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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

To be fair that is very Chaos to try and sneak in and conquer without others realising only then to rise up with overwhelming force.

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Terrifying Doombull




 Overread wrote:
To be fair that is very Chaos to try and sneak in and conquer without others realising only then to rise up with overwhelming force.


Sure? And the cults are sort of trying to model that (I think). But it seems better to forgo that aspect as well and just crush your immediate neighbor without setting up cults in the next neighbor, lest you trigger a war where enemy lords start swarming your position from wherever they are on the map. Keep the fog of war absolute for as long as possible, as zero contact to 'encountered' changes AI behavior massively.

That still happens in ME Chaos campaigns in TW2 (just finished one, in fact), where suddenly Karl Franz and two buddies are suddenly elbow deep in Bretonnia or Kislev just to get your main army despite the fact that you've never been in Empire territory at all yet, the five other wars they're fighting, and they have absolutely no line of sight to your position, because they don't have any actual alliances. Best to avoid.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Seems like a better well thought out WoC with some BoC mechanics.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




When are they going to talk about Norsca and Warriors of Chaos?

IMO, WOC should become Chaos Undivided essentially and have access to some demons, but as secondary units. Same deal with the respective Chaos factions. They have mortals, but as secondary units. In both cases the secondary units can fill vital roles for the faction, but lack the redline buff potential from their primary faction.

Norsca should be turned into Tribes of Chaos or Northman with a focus likely on Norsca (ofc), Kurgan, and maybe the Hung. At a minimum have a generic lord type for each of the tribes that buffs that specific tribes playstyle. Norsca should shift focus to being more of a maritime threat, possibly with ship building. The Kurgan would be more focused on cavalry and possibly have horde options. The Hung are too similar to the Kurgan (nomadic horsemen) for them to really have a distinctive playstyle. I think maybe a Fimir generic lord would work better. That way you have three lord types that buff the three core types units that Norsca currently has in game. Norsca lord would be Marauders and possibly Skin Wolves. Kurgan would be cavalry, mammoths, and possibly chariots. Fimir would be trolls, Fimir, and giants. Also maybe add in a Kurgan hero that specializes as a duelist.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

trexmeyer wrote:
When are they going to talk about Norsca and Warriors of Chaos?
During this preview cycle? Likely not at all.

They've still got to show us:

1. Nurgle reveal.
2. Nurgle unit roster.
3. Nurgle mechanics.
4. Slaanesh reveal.
5. Slaanesh unit roster.
6. Slaanesh mechanics.
7. Pre-Order Race (probably Ogres) reveal.
8. Pre-Order Race unit roster.
9. Pre-Order Race campaign mechanics.
10. Cathay LL mechanics.
12. Kislev LL Cathay mechanics.
13. 4 Chaos Daemons LL mechanics.
14. Whomever the 5th Chaos LL is mechanics (probably Be'lakor).
15. Pre-Order Race LL campaign mechanics.
16. Any other new mechanics coming to TWW3 (be it how Corruption now works, more information on Sieges, supply lines, any changes to diplomacy, etc.).
17. What the actual plot of the game is (ie. what's the Vortex campaign of this game).
18. Overall campaign mechanics.
19. More detailed look at the set-piece battles in the Chaos Wastes.
20. The TWW3 map.

And given the way CA has been drip feeding this stuff, that could take a while. Norsca, IIRC, is getting the first rework come the Immortal Empires campaign (or whatever the full map campaign is called), so chances are when they reveal that, which won't be until after the game is out, then we might see the Norsca stuff.

Or they could pivot to Norsca tomorrow. I doubt it, but who knows?

As for Warriors of Chaos? Chances are their rework has been factored into the designs of the mono-God Chaos factions, so we could see an expansion of the Marked LLs for them (Valkia The Bloody, Egrimm Van Horstmann, Arbaal the Undefeated - whatever mortal Lords they decide to give us).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 10:10:52


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Executing Exarch




Yeah, I wouldn't expect to see anything about reworks yet. The focus right now is on the brand-new stuff that will be available in the new game. This is the content that will get you to buy TWWH3. WoC and Norsca reworks will - by necessity - not require the new game, and anyone who owns the first game DLCs will get them (probably for free, unless a WoC DLC drops, similar to the ones that the Wood Elves and Beastmen got).

So, the focus is exclusively on the new content for now.
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Get Tzeentch'd!

That's a full roster reveal:

Legendary Lord:
Kairos Fateweaver

Lords:
Exalted Lord of Change
Herald of Tzeentch

Heroes:
Cultist of Tzeentch
Iridescent Horror

Infantry:
Blue Horrors
Tzeentch Forsaken
Pink Horrors
Exalted Pink Horrors

Cavalry:
Tzeentch Chaos Knights
Doom Knights (Chosen on Discs)
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

Monsters/Beasts:
Tzeentch Furies
Screamers
Tzeentch Spawn
Lord of Change
Flamers of Tzeentch
Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch
Soul Grinder


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Some Tzeentch videos...





