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Gadzilla666 wrote: Poor loyalists. So many great units that one that offers an ability only available to them and CSM (through fw) still isn't good enough. At least your drop pods didn't have their deployment rules screwed up so that their passengers can't get out on the turn they arrive from deep strike. *grumble grumble *
Dude. CSM has many unique units too. I'm pretty envious of daemon princes and defilers but it's not even about that. It is just the points cost. 70 points is far to much to make a unit deep strike turn 1 and put a frontline bunker into your opponents frontline they can hide in. The issue is points. Kind of like how we both have access to predators but both aren't useable because the points are bad.
I'd like you to compare the unit list in the CSM codex to the unit list in the loyalist one.
That has nothing to do with my point. Bad units are bad even if they are or aren't unique. What you want me to do is shut up and let a bad unit be bad because marines have lots of good units. That is something I can not do. I want all units to be good.
The point being made was CSM Drop Pods are even worse than the loyalist ones you say are so bad. Don't you want all units to be good?
Dumb argument. Space marine daemon princes are much worse than CSM daemon prince...see - it is a bad argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: So how come you aren’t clamoring for improvements to IG?
Or GSC?
Or Khorne Daemons?
Why did you make a thread just for one specific SM unit that has an entirely unique and damn useful ability, but nothing for any of the entire factions that aren’t good?
Cause I have a painted drop pod I never use and 2 unpainted ones I am never gonna paint because I am never gonna use them. It is sad because they are iconic units. It's even more sad that primaris cant ride in them. I can make more complaining threads if you want. It would actually be pretty interesting watching peoples tune change as it starts to deal with their primary faction.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/24 20:47:14
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
And Daemons aren’t iconic?
Guardsmen aren’t?
Genestealers aren’t?
Plus, what does a Daemon Prince do? They smash stuff in melee. All but Khorne also cast powers, but that’s secondary, generally.
If you can’t build a better beat stick than a Daemon Prince with the SM Dex and a Supplement (probably don’t even need the supplement) you aren’t trying.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Gadzilla666 wrote: Poor loyalists. So many great units that one that offers an ability only available to them and CSM (through fw) still isn't good enough. At least your drop pods didn't have their deployment rules screwed up so that their passengers can't get out on the turn they arrive from deep strike. *grumble grumble *
Dude. CSM has many unique units too. I'm pretty envious of daemon princes and defilers but it's not even about that. It is just the points cost. 70 points is far to much to make a unit deep strike turn 1 and put a frontline bunker into your opponents frontline they can hide in. The issue is points. Kind of like how we both have access to predators but both aren't useable because the points are bad.
I'd like you to compare the unit list in the CSM codex to the unit list in the loyalist one.
That has nothing to do with my point. Bad units are bad even if they are or aren't unique. What you want me to do is shut up and let a bad unit be bad because marines have lots of good units. That is something I can not do. I want all units to be good.
The point being made was CSM Drop Pods are even worse than the loyalist ones you say are so bad. Don't you want all units to be good?
Dumb argument. Space marine daemon princes are much worse than CSM daemon prince...see - it is a bad argument.
But I thought you wanted all units to be good?
Also loyalist Daemon Princes don't exist. . . unless you count the Sanguinor. . . and he might be good, I dunno.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Poor loyalists. So many great units that one that offers an ability only available to them and CSM (through fw) still isn't good enough. At least your drop pods didn't have their deployment rules screwed up so that their passengers can't get out on the turn they arrive from deep strike. *grumble grumble *
Dude. CSM has many unique units too. I'm pretty envious of daemon princes and defilers but it's not even about that. It is just the points cost. 70 points is far to much to make a unit deep strike turn 1 and put a frontline bunker into your opponents frontline they can hide in. The issue is points. Kind of like how we both have access to predators but both aren't useable because the points are bad.
I'd like you to compare the unit list in the CSM codex to the unit list in the loyalist one.
That has nothing to do with my point. Bad units are bad even if they are or aren't unique. What you want me to do is shut up and let a bad unit be bad because marines have lots of good units. That is something I can not do. I want all units to be good.
The point being made was CSM Drop Pods are even worse than the loyalist ones you say are so bad. Don't you want all units to be good?
Dumb argument. Space marine daemon princes are much worse than CSM daemon prince...see - it is a bad argument.
But I thought you wanted all units to be good?
