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Made in us
Executing Exarch




It's a surprising change, mechanics-wise. But given the nature of their relationship, and how close they were to each other in the lore, they really ought to be in the same army. And currently the only way to allow that is to make one of them a hero.

The only problem that I can see is whether it's possible to permanently kill the hero. Currently, I don't think that there are any heroes that can't be killed. But then again, I can't think of any other non-generic heroes off the top of my head. The alternative, I suppose, would be to combine them into a two-character lord, similar to the Sisters of Twilight. But making that sort of change to a lord from the first game might be considered problematic.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Eumerin wrote:
It's a surprising change, mechanics-wise. But given the nature of their relationship, and how close they were to each other in the lore, they really ought to be in the same army. And currently the only way to allow that is to make one of them a hero.

The only problem that I can see is whether it's possible to permanently kill the hero. Currently, I don't think that there are any heroes that can't be killed. But then again, I can't think of any other non-generic heroes off the top of my head. The alternative, I suppose, would be to combine them into a two-character lord, similar to the Sisters of Twilight. But making that sort of change to a lord from the first game might be considered problematic.


Kroak is a hero. I assume he's immortal from level 1? It's been so long since I played campaign with him in it I can't remember.

I though there were some other unique heroes, but my mind is drawing a blank.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I've been watching Legend's Kroq-Gar live streams, and Kroak doesn't appear to have Immortality active. I think you have to pay a skill point for it.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





I just checked, Kroak starts as immortal, but you can invest another skill point into "Irrepressible" to reduce wound time by -5.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Oh that's what it is. Cool.

Thanks!

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





It makes sense that unique heroes would be immortal, imagine how pissed you'd be if a random AI assassinated them in the first few turns, lol.
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland



Now this is a good shift as well, moving Grimgor up northwards. Makes sense putting him next to the incoming Chaos Dwarves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/06 11:42:03


One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I'm glad Grimgor is out of the way of the main brawl in the Empire/Dwarf Holds/Badlands.

Means he's less likely to confederate every Orc in the area and become a big endless green blob.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

Moving Skarsnik closer to Eight Peaks is a welcome change!

Getting hyped.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 nels1031 wrote:
Moving Skarsnik closer to Eight Peaks is a welcome change!

Getting hyped.


Queek is a little closer as well (he's north of that weird little pass and the long windabout to the Badlands). He's likely to get to Eight Peaks first, in fact.
Assuming he survives the gore-splosion that Skarbrand's presence will bring. But then, Skarsnik has the dwarves in the way. It going to be a real bloodbath down there.

With Skarsnik shifting, I presume Skrag will keep that mountain territory between the Empire and Athel Loren.
Grimgor's campaign is going to be almost brand new. Probably worth waiting until chaos dwarves, though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/06 17:49:01


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

Skrag moved to the southern edge of the Border Princes is a head scratcher. His campaign will probably be easy going and able to build a sizeable empire pretty fast.

Kind of weird to not start Greasus in the settlement that's named for him. But I guess reclaiming that would be his campaigns initial focus.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

They probably don't want him eating the entire Empire, so moved him south. He can get some Italian take-out instead.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Yup. I was wrong about Skrag, but confused as to why he moved. Maybe they found he was eating Karl Franz (despite the objections) in the early game.

I forget what defeat bonus Wurrzag gives. Might be worth it to jump the channel and duff him over.

He's also probably still has dwarf ghosts and peg-leg mermaids to deal with. Though the dwarf might move closer to Eight Peaks like the other contenders.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wurrzag's defeat trait is 10% physical resist. It's pretty decent.

But yeah, I suspect that Skrag was moved to stop him from eating the Empire.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/07 15:23:10


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Woo! Khazrak is finally in the right place, and can go bother Todbringer.

Morghur is in a better spot to annoy wood elves.


Speaking of whom, anyone else suspect Treebeard will be sent to the Heart of the Forest down in the Southlands to space out the LLs a bit?

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Tree Hitler should end up in the far east. Haunted Forest would be good.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tree Hitler should end up in the far east. Haunted Forest would be good.


Ah, I'd missed that got turned into a one-province region.
Pretty ugly start position, though, stuck between plagues and fire-bellies.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

Nice of Morghur to switch positions with Khazrak. He's such a pleasant fellow!

Malagor starts pretty damn close to the center of a hornets nest though. If his army gets caught in the open he's going to have a bad time.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 nels1031 wrote:
Nice of Morghur to switch positions with Khazrak. He's such a pleasant fellow!

Malagor starts pretty damn close to the center of a hornets nest though. If his army gets caught in the open he's going to have a bad time.


Somewhat. Yes, Settra is also going to be close, but on the plus side, as a chaos faction he shouldn't be automatically-at-war with Skarbrand. That helps a lot. Going after someone he is in contact/at war with will help push that relationship pretty high as well. (It also helps that I played him in ME after beastmen rework. He face-rolled everything in that area. Just crushed it).


