chosen, terminators, Warp Talons, and Raptors.

I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.

My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!

I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.

My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.

Tycho wrote:

Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books? Or why they can't throw a rules fix or two at Tau and GSC?

It is super odd to me that they can't, at the very least, say "CSM/Rubrics/etc etc" now have 2 wounds and cost X/Y/Z".

EDIT:

In the case of your bog-standard CSM, I still think that second wound, when combined with the points increase, is actually ultimately going to make them worse (especially now that you have an army in the meta that doesn't care about D2 weapons), but the point still stands ... should be a quick easy fix right?

Your edit stands. People would be upset that their CSM don't have improved traits and their abilities would be less effective. It wouldn't really solve many problems.

Without stacking negatives or opponent weapons that are D2 that butt up against a 5++ I just don't see a lot of gain.

I'm only asking as a Guard player for a reason to care, a reason to buy the new Codex. A codex I believe won't solve the issues my army faces. It will have the same models it had last edition and most likely only take things away possibly. I'll have to increasingly look to 3rd party manufacturers to the point where there'll be more 3rd Party than 1st for models.

All I'm asking is to throw a dog a bone, something with a little meat on it. Some special limited edition character everyonce in awhile that I have no chance of getting and isn't even a named unique unit is pretty bare bones and not something I'm excited for in the slightest.

I mean.. All of the problems would have been solved if everyone just did what GW wants and is been trying to subtly tell us for the last 3 years. Just play marines. Wouldin't that be great? We could all have new models all of the time.

Blue models.
Green models
Silver models.
Black models.
All of the time. All colours of the rainbow. All the same.
Just think. Wouldint it be great? Guys? Guyyys? Guuuuys!?

So at this point, can we at least all agree that the premise in the thread title is wrong?

 Argive wrote:
I mean.. All of the problems would have been solved if everyone just did what GW wants and is been trying to subtly tell us for the last 3 years. Just play marines. Wouldin't that be great? We could all have new models all of the time.

Blue models.
Green models
Silver models.
Black models.
All of the time. All colours of the rainbow. All the same.
Just think. Wouldint it be great? Guys? Guyyys? Guuuuys!?

Can't we just play 30k at that point? It's still only different shades of Marines but at least there I can still build units that do what I want instead of being nailed to what GW could be bothered to squeeze onto one sprue. Also Guilliman's face is less squished there and Magnus doesn't have nipple-horns.

Tycho wrote:
So at this point, can we at least all agree that the premise in the thread title is wrong?

I don't wish to be uncharitable, but with a title that inflammatory, I'm not sure that argument in its favor would be done in good faith.

The marines get more than any other faction, more strategies, more buffs, more special rules, moiré strats..... of course there's resentment.

 Matt Swain wrote:
The marines get more than any other faction, more strategies, more buffs, more special rules, moiré strats..... of course there's resentment.

How dare you point things and facts out.
You just sound like a marine hater

 waefre_1 wrote:

Tycho wrote:
So at this point, can we at least all agree that the premise in the thread title is wrong?

I don't wish to be uncharitable, but with a title that inflammatory, I'm not sure that argument in its favor would be done in good faith.

Isn't it almost a tautology though?

Marines are popular. They get more kits. People hate them for that, but like....really hate them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 waefre_1 wrote:

Tycho wrote:
So at this point, can we at least all agree that the premise in the thread title is wrong?

I don't wish to be uncharitable, but with a title that inflammatory, I'm not sure that argument in its favor would be done in good faith.

Isn't it almost a tautology though?

Marines are popular. They get more kits. People hate them for that, but like....really hate them.

How is that a tautology?

 Don Savik wrote:
I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.

My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!

I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.

My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.

Man, your roomates a dick for not letting you play with your custom converted warboss.

ccs wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.

My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!

I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.

My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.

Man, your roomates a dick for not letting you play with your custom converted warboss.