Also loyalist Daemon Princes don't exist. . . unless you count the Sanguinor. . . and he might be good, I dunno.
oh I thought you were being facetious. You are talking about the unique forge world drop pods. Ehhh - I don't even know what they do honestly - They should also be better if they are bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: And Daemons aren’t iconic?
Guardsmen aren’t?
Genestealers aren’t?
Plus, what does a Daemon Prince do? They smash stuff in melee. All but Khorne also cast powers, but that’s secondary, generally.
If you can’t build a better beat stick than a Daemon Prince with the SM Dex and a Supplement (probably don’t even need the supplement) you aren’t trying.
Yes but this is a thread about drop pods...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/24 21:09:23
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Gadzilla666 wrote: Poor loyalists. So many great units that one that offers an ability only available to them and CSM (through fw) still isn't good enough. At least your drop pods didn't have their deployment rules screwed up so that their passengers can't get out on the turn they arrive from deep strike. *grumble grumble *
Dude. CSM has many unique units too. I'm pretty envious of daemon princes and defilers but it's not even about that. It is just the points cost. 70 points is far to much to make a unit deep strike turn 1 and put a frontline bunker into your opponents frontline they can hide in. The issue is points. Kind of like how we both have access to predators but both aren't useable because the points are bad.
I'd like you to compare the unit list in the CSM codex to the unit list in the loyalist one.
That has nothing to do with my point. Bad units are bad even if they are or aren't unique. What you want me to do is shut up and let a bad unit be bad because marines have lots of good units. That is something I can not do. I want all units to be good.
The point being made was CSM Drop Pods are even worse than the loyalist ones you say are so bad. Don't you want all units to be good?
Dumb argument. Space marine daemon princes are much worse than CSM daemon prince...see - it is a bad argument.
But I thought you wanted all units to be good?
Also loyalist Daemon Princes don't exist. . . unless you count the Sanguinor. . . and he might be good, I dunno.
oh I thought you were being facetious. You are talking about the unique forge world drop pods. Ehhh - I don't even know what they do honestly - They should also be better if they are bad.
I'm talking about the same FW pods that Gadzillas post (that you responded to) was, yes.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Poor loyalists. So many great units that one that offers an ability only available to them and CSM (through fw) still isn't good enough. At least your drop pods didn't have their deployment rules screwed up so that their passengers can't get out on the turn they arrive from deep strike. *grumble grumble *
Dude. CSM has many unique units too. I'm pretty envious of daemon princes and defilers but it's not even about that. It is just the points cost. 70 points is far to much to make a unit deep strike turn 1 and put a frontline bunker into your opponents frontline they can hide in. The issue is points. Kind of like how we both have access to predators but both aren't useable because the points are bad.
Yes, we do, including the two other units in the entire game (unless there's something else I'm unaware of) that can ignore the matched play reserve deployment rules. Deep Strikeing turn one, and ignoring the points limits for reserves, is something only loyalists and CSM can do, and loyalists do it better because gw didn't screw up the wording of your rules. And you're complaining that having an ability only available to one other faction in the game isn't good enough.
My necrons do it for free with 21 models 0 < 70 points. Abilities that allow you to move twice accomplish basically the same thing with higher upside. Your arguement is not very good. Most armies have access to some sort of gimick that gets them up the table really fast turn 1 out of all of these abilties - the drop pod is probably the worst of the bunch because its literally 70 points for the ability an nothing else. A choas sorcerer with warptime for example can deny powers and buff units with prescience all game - compared to shooting a storm bolter once and then turning into a bunker for your opponent it is not even close.
Yes, a Sorcerer can Warptime a unit up the board, but they both have to be on the board first. If your opponent gets first turn then they can shoot both the Sorcerer and whatever he was going to Warptime off the board. And whatever the Sorcerer is Warptiming is more limited in where it can go than a drop pod. A drop pod can come down anywhere within 9 of an enemy unit, on any turn before turn 4. Meanwhile, it and whatever is in it is safely aboard the Battle Barge. Deep Strike isn't the same as extra movement, it has its own advantages and disadvantages, and giving it to a unit that doesn't have it is what you pay for with a drop pod. I'm not saying that Warptime isn't incredibly good, it is, but it's not the same thing as Deep Strike.