You know, looking at the map, I think they screwed up with the Empire and Bretonnia. Reorienting the Norsca starts to the north coast, moving Skarsnik AND Skrag, and the map reorientation so Azhag is in contact with Kislev and not really Ostermark really changes things.

Manfred and Drycha are threats in the eastern Empire. Khazrak is occupied in Middenland. Reikland and the Golden Order really don't have immediate threats, at least not for a while. Louen might, but it depends on how Belakor moves off Albion. I really want to see where they stick Vlad now that his starting location is part of Southern Sylvania (ie, in Mannfred's territory).

It also doesn't help that the Empire simply looks bigger now. Its a huge place to build up in comparative peace, unless they get really weird with remaining factions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/08 15:57:35


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
If you choose Vlad as your Legendary Lord, Isabella will be automatically unlocked as a hero and vice versa.


Wait, Isabella and Vlad now have a lord-hero relationship instead of a lord-lord relationship?



Makes their synergy bonus easier to get. IIRC, in the very early days of TW1, wasn't she a hero instead of a LL?


Was she? I dunno, I didn't play much TWW1 as I only bought it on sale shortly before TWW2 came out, in my memory they've always been Lords. Seems downgrading them to heroes will either have the effect of creating deathstar armies, or else their power level would need to be heavily reduced.


I believe she was a lord. Which is why their synergy bonuses kinda sucked because to get them you had to have your two main LLs stick together. They couldn't spread out.

Which is another reason I wish they would go back to the Medieval 2 army comp rules where you didn't HAVE to have a lord leading an army and could just let your armies not have a leader. Split off a couple units by themselves from time to time, etc... And you could have 2 "lords" in the same army.

Then I wouldn't have to dedicate a lord to act as a reaction force to hunt down small armies of annoying raiders. I could just have some cav units do that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/08 17:26:58


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Yeah, the inability to grab a few units, not bother with a general, and stick them somewhere needed is one of the things I miss about the older Total War games. I think it was Rome 2 that did away with that. By all means put limits on what an army without a general can do. But make it an option

I found the set-up in Three Kingdoms (a general can lead up to six units, and three generals can fit in one stack) a decent compromise. But I miss the option to buy a few extra units and stick them in a garrison on a quiet border just in case that neighbor decides to try something.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I would say an army without a lord is sufficient downside enough. Specific penalties is unnecessary.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

Once all the LLs are set for immortal empires, I'd like them to set the game away without the player and let it see who comes out as the victor.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Olthannon wrote:
Once all the LLs are set for immortal empires, I'd like them to set the game away without the player and let it see who comes out as the victor.


That's pretty standard process for strategy game development. Every new game build (should) involve at least a few machines just running the campaign over and over again without a player to check for over-achieving AI factions.
That should be week one of every build cycle, while the team looks for things that broke in the new version.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




LL starts don't really matter for the player IMO. I haven't had an issue on VH in WH2/3 with anyone so far, except for with mods added. Tomb Kings Extended sent four factions after me ASAP as Lyonesse. I have yet to see that happen in the base game.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




trexmeyer wrote:
LL starts don't really matter for the player IMO. I haven't had an issue on VH in WH2/3 with anyone so far, except for with mods added. Tomb Kings Extended sent four factions after me ASAP as Lyonesse. I have yet to see that happen in the base game.


That's... not the issue.
Its for picking up aberrant behavior (Vlad running to the village south of Nuln, getting wrecked by attrition and destroyed by other AIs, which is something I saw over and over again), factions getting consistently destroyed early in the game (Nakai the Wanderer, and I expect N'kari to be much the same) or entire regions just getting painted as a single faction empire (with 90%+ consistency), which was a problem with dwarves and then orcs in the Badlands depending on the patch. Or Manfred building a huge swath all the way to Praag and then just getting steamrolled and losing everything to Empire doom stacks once turns 70+ roll around. That indicates a huge faction imbalance in early and late game units.

Its about the backdrop for the player, not necessarily results being 'too hard' for the player. If faction diversity goes way down, or there are factions the player never sees because they suck, that leads to a worse play experience. Its ok if it happens sometimes; in different games if different factions form huge Badlands empires, it can make make for fun games, but less so if its Grimgor every time all the time, and you've got to slog through every. single. corner. of all those mountains.


-----
Tomb Kings are exactly where you'd expect. /shrug
I'd hoped they would move Khatep, but really someone needs to be over there for variety's sake. I hope someone gets dropped in the dark elves northern frontier. Its a tight part of the map, but it doesn't look particularly interesting right now.
Its bizarre that the Southlands are the place to be, despite being one of the most neglected parts of the world.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/09 14:17:16


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Everyone's there but Araby...