   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Apparently WH3 is capping WoM reserves at 100. Why? It's a fething single player game. Why nerf fun?

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Probably because armies like Tzeentch will have a lot of magic users in general and if they have too much power from the Winds of Magic, they could end up using so many powers at once that they'd be overpowered.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




And does that matter in singleplayer? The only AI I've seen that doesn't completely waste magic is Malekith using Bladewind surprisingly effectively.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I mean yes yes it does

And besides there is a modestly active multiplayer scene too.


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Terrifying Doombull




And a great deal of the balancing comes off the back of the multiplayer scene. For good or ill, CA is more responsive to balance issues from their stable of youtubers, streamers and mini-tournament players.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Can you even increase your WoM reserves for multiplayer?

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I'm sure there's mods which can do it.

A Blog in Miniature

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Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Overread wrote:
Probably because armies like Tzeentch will have a lot of magic users in general and if they have too much power from the Winds of Magic, they could end up using so many powers at once that they'd be overpowered.


100 is pretty low for a cap, unless they're redoing how much power you need. I just checked one of my campaigns and without trying to cheese it by turn 90 I have several vampire armies in the range of 100-150 reserves. That's without spamming magic reserve boosts in armies that aren't spamming wizards.

I'm not a fan of hard caps like this, hopefully it works out with whatever other changes they're making, but diminishing returns on investment make more sense than hard caps if balance is an issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
And a great deal of the balancing comes off the back of the multiplayer scene. For good or ill, CA is more responsive to balance issues from their stable of youtubers, streamers and mini-tournament players.


What's good for multiplayer isn't necessarily good for single player though. In single player you want to let people make their absurd armies so people can live out their silly dreams.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/30 12:53:48


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

In a sense don't forget there's also Lab mode which I assume will carry over into Warhammer 3

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 Overread wrote:
In a sense don't forget there's also Lab mode which I assume will carry over into Warhammer 3


TBH I never spent any time in laboratory mode, I don't think that works in campaign though?
   
Made in us
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
And a great deal of the balancing comes off the back of the multiplayer scene. For good or ill, CA is more responsive to balance issues from their stable of youtubers, streamers and mini-tournament players.


What's good for multiplayer isn't necessarily good for single player though.


Sure? I have no argument with that.
But that doesn't change the fact that most of CA's balancing comes from watching their multiplayer stable of streamers, and listening to their issues with the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/30 23:37:08


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
And a great deal of the balancing comes off the back of the multiplayer scene. For good or ill, CA is more responsive to balance issues from their stable of youtubers, streamers and mini-tournament players.


What's good for multiplayer isn't necessarily good for single player though.


Sure? I have no argument with that.
But that doesn't change the fact that most of CA's balancing comes from watching their multiplayer stable of streamers, and listening to their issues with the game.


Doesn't multiplayer have different balancing anyway though?

Honestly it'd seem a weird choice for CA to balance single player off the multiplayer streamer community, I always thought more people played single player than multiplayer anyway, and I thought the biggest TWW streamers were the ones who played single player (like lionheartx10 and LegendofTotalWar).

There have been issues that LegendofTotalWar has been bitching about for years and they still haven't fixed, and I think he's one of the most popular total war streamers.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
And a great deal of the balancing comes off the back of the multiplayer scene. For good or ill, CA is more responsive to balance issues from their stable of youtubers, streamers and mini-tournament players.


What's good for multiplayer isn't necessarily good for single player though.


Sure? I have no argument with that.
But that doesn't change the fact that most of CA's balancing comes from watching their multiplayer stable of streamers, and listening to their issues with the game.


Doesn't multiplayer have different balancing anyway though?

Honestly it'd seem a weird choice for CA to balance single player off the multiplayer streamer community, I always thought more people played single player than multiplayer anyway, and I thought the biggest TWW streamers were the ones who played single player (like lionheartx10 and LegendofTotalWar).

You're right. Singleplayer is much more common than multiplayer- you can see that in the achievement stats for TW2, where even playing a single individual multiplayer battle is something only 33% of players have done.
But that doesn't change anything.

Look into the Everchosen Invitational, which has been running for years. Turin, ItalianSpartacus, JanetonOccassion, the pool of handselected players (two months of qualifiers) and the various tournaments run by the same folks. That's the pool of streamers I'm talking about. There have been 8 or 9 Everchosen events, and pre-Covid, CA invited pairs of streamers in to host and commentate, and help set rules and pick the pool of players.
Those are the folks I mean.