I'm not aware of this ability that Necrons have that you mentioned. Enlighten me.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Poor loyalists. So many great units that one that offers an ability only available to them and CSM (through fw) still isn't good enough. At least your drop pods didn't have their deployment rules screwed up so that their passengers can't get out on the turn they arrive from deep strike. *grumble grumble *
Dude. CSM has many unique units too. I'm pretty envious of daemon princes and defilers but it's not even about that. It is just the points cost. 70 points is far to much to make a unit deep strike turn 1 and put a frontline bunker into your opponents frontline they can hide in. The issue is points. Kind of like how we both have access to predators but both aren't useable because the points are bad.
I'd like you to compare the unit list in the CSM codex to the unit list in the loyalist one.
That has nothing to do with my point. Bad units are bad even if they are or aren't unique. What you want me to do is shut up and let a bad unit be bad because marines have lots of good units. That is something I can not do. I want all units to be good.
The point being made was CSM Drop Pods are even worse than the loyalist ones you say are so bad. Don't you want all units to be good?
Dumb argument. Space marine daemon princes are much worse than CSM daemon prince...see - it is a bad argument.
But I thought you wanted all units to be good?
Also loyalist Daemon Princes don't exist. . . unless you count the Sanguinor. . . and he might be good, I dunno.
oh I thought you were being facetious. You are talking about the unique forge world drop pods. Ehhh - I don't even know what they do honestly - They should also be better if they are bad.
I'm talking about the same FW pods that Gadzillas post (that you responded to) was, yes.
Well then - my personal opinion about FW is - I don't care about it in the slightest. If they really cared about these units they would make them in plastic and sell them in their stores. They are collectors items we are just lucky/unlucky enough to get rules for. They are a nightmare for balance as it doubles the units pool. Does it help my argument to mention that CSM drop pods are also bad when they are an entirely different unit with different abilities? I'd really like to keep the focus on the space marine drop pod which is basically paying 70 points to make a unit deep strike - which is clearly too much.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Poor loyalists. So many great units that one that offers an ability only available to them and CSM (through fw) still isn't good enough. At least your drop pods didn't have their deployment rules screwed up so that their passengers can't get out on the turn they arrive from deep strike. *grumble grumble *
Dude. CSM has many unique units too. I'm pretty envious of daemon princes and defilers but it's not even about that. It is just the points cost. 70 points is far to much to make a unit deep strike turn 1 and put a frontline bunker into your opponents frontline they can hide in. The issue is points. Kind of like how we both have access to predators but both aren't useable because the points are bad.
Yes, we do, including the two other units in the entire game (unless there's something else I'm unaware of) that can ignore the matched play reserve deployment rules. Deep Strikeing turn one, and ignoring the points limits for reserves, is something only loyalists and CSM can do, and loyalists do it better because gw didn't screw up the wording of your rules. And you're complaining that having an ability only available to one other faction in the game isn't good enough.
My necrons do it for free with 21 models 0 < 70 points. Abilities that allow you to move twice accomplish basically the same thing with higher upside. Your arguement is not very good. Most armies have access to some sort of gimick that gets them up the table really fast turn 1 out of all of these abilties - the drop pod is probably the worst of the bunch because its literally 70 points for the ability an nothing else. A choas sorcerer with warptime for example can deny powers and buff units with prescience all game - compared to shooting a storm bolter once and then turning into a bunker for your opponent it is not even close.
Yes, a Sorcerer can Warptime a unit up the board, but they both have to be on the board first. If your opponent gets first turn then they can shoot both the Sorcerer and whatever he was going to Warptime off the board. And whatever the Sorcerer is Warptiming is more limited in where it can go than a drop pod. A drop pod can come down anywhere within 9 of an enemy unit, on any turn before turn 4. Meanwhile, it and whatever is in it is safely aboard the Battle Barge. Deep Strike isn't the same as extra movement, it has its own advantages and disadvantages, and giving it to a unit that doesn't have it is what you pay for with a drop pod. I'm not saying that Warptime isn't incredibly good, it is, but it's not the same thing as Deep Strike.
I'm not aware of this ability that Necrons have that you mentioned. Enlighten me.
I am talking tactically it is the same. Putting a unit into action turn 1. Warp time can be better actually for an assault unit - it can get you closer than 9" and it has other downsides - like it can fail to go off - but a drop pod can also be screened out.
