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So this thread comes from this exchange in a different thread:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Well, that and the frankly baffling lack of an Invulnerable Save

The lack of Quantum Shielding is baffling.

24W T8 2+ is a pretty durable statline. What I think when I look at a Monolith is "lack of firepower". It doesn't have much gun compared to other similar LoWs. Even with the four Death Rays. My Achilles can outshoot it, and it isn't even a LoW.

Whilst not being up on the modern game, I’d definitely trade number of shots for the reliability of damage.

I mean, if my 4 Deathrays all do unsaved damage, it’s a minimum of 16 (which I understand would take out most non-superheavies). Particle whip only adds to the party. Plus it’s surprisingly handy in HTH (not that I’d ever factor charging with it into a plan. Though it might be good for a giggle. 6 S8, -3, D3 auto-hit attacks can do some serious damage to the unsuspecting. And I would be screaming “get in the back of the van” whilst doing so. Because.)

Not sure what the Achilles’ minimum is I’m afraid, but there remains the chance of a bunch of ones ruining an otherwise stellar shooting phase.

The reliability is also seen across the Necron army, with relatively few doing entirely variable damage (as in just D3 or just D6). In the later stages of the game, I could be dropping in a Death Ray Monolith to mop up multiple things which I’ve battered with the rest of my army.

In summary? I’ll freely admit I don’t really know what I’m talking about, and welcome any and all critique (reckon I’ll do a separate thread though) , it seems to me the strength of the Monolith lies beyond its straight forward snootiness?

As AnomanderRake pointed out, it basically gets stuck in the LoW slot because it has 20+ wounds, which seems to be gw's definition of LoW for anything that isn't a character (if there's any non-chararacter LoW in the game with less than 20W, please correct me).

With its ability to deep strike and "transport" role (yes, I know it works different, but it's similar), the LoW I'd most closely compare it to is the Karybdis Assault Claw. Similar shooting, melee capability, but it's transport and deep strike capabilities is what you're paying for.

So yes, as Daed pointed out, its strength isn't about straight shootiness, but about pumping all those great Necron troops out. I'd definitely take it out for a spin. Sounds like fun.

Not wanting to derail the other thread, I thought I'd open a new here.

So, IMO, Daedalus hits solidly on why it's not very good IMO. If you are going to take advantage of its ability to pump those troops out, you have to start with a significant amount of your troops off the board. You then have to either deepstrike the Monolith in, or move it upfield to the place/places you want to deploy your silver tide.

So let's look at it -

Deepstrike? Eh? Maybe? It's crazy easy to zone out. Given its size combined with the amount of terrain on the board in 9th, you may well find yourself unable to deploy a significant amount of your army (seen it happen. Many times. It's just too easy imo). It also requires you to keep a large number of points off the board for a turn or two. This seems like a loosing proposition in an edition where "come from behind" type wins are difficult and rare.

Move it upfield? Good luck. It doesn't have fly, and again, it's going to be so easy to move block it (speaking form more than just "theory hammer" here, although admittedly this is still anecdotal from about 15 games so, not exactly statistically significant either).

The other issue here is that Warriors, the unit you're goin g to want to "pump out loads of", do nothing better than advance upfield, and sit on objectives. They are absurdly good at this, and between things like the NS and Night Scythes, they aren't exactly hurting for ways to put troops on the right spot at the right moment, which, to me, just seems like a much better way to use them then launching a bunch out of the portal an a very large, slow moving, and surprisingly easy to kill target.

Not super psyched on it's offensive stats either (in relation to points paid). I feel like this unit is like several in the Necron codex where, sure, it's got some cool tricks but, see these guys? These guys over here do the same thing. But better. Also cheaper. They do the same thing, but better and cheaper. In a book rife with "nuance" (which I am only using semi-sarcastically here), I think the Monolith falls victim to the fact that the rest of its codex is much more capable than it.