^ that. the Ork warboss in Megaarmor has been moved to legends yes, but that shouldn't be an issue at all. "for fun games with your room mate" is literally the intent of legends.

BrianDavion wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.

My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!

I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.

My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.

Man, your roomates a dick for not letting you play with your custom converted warboss.

^ that. the Ork warboss in Megaarmor has been moved to legends yes, but that shouldn't be an issue at all. "for fun games with your room mate" is literally the intent of legends.

Ok well my friends are fine with it, lol. I should've clarified. But pre-covid I did like playing at stores. I guess I'm just annoyed about the direction going forward. I guess I'm dreading having to have a large list of house rules in the future.

 Don Savik wrote:
I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.

My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!

I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.

My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.

Stopping playing GW games is the only way, honestly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, honestly at this point OP needs to respond or the mods should just delete the thread. No point. Everyone sane, except for the bad faith arguers like Karol, knows what's up.

 Don Savik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.

My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!

I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.

My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.

Man, your roomates a dick for not letting you play with your custom converted warboss.

^ that. the Ork warboss in Megaarmor has been moved to legends yes, but that shouldn't be an issue at all. "for fun games with your room mate" is literally the intent of legends.

Ok well my friends are fine with it, lol. I should've clarified. But pre-covid I did like playing at stores. I guess I'm just annoyed about the direction going forward. I guess I'm dreading having to have a large list of house rules in the future.

even store games Honestly I'd not care if someone wanted to use a legends item myself. It's not like legends if filled with a buncha massivly OP options or anything.

Why does Legends exist? And why do some things not get put in Legends?

Karol wrote:

But we do. Marines were almost never in a 2.0 8th ed codex state. Other armies were better, and were plastic. Yet they never outsold marines. If they did we would be seeing 2-3 tau books. Eldar probably are closest to that, but considering the rule set they get, they have to have a man on the inside, because there is no way in hell an army gets a broken codex each time it gets on. And it still doesn't outsell marines.

This is again the old vegen "meat" argument. Never tried, but if only we replaced normal meat with it, and gave it the same support, it would clearly beat out meat sells. I think not. Not everything has to be tested to know that it does not work. I don't have to eat glass to know it is not a good thing to eat.

In fact we don't. Give a faction, any faction, a cycle of 20-30 new plastic releases and a strong codex. They'll probably outsell marines then.

The vegan meat argument is (another) bad example. Make it a real competitor to meat: I mean make it cheaper and with better taste and it'll probably outsell meat. As long as it's more expensive than meat it'll never outsell it. The process of making veggie food is more expensive than producing meat, that's why veggie stuff is currently a niche. It's really the only reason.

Just like armies: if a faction gets both a solid codex and a massive cycle of new releases it'll probably sell a lot. Let SM collect dust for a couple of years (like the majority of the current armies) and that faction will definitely outsell marines, and not by a small margin.

 Da Boss wrote:
Why does Legends exist? And why do some things not get put in Legends?

for gw to be able to throw stuff that isn't marines under the bus so that it can produce more marines whilest also having good PR by offering a final version that you can use for the models which were often not cheap, in order to no piss off their customers of these specific units/ models.

sadly Gw did the rules in there in an even worse fashion then gw allready does them so the chances for anyone even seeing f.e. R&H as R&H is basically 0...

Hecaton wrote:


Stopping playing GW games is the only way, honestly.

Stopping playing GW games COMPETITIVELY could be an excellent way, actually.

Tycho wrote:

An even better example - even the Marine apologists seem to be able to agree that the Primaris LT thing is just redundant and silly at this point. So, if we can agree that having a boatload of essentially meaningless variants of the exact same thing, for an army that wasn't even really hurting for ANYTHING in the first place is silly ... what do you make of DE finally getting a release and it's ... a new and worse Lilith Hesperax because ... reasons? No keradruahk, no Vect, no new Warrior kit - just - a resculpt of a character that absolutely did not need it. I don't play DE but that HAS to feel like a pretty giant middle finger for the people who do ...