I am speaking about veil of darkness. It is a relic that any necron army can use. I pick a unit up off the table and put it anywhere on the table outside of 9" - TS have the exact same ability. Veil of darkness can be free as your first relic or cost 1 CP for your second. It is not coming in from reserves BUT it is pretty much automatic you can hide the unit you want to veil without any issue - or you really aren't playing on a legal table. It is amazing. Would I pay 70 point for it? Nope. I wouldn't pay 50...and this is for a unit twice the size of what a drop pod can bring in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/24 21:58:43
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Oh I see, so this is just a " Space marine have some not top tier units and that is bad ! " thread.
Of course some units aren't going to be great and universally useful. There is a use for drop pods, but not all the time. Many books have lame duck units all over. Marines aren't the only ones stricken with this and they should all be looked at.
Just look at guard I could go unit to unit and you'd see just a small few units of worth that you see all the time and the rest ? Like the road warrior, they live now only in my memory because no one takes them.
So yeah, this is a rules writer problem they need a better grip on their own game system to make all the units useful but not must haves in an army selection. That goes for everyone however, not just marines.
I still think the drop pod has a use and may again when the current fad of being able to keep all kinds of things in reserve and outflank with them vanishes once more. This gimmick in reserves use made many kinds of mobility options feel lame but has only been with us for an edition thus far, pods, pricing aside have given good use for many editions.
This isn't even the worst they've been and honestly their biggest negative now is they still cost too much, if they get the price just right they'll find ways into lists once more, as even now they have a point if you build an army to utilize them and what they offer. They just aren't top tier and aren't a take all the time choice.
Units that are so good you always have to take them, or should are the choices you want to avoid in any army rules writing as they take away any meaningful choice for the player. All the units should be good if used and taken with the correct aims.
If the thread is just to be like " But muh drop pods...sad face " Why not just write a list with all armies worst units and we can all cry together.
I'll bring the Ogryns and Deathstrike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/24 22:24:14
Well then - my personal opinion about FW is - I don't care about it in the slightest. If they really cared about these units they would make them in plastic and sell them in their stores. They are collectors items we are just lucky/unlucky enough to get rules for. They are a nightmare for balance as it doubles the units pool. Does it help my argument to mention that CSM drop pods are also bad when they are an entirely different unit with different abilities? I'd really like to keep the focus on the space marine drop pod which is basically paying 70 points to make a unit deep strike - which is clearly too much.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Oh I see, so this is just a " Space marine have some not top tier units and that is bad ! " thread.
Were Eldar players not allowed to complain about their useless units or are you just proving some double standard?
If you actually read and don't just blindly quote, you'd see a whole post placed just a few posts above, one of mine in which I agreed all crap units should be made good. However, the OP said this is really just a " woe is me drop pods aren't amazing, this needs to change " thread.
I in some detail did explain how having bad units sucks, but isn't a marine only problem. I also did point out how the drop pod is bad in the fact it costs too much and with reserve rules basically making the point of Drop pods kinda useless isn't a fault of the drop pod per say but of the core rules giving most units unprecedented mobility. Something that at one point the pods did for their cost.
Are you just picking small snippets of mine to quote to push some selective outrage ? I voice quite freely when I find something messed up. I've quite routinely gone to bat for Eldar players, Ork players, even Marine players when they are right.
So let me be clear, the Pod isn't " Good " if by good you mean an auto take. It has a point and a purpose, it costs too much however for what it does and it's job isn't as needed with the rise in mobility due to everyone having very kind reserves and outflanking these days.
That isn't a pod only issue however and could be fixed better with dialing back the pods cost which for a few editions has been too high imo. It's still not a useless unit however, just an over costed one.
If you feel Pods are useless on that I disagree, they are over costed of that I agree. It's more an issue with the core game system these days and less so a problem with the pod itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/25 00:04:09
AngryAngel80 wrote: Oh I see, so this is just a " Space marine have some not top tier units and that is bad ! " thread.
Were Eldar players not allowed to complain about their useless units or are you just proving some double standard?
If you actually read and don't just blindly quote, you'd see a whole post placed just a few posts above, one of mine in which I agreed all crap units should be made good. However, the OP said this is really just a " woe is me drop pods aren't amazing, this needs to change " thread.
Then if you agree why do you care the OP set up a thread to complain about it?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Because Drop Pods aren't even particularly bad. They're not a stellar, auto-take in every list unit. But they're not bad. There are many, MANY more pressing units that need to be fixed than Drop Pods.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: Because Drop Pods aren't even particularly bad. They're not a stellar, auto-take in every list unit. But they're not bad. There are many, MANY more pressing units that need to be fixed than Drop Pods.