So, that's it. Change my mind. Please. Because I'd love to use it, but theory hammer, real world experience, and many watched battle reports and online breakdowns tell me that the main use for it is as a "funsies lol" type deal. Which is fine, I do use those types of units often, but I'd love to see a real competitive answer for bringing it. As my own posting history indicates, my IQ is somewhere south of genius, so please poke holes in my statements, and burn them to the ground so that a useable strategy for a competitive monolith may rise from the ashes ... or ... yeah ...

Well, if you're looking for someone to argue that it's "competitive", count me out. Like I said, it sounds "fun". Definitely don't think they'll be burning up the tournament scene. But could be fun, especially for an Onslaught points level game.

It isn't even good if you're looking at a "fun" game hahaha

Monoliths are a giant $150 box that costs you CP to field. It's very not worth it before you even get to the rules, not sure I can help change your mind on this one.

What GW did to Monoliths was a tragedy, especially for those of us who own lots of them and used to use them as a kind of Necron Land Raider.

They shouldn't be super-heavies.

Monoliths are not worth it. Change my mind ...

Nope. You've said nothing even vaguely controversial.
GW torpedoed a brand new kit (and a classic signature concept of the army) in every way they possibly could have.

H.B.M.C. wrote:What GW did to Monoliths was a tragedy, especially for those of us who own lots of them and used to use them as a kind of Necron Land Raider.

They shouldn't be super-heavies.

No, they shouldn't be. They should have kept their wounds below the LoW threshold and kept them as heavy support, like Hierodules and Gorkonauts/Morkonauts. Don't understand why they wanted to make them LoWs.

AnomanderRake wrote:Monoliths are a giant $150 box that costs you CP to field. It's very not worth it before you even get to the rules, not sure I can help change your mind on this one.

The costing CP to field thing is a problem I can understand.

What actually kills Monoliths is the lack of FLY. It's on a giant 160mm base so on plenty of boards its options for movement or deepstrike are severely curtailed by this which becomes an even bigger problem when you consider its role as an assault transport vehicle.

What's extra weird is every single other Necron vehicle and LoW kept FLY and Monoliths themselves canonically are capable of flight. This isn't like the Primaris vehicles where lorewise they're not even proper anti-grav and the rules as-is don't really support hover vehicles properly.

Just a bizarre change all round.

A baffling bit of rules writing in an otherwise well thought out book. It does do something different in the army, but at some enormous cost (esp. the CP). A real shame.

Whilst I’ve not battlefield experience, I stand by my quoted comment in the OP.

To my eyes, it’s a big old hunk of laser love.

Yes being a LoW is limiting, and the lack of an invulnerable save is, well, baffling.

But I still see a place for it in my list.

I can keep it in reserve for a turn, helping to avoid first turn wipe out (which, to a certain mindset partially offsets the lack of an invulnerable save), and letting it get, in theory, a beneficial placement.

Turn after that, provided it’s not been nuked in short order? For a few CP, I can pull three units out of its hat. Two from reserves, one from anywhere on the field. Combine that with Gauss Reaper Warriors, and I could, in the right circumstances gut a portion of the board. Especially if I’ve already partially bashed up your units.

A big plus here is that if people don’t face them terribly often, they may not be prepared for such shenanigans.

The other main downsides? It’s a chunk of points, and a CP drain just to field it. And the rest of your list ideally should be built around it.

But to me it not being a “no-brainer” selection is part of the appeal. A way for me to better understand the game, and get good (note this is not a criticism of those who prefer solidly reliable lists etc) in a way my opponent may not see coming. Well, at least not the first time.

Though I definitely won’t be using the Gauss Arrays. Just give me my Death Rays and walk slowly away

I'm just sad I didn't know the old Monolith was going out of production, I would have gotten one! The new one is just way too pricey for essentially a big block.

It’s a far superior model, if that helps, and really quite hefty.

It’s also well designed for painting in sub-assemblies. On my second, I’ll definitely be leaving bits unglued for painting.

Why would we want to change your mind of a objective truth?

The new Monolith is smaller than the old Monolith, and costs more.