Can confirm.

SemperMortis wrote:

ccs wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
[
But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition.

2e. Imperial Guard. And I'm NOT counting the fact that there were 5 different regiments sculpted.

So back in 1993 GW released more new Imperial Guard kits than they did for Space Marines. Can you prove that? there used to be a website that had a rough list of all units released per edition but I can't find it now.

But even taking that at face value, you are saying GW tried it 28ish years ago

Yeah, to be clear, the claim here is that when I, a grown man with gray hairs, a 401k, a mortgage, and a kid on the way, was ONE

GW focused on a faction other than space marines.

I think it would take more than models for other lines to catch up to Marines across the playerbase.
Fluff, even the entire setting in general, is geared towards Space Marines are the big awesome heroes.

Kabalite Warriors are still as perfect as the day the kit came out...

But yes. I feel safe in saying Marines are the most popular faction because they've been in every starter set for the last 28 years (I'm guessing in Rogue Trader too but it predates my knowledge of the game.)

I think in the 90s and much of the 2000s Orks were by far the second most played faction. You saw them in stores, you saw them in White Dwarf etc etc. It turns out however that if you then run the faction into the ground and make it difficult/impossible to buy HQ choices, its popularity wanes. (I can't remember the internet drama, but wasn't there some outrage a couple of years ago that GW claimed they didn't have 4k of Ork models painted?)

By contrast CWE models may be old enough to drink hahaha (still great though) - but so long as Eldar were top tier or thereabouts, they remained second only to SM in terms of popularity. Its only times like now (and in Index era 8th, and for about half of fifth edition) where they've sucked and seemed to disappear.

As a Custodes player, I would gladly let my faction get passed over if it meant Eldar got a new set of sculpts or models. My faction shouldn't even exist, and I want to see more diversity in the armies available to play in the game. 14 different flavors of Power Armor are boring, and I want to see more interesting Eldar/Nid armies, than another 4-5 GTs with the same Astartes armies winning out every time.

I tried to look at legends to figure out the ratio of marine stuff going to legends vs. other factions, but I looked at DE first, an army that has lost loads of options, and noticed that only two of those options are available any more in legends.

So...I guess there's no point? There's also the point that the marine range is so bloody huge that losing one kit represents a much smaller % than losing a kit for a smaller range like DE.

Tyel wrote:

I think in the 90s and much of the 2000s Orks were by far the second most played faction. You saw them in stores, you saw them in White Dwarf etc etc. It turns out however that if you then run the faction into the ground and make it difficult/impossible to buy HQ choices, its popularity wanes. (I can't remember the internet drama, but wasn't there some outrage a couple of years ago that GW claimed they didn't have 4k of Ork models painted?)

Yeah, I started collecting orks exactly in that period as a kid; before that I just painted random models. After 2nd edition Orks got a huge new line of models and a fairly competitive codex. Proof that enhancing a faction with good rules and tons of new stuff makes that faction just as popular as SM .

I think it would take more than models for other lines to catch up to Marines across the playerbase.
Fluff, even the entire setting in general, is geared towards Space Marines are the big awesome heroes.

I don't know that anyone thinks the other factions need to "catch up" per-say. At this point that would nearly impossible. It's more like, where other armies have the goal of being brought out of the '90s, the marines are living in 3077. You're never going to catch up at this point, but if the other factions could at least stop being outright ignored, I think everyone would be happy.

Yeah, honestly at this point OP needs to respond or the mods should just delete the thread. No point. Everyone sane, except for the bad faith arguers like Karol, knows what's up.

Lock it maybe, but don't delete it. The fact that we've managed to generate as many pages as we have without a lock happening is a small miracle. Would be a shame to just delete that. I say lock it now while we're ahead, and make it a sticky so we don't need to do this again in two weeks.