There have been issues that LegendofTotalWar has been bitching about for years and they still haven't fixed, and I think he's one of the most popular total war streamers.

Not with CA. There are (as I understand it) 'creative differences' and hard feelings.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
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According to Steam I've never played a multiplayer battle in TWW2 even though I have hundreds of hours in the game, lol, it just has no appeal to me. I thought I had played a multiplayer battle at some point but maybe it was the previous game or at a friends house, because I don't have that achievement.

There's certain games I enjoy playing multiplayer, just not TWW.

Yeah, I've heard that CA don't have a good relationship with Legend, but at the same time you'd think they'd still try and fix the stuff he points out to them, especially given he has a bigger subscriber base than all of those youtubers you mentioned combined.

But at the end of the day I don't know how much CA actually takes input from streamers vs appearing like they take input from streamers, and how much actually ends up in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/31 10:01:58


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Multiplayer shows how humans will use the different armies in a competitive "I've got to win" situation. AI tend to be a touch more limited in how they play. Yes what they do they do perfectly, but the AI isn't as inventive as a player and they aren't as creative in finding new ways to run things.

So pooling MP data is a great way to see how things can be abused, broken or twisted by a thinking player. These tricks and methods bleed back into the singleplayer because people will watch and swap ideas and take ideas and experiences from MP into singleplayer.

So suddenly those multiplayer tactics are important, because they are having a direct influence on how people can play in the singleplayer.



If they find issues and errors then they can fix them up and improve both experiences.



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Eh, I don't think there's that much similarity in how to play single player vs multiplayer, people behave so differently to the AI that the tactics become very different and the exploits that work in single player have little to no bearing on multiplayer.

Then you also have the random AI "cheats" that completely throw the balance out of whack anyway.

Single player and multi player are different enough that trying to port balance from one to the other is always going to end badly. If most people just played multi I'd say who cares, there's games where single player balance means nothing because no one spends much time on single, but in this case most people play single.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/31 11:02:38


 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Multiplayer is so much harder than campaign

* You have equal points
* Humans are much better at doing the unexpected and reacting to the same
* You don't get campaign bonuses to your units
* You can can't doom stack to cheese the game - which is needed on Legendary - which kinda defeats the point of legendary difficulty....
* Artillery is not auto-win,

I have only play a bit of multiplayer and its a huge step up to win games there - not done it yet.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Yeah, multiplayer is more difficult, it's just not as fun, lol.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I've never really got on with MP or even Skirmish all that well with TW games - mostly because I hit choice paralysis in terms of how to build an army.

Esp with regard to the fact that you don't just buy units, but levels on units. So you hit the "Do I just go all in basic levels and more units; or elites or some elites or what just what!"


Which is a learning curve thing for each army in terms of learning how to use the points system to buy a functional powerful force. It's just a curve I've never really put time into learning

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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

But at the end of the day I don't know how much CA actually takes input from streamers vs appearing like they take input from streamers, and how much actually ends up in the game.


I mean, during the Everchosen events they'd have studio guys sit down with the streamers and talk about changes they made and reactions to the changes, so... a lot. Enough to fly some of those guys to their HQ and host them for a couple days, and do mutual advertising for each other (they push the game, CA pushes their streams).

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

But at the end of the day I don't know how much CA actually takes input from streamers vs appearing like they take input from streamers, and how much actually ends up in the game.


I mean, during the Everchosen events they'd have studio guys sit down with the streamers and talk about changes they made and reactions to the changes, so... a lot. Enough to fly some of those guys to their HQ and host them for a couple days, and do mutual advertising for each other (they push the game, CA pushes their streams).


But how much of that translates to in game changes and how much is for publicity?

Obviously it's better than them being disconnected from the community, but it doesn't prove that's what they use as a basis for balancing the game, let alone using it to balance the SP experience.

   
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Terrifying Doombull




I beginning to think you just don't like the answer.


Look at how they format patch notes:
Beastlord (Razorgor Chariot)

Melee Defence 20 to 32
Melee Attack 32 to 38
Charge 95 to 90
Anti-Infantry 28 to 25
Cost 1200 to 1250

Hellebron
Melee Attack 70 to 68

Hellebron (Dark Steed)
Melee Attack 70 to 68

Hellebron (Cauldron of Blood)
Melee Attack 40 to 38
Melee Defence 22 to 28
Cost 2000 to 1950

Hellebron (Manticore)
Melee Attack 60 to 58

Death Hag
Melee Attack 62 to 60
Bonus vs Infantry 25 to 20

How many SP focused players will even notice these numerical tweaks? Cost doesn't even have any meaning in SP.

Meanwhile, how long did it take them to fix heroes T-posing on mounts on the campaign map? The ruined appearance of Mordheim? Buildings that were bugged in some way?

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
 
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