What actually kills Monoliths is the lack of FLY. It's on a giant 160mm base so on plenty of boards its options for movement or deepstrike are severely curtailed by this which becomes an even bigger problem when you consider its role as an assault transport vehicle.

What's extra weird is every single other Necron vehicle and LoW kept FLY and Monoliths themselves canonically are capable of flight. This isn't like the Primaris vehicles where lorewise they're not even proper anti-grav and the rules as-is don't really support hover vehicles properly.

Just a bizarre change all round.

This is one of the things hurting it the most imo. When our group was trying to make it work, there were so many times it would have made a real difference in the game ...if only it could get to right ... THERE. But it couldn't because it was either move-blocked by other units, or terrain was in the way and the only way for it to get to that spot was to have "FLY" ...

Not saying giving it fly would fix everything, but man, it would go a long long way towards making it more useful.

I can keep it in reserve for a turn, helping to avoid first turn wipe out (which, to a certain mindset partially offsets the lack of an invulnerable save), and letting it get, in theory, a beneficial placement.

Turn after that, provided it’s not been nuked in short order? For a few CP, I can pull three units out of its hat. Two from reserves, one from anywhere on the field. Combine that with Gauss Reaper Warriors, and I could, in the right circumstances gut a portion of the board. Especially if I’ve already partially bashed up your units

Taking a unit because you like it and want to use it is always cool. It's why I take the Hexmark and Plasmancer. They are both pretty terrible, especially considering other options you could take in their place, but I really like the models, so in the list they go, even if it does make the list a little weaker.

That said, regarding your quote here, see my quote above. Without Fly, the darn thing is just a brick most of the time. Theoretically, it should be great at what you listed. It's sturdy enough to generally survive that turn it comes on, and should be able to get those troops teleported. Problem is, in reality, you're almost always dropping them out in places you didn't want them.

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen any of the classic Dakka contrarionism emerge here. I figured at least one person would muster a "for" argument. How bad must it be if we all generally agree?

So let's try this - if it gets Fly, and drops to say, 16 wounds (along with an appropriate price adjustment), does it become viable at that point?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The new Monolith is smaller than the old Monolith, and costs more.

Is it? Dang. The polygonal sphere and the wraith make me week in the knees. Though smaller is probably better for gameplay.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm just sad I didn't know the old Monolith was going out of production, I would have gotten one! The new one is just way too pricey for essentially a big block.

I'm sure you can pick up an old one at a reasonable price on EBAY any day you like.

Is it? Dang. The polygonal sphere and the wraith make me week in the knees. Though smaller is probably better for gameplay.

It is definitely smaller. It is still too big for 9th ed game play imo. Fly would help. Although, if your tables regularly have less terrain than what you might see on an "ideal" 9th ed table, and if you regularly play smaller, "elite" armies like Custodes who will have a harder time move blocking you, it's probably fine in terms of size.

Love my (old model) monolith . . . in Apocalypse. Nice ranged weapons, armor save, number of wounds, fly, and ability to deep strike and deploy a reserve unit Turn 1.

In 8th/9th 40k? It's garbage and a sad reminder of what it was in earlier editions. It used to be an icon of a large Necron army, like a Land Raider for Space Marines.

Glad I mainly play Apocalypse and older editions now . . .

It has a lot of rules you will probably never use. However - you will use it's 6 auto hitting melee attacks with str 8 ap-3 flat 3 damage. You will utilize its 24 wounds t8 2+ save. You will Utilize it's firepower - which is substantial (pretty much worth 2 DDA main cannons). Taking 1 isn't that big of an issue on CP. You can take 3 or 2 SK with enough points left over to include a solid number of troops.

It can deep strike (which is huge) so unlike most LOW who have to spend CP to hide - Monolith can do it for free.

Yeah.

Firepower wise is strikes me as solid and reliable. Whilst it may not have as much raw firepower as others in its LoW field? You’re heavily insulated from dice betrayal.

Again, factor in buff bubbles and CP expenditure related boosts, and you can confidently tackle a variety of targets.