This is why I care, the drop pod isn't insanely bad. It just lacks a clear role outside some niche lists because of the core rules which is something you can fix with proper points adjustments as I doubt they'll touch on the rules for it so soon. They could also make a strat for them to give them more teeth and use in a list. Which seems to be their way of making a mid tier unit viable these days.
There is a lot of hyperbole on here when a unit isn't " OMG It wins games on its own ! " that it is beyond terrible and needs a fix now, the drop pod isn't that bad. It's just not that good.
I quoted you because you are getting what I'm trying to say with all this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/25 01:51:15
Gadzilla666 wrote: Poor loyalists. So many great units that one that offers an ability only available to them and CSM (through fw) still isn't good enough. At least your drop pods didn't have their deployment rules screwed up so that their passengers can't get out on the turn they arrive from deep strike. *grumble grumble *
Dude. CSM has many unique units too. I'm pretty envious of daemon princes and defilers but it's not even about that. It is just the points cost. 70 points is far to much to make a unit deep strike turn 1 and put a frontline bunker into your opponents frontline they can hide in. The issue is points. Kind of like how we both have access to predators but both aren't useable because the points are bad.
I'd like you to compare the unit list in the CSM codex to the unit list in the loyalist one.
That has nothing to do with my point. Bad units are bad even if they are or aren't unique. What you want me to do is shut up and let a bad unit be bad because marines have lots of good units. That is something I can not do. I want all units to be good.
The point being made was CSM Drop Pods are even worse than the loyalist ones you say are so bad. Don't you want all units to be good?
Dumb argument. Space marine daemon princes are much worse than CSM daemon prince...see - it is a bad argument.
But I thought you wanted all units to be good?
Also loyalist Daemon Princes don't exist. . . unless you count the Sanguinor. . . and he might be good, I dunno.
oh I thought you were being facetious. You are talking about the unique forge world drop pods. Ehhh - I don't even know what they do honestly - They should also be better if they are bad.
I'm talking about the same FW pods that Gadzillas post (that you responded to) was, yes.
Well then - my personal opinion about FW is - I don't care about it in the slightest. If they really cared about these units they would make them in plastic and sell them in their stores. They are collectors items we are just lucky/unlucky enough to get rules for. They are a nightmare for balance as it doubles the units pool. Does it help my argument to mention that CSM drop pods are also bad when they are an entirely different unit with different abilities? I'd really like to keep the focus on the space marine drop pod which is basically paying 70 points to make a unit deep strike - which is clearly too much.
Oh, so you're only interested in your drop pods having good rules. Got it. For the record, I could see drop pods being a bit cheaper. Dreadclaws (yeah, I know you don't care ) are perfectly fine at their current price, they just need to fix their rules.
And I looked up Veil of Darkness, it only works for <DYNASTY> <CORE> units. So, Warriors, Immortals, and Lychguard right? Good units, but dropping any of those in your opponents face isn't quite as nasty as a couple multi-melta or grav Devastator squads.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Good units, but dropping any of those in your opponents face isn't quite as nasty as a couple multi-melta or grav Devastator squads.
That depends on the targets being shot at and if you have the CP to spend on Relentless Onslaught and/or Disruption Fields. Gauss flayer warriors are just plain nasty against most target profiles.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Good units, but dropping any of those in your opponents face isn't quite as nasty as a couple multi-melta or grav Devastator squads.
That depends on the targets being shot at and if you have the CP to spend on Relentless Onslaught and/or Disruption Fields. Gauss flayer warriors are just plain nasty against most target profiles.
You mean the S4 AP-1 D1 weapon? With 24" RF1?
A weapon that's like a Bolt Rifle... But worse, due to less range?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
A weapon that's like a Bolt Rifle... But worse, due to less range?
Gah, I meant the Gauss Reaper. You know, the one you equip your 20 man brick with before veiling them in to delete something and then fishing for a charge against whatever's left.
A weapon that's like a Bolt Rifle... But worse, due to less range?
Gah, I meant the Gauss Reaper. You know, the one you equip your 20 man brick with before veiling them in to delete something and then fishing for a charge against whatever's left.