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Voss wrote:

-----
Tomb Kings are exactly where you'd expect. /shrug
I'd hoped they would move Khatep, but really someone needs to be over there for variety's sake. I hope someone gets dropped in the dark elves northern frontier. Its a tight part of the map, but it doesn't look particularly interesting right now.
Its bizarre that the Southlands are the place to be, despite being one of the most neglected parts of the world.


Not really a surprise with the Tomb Kings, of course, since they're one of the more regional groups - unless you decide that Settra's located another stolen coin. When that happens, all bets are off. Also, there's only four Tomb Kings lords, and one of them's hostile to the others. So there's really only two "loyal" Tomb Kings LLs in the Tomb King homeland. It's an odd situation, to be sure.

I expect that one of the future Cathay LLs (the sea dragon, Yin Yin) is going to end up in the Southlands eventually, as well. Apparently she once launched a large-scale expeditionary force to invade the Southlands, but it was completely wiped out with only a single survivor returning to Cathay alive. I figure the devs will announce that she's decided to make another attempt.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/09 23:58:07


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Eumerin wrote:
Voss wrote:

-----
Tomb Kings are exactly where you'd expect. /shrug
I'd hoped they would move Khatep, but really someone needs to be over there for variety's sake. I hope someone gets dropped in the dark elves northern frontier. Its a tight part of the map, but it doesn't look particularly interesting right now.
Its bizarre that the Southlands are the place to be, despite being one of the most neglected parts of the world.


Not really a surprise with the Tomb Kings, of course, since they're one of the more regional groups - unless you decide that Settra's located another stolen coin. When that happens, all bets are off. Also, there's only four Tomb Kings lords, and one of them's hostile to the others. So there's really only two "loyal" Tomb Kings LLs in the Tomb King homeland. It's an odd situation, to be sure.

I expected Settra to be at home. I largely expected Khalida to be where she is, despite her weird position in the Vortex campaign. Arkhan was a little up in the air- he could go be villainous anywhere (had the article mentioning Ghorst not happened, up near Nagashizzar would have been my guess). Khatep doesn't have any real reason to be where he is. He could have been dropped anywhere on the map away from Khemri itself (I was half expecting near Cathay, just to fill the empty space at that end of the map, and add some enemy variety to what the dragons face).

Their picks are reasonable, just not much to talk about. I expect vampirates to be much the same. Aside from a question mark on Durthu, I expect WE to be the same. Dwarves might shift the runemaster (or just keep him in the Southland Scrum), and we know Grombrindal's gone walkabout.
Vlad/Isabella are displaced, but kicking them out of the Empire would feel weird, doubly so since the Empire has so few threats (unless they add an unprotected path eastwards from the Northern grey mountains, Kemmler has a long path around to threaten the Empire, but that makes the mountain castles pointless.

Dark elves are going to be the real game changers. I expect Malekith, Morathi and the Hag Queen will pack out the homeland (as will Grombrindal and the wood elf twins) The Admiral will either keep his current seat or be moved into either of Teclis' old spots (the turtle isles would actually be more interesting, as it gives access to Cathay and the backside of Lustria is pretty empty), while Malus and Rakarth are displaced from their current starts by Kugath and Belakor respectively. That's the announcement I'm looking forward to the most.

Well... and Archaeon (and somewhat Sigvald, NW chaos wastes was a weird description in the dedicated factions video. Does that mean the Shard Lands? Or even Ironfrost Glacier?). But they could very well drop Archaeon on the Skull Road and have him deal with Azhag and Grimgor (which is an amusing reference to Storm of Chaos). I think Kholek is in the Ancient Giant Lands, it seems appropriate and fits the description of 'north of the Mountains of Mourn).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/10 01:14:21


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Voss wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:
LL starts don't really matter for the player IMO. I haven't had an issue on VH in WH2/3 with anyone so far, except for with mods added. Tomb Kings Extended sent four factions after me ASAP as Lyonesse. I have yet to see that happen in the base game.


That's... not the issue.
Its for picking up aberrant behavior (Vlad running to the village south of Nuln, getting wrecked by attrition and destroyed by other AIs, which is something I saw over and over again), factions getting consistently destroyed early in the game (Nakai the Wanderer, and I expect N'kari to be much the same) or entire regions just getting painted as a single faction empire (with 90%+ consistency), which was a problem with dwarves and then orcs in the Badlands depending on the patch. Or Manfred building a huge swath all the way to Praag and then just getting steamrolled and losing everything to Empire doom stacks once turns 70+ roll around. That indicates a huge faction imbalance in early and late game units.



AI performance has to do with player's faction choice, aggressiveness (certain factions have next to no aggressiveness in the base game), autoresolve, whether or not their starting settlement is major or minor, and of course, how many enemies they have around them. It's more complex than just location. Vampire Counts should typically underperform right now because they're built around heroes and magic and the AI doesn't use those effectively . They could have no significant enemies next to them and they would still underperform. Vlad gets curbstomped because he starts in a minor settlement in particular. Even on VH Hemmler sits on his butt the entire game unless the player takes nearby settlements.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
 
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