Plus, given how the Portal of Exile works in fluff terms, it’s like a really nasty Roomba or Dyson, clearing up your enemy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah.

Firepower wise is strikes me as solid and reliable. Whilst it may not have as much raw firepower as others in its LoW field? You’re heavily insulated from dice betrayal.

Again, factor in buff bubbles and CP expenditure related boosts, and you can confidently tackle a variety of targets.

Plus, given how the Portal of Exile works in fluff terms, it’s like a really nasty Roomba or Dyson, clearing up your enemy.

The one thing that is has going is probably the deepstrike. When you look at 9th edition lists a lot of what you face is medium range anti-tank and melee.

What in the world wants to get into a fist fight with a monolith? It'd kill 3 aggressors without blinking and they'd do maybe 4 wounds (unsupported). If you could drop it and neuter scary anti-tank then it might have a chance.

Also forgive my ignorance as I don't really use super-heavies - what is preventing a Monolith from having a dynasty benefit?

Isn't it another detatchment on its own, and it can't be a warlord, so it shouldn't be getting any rules , just like a baneblade in IG or a adeptus knight?

Karol wrote:
Isn't it another detatchment on its own, and it can't be a warlord, so it shouldn't be getting any rules , just like a baneblade in IG or a adeptus knight?

I checked the super heavy detachment - nothing there. There are restrictions on Dynasties for Dynastic Agents and C'Tan of which the Monolith is neither. I must be missing something?

I think Karol is referring to the rule about Detachment Abilities not applying to Super-heavy Auxiliary detatchments (see pg 58 of the mini-rulebook, or about a page before wherever the detatchment types are listed in the big book.)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't even good if you're looking at a "fun" game hahaha

something doesnt need to be good for it to be fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:
I think Karol is referring to the rule about Detachment Abilities not applying to Super-heavy Auxiliary detatchments (see pg 58 of the mini-rulebook, or about a page before wherever the detatchment types are listed in the big book.)

yeah, one of the 2 reason why LoW suck in 9th.

Paying CP for them AND losing your subfaction bonuses for them is completely stupid

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Isn't it another detatchment on its own, and it can't be a warlord, so it shouldn't be getting any rules , just like a baneblade in IG or a adeptus knight?

I checked the super heavy detachment - nothing there. There are restrictions on Dynasties for Dynastic Agents and C'Tan of which the Monolith is neither. I must be missing something?

Units in Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments don't get faction/subfaction traits, even if they're from the same faction/subfaction as the rest of your army. Guard can give them to a LOW in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment with the Tank Ace strategem, but no one else can, to my knowledge. Add that to the 3CP price for the SHAD in the first place, and it looks like gw doesn't want anyone using their LOWs unless it's an entire army of them.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Isn't it another detatchment on its own, and it can't be a warlord, so it shouldn't be getting any rules , just like a baneblade in IG or a adeptus knight?

I checked the super heavy detachment - nothing there. There are restrictions on Dynasties for Dynastic Agents and C'Tan of which the Monolith is neither. I must be missing something?

Units in Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments don't get faction/subfaction traits, even if they're from the same faction/subfaction as the rest of your army. Guard can give them to a LOW in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment with the Tank Ace strategem, but no one else can, to my knowledge. Add that to the 3CP price for the SHAD in the first place, and it looks like gw doesn't want anyone using their LOWs unless it's an entire army of them.

That's what I had recalled, but I couldn't find the damn rule.

If monoliths were allowed to pick up 5+++ vs MW and reroll a wound on top of the double heal they'd be pretty scary so you'd need 3 or SK and 2 like someone else mentioned, which kind of makes the list too boring for my tastes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

That's what I had recalled, but I couldn't find the damn rule.

Bottom of page 246 I think, under the 'Detachment Abilities' heading.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

That's what I had recalled, but I couldn't find the damn rule.

Bottom of page 246 I think, under the 'Detachment Abilities' heading.

There we go. Picked a bad day to quite caffeine cold turkey.