Assault 2, S5, AP-2, D1 right? So with the strategems you mentioned thats Assault 2, S6, AP-2, D1 with exploding 6s right?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Assault 2, S5, AP-2, D1 right? So with the strategems you mentioned thats Assault 2, S6, AP-2, D1 with exploding 6s right?
That's almost right. The first strat is an extra on a hit roll of 6, the second is +1 strength in combat. Usually, if you're doing this you'll also have rad-wreathed going for you so that +1 strength strat is situational but wrecks choice targets like gravis armored troops and bikes who rely on that T5 to survive; this changes again if you have directive 2 of the protocol of the hungry void active alongside rad-wreathed as this then allows your warriors to wound marines on 2 on a turn when they charge or are charged. It's complicated to get the most out of Necrons, though the Silent King does help with that and can further buff the power of the units around him with re-rollable shooting attacks and +1 to hit and re-rollable wounds in melee.
If you thought Marines were buff-centric you really should see what Necrons played by a skilled general can do.
JNAProductions wrote: Because Drop Pods aren't even particularly bad. They're not a stellar, auto-take in every list unit. But they're not bad. There are many, MANY more pressing units that need to be fixed than Drop Pods.
It kinda is, simply because of the lack of use. With all the strats and natural mobility to begin with in the codex, it's unreasonable to essentially pay 7-14 points for a unit to Deep Strike.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Maybe for people that already own the models and the marines that can get inside of them. A new player is not going to risk investing in to multiple vehicles and units to transport in them, when there is a serious risk that they may end up in legends at the end of the edition.
There just isn't enough to transport in those things anyway. If they could carry primaris units, then it would be way different.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Yeah, so its over costed, yes ? Over costed doesn't mean awful bad, just in need of points drops which I think most of us would agree with.
So arguably deepstrike is worth 2ppm (reiver grav chutes, or jump packs). Turn 1 is a premium DS so maybe 3-4ppm. 10 seats, 30-40 points for deepstriking 10 guys. So is the pod itself worth 40-30 pts? Immobile, T6, 8 wound, storm bolter turret?
The price point of the drop pod is never gonna change as long as other vehicles in the same range doesn't change either. You can't price a rhino at 80pts and a pod at 50 or below. It just doesn't make sense and if a rhino can be a "this unit isn't getting shot at directly from turn 1" for 80, I'm sure pods are fine at 70 and you won't lose a game by taking one or two, it's not like overpaying a bit is going to put you at such a disadvantage that you better not use them, unless you take only subpar stuff (and it's fairly improbable in a marine list), but then it's not a drop pod only issue. It's also one of these models that are kinda problematic to price properly considering what it does and the varied range of units able to use it (even though being restricted to firstborn units helps).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/25 14:31:42
If the drop pod gets a significant price cut, it needs to be reworked to be a deployment tool only, you can't have a 40-50 points T1 transport that also serves as a huge area/movement denial tool.
A drop pod should be treated as a fortification after it unloads its passengers:
- unable to hold objectives
- its doors (when open) should not count as a part of the model and should not hinder the movement or placement of any other model.
- it could shoot into enemy units within 1"
- it should not prevent enemy units within 1" from shooting and it should not prevent other units to shoot at enemy units within 1".
AngryAngel80 wrote: Yeah, so its over costed, yes ? Over costed doesn't mean awful bad, just in need of points drops which I think most of us would agree with.
That is literally my argument. Turn 1 deeps strike is a nifty ability I'd like to be able to utilize but 70 points is just too steep and it is clearly to steep when you compare it to armies that get the same ability for free (first relic).
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Kitane wrote: If the drop pod gets a significant price cut, it needs to be reworked to be a deployment tool only, you can't have a 40-50 points T1 transport that also serves as a huge area/movement denial tool.
A drop pod should be treated as a fortification after it unloads its passengers:
- unable to hold objectives
- its doors (when open) should not count as a part of the model and should not hinder the movement or placement of any other model.
- it could shoot into enemy units within 1"
- it should not prevent enemy units within 1" from shooting and it should not prevent other units to shoot at enemy units within 1".
Nah dude. It counts as terrain after it drops. Make some weird rule where it can shoot its storm bolter/missile until an enemy unit gets in engagement range of it.
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dhallnet wrote: The price point of the drop pod is never gonna change as long as other vehicles in the same range doesn't change either.
You can't price a rhino at 80pts and a pod at 50 or below. It just doesn't make sense and if a rhino can be a "this unit isn't getting shot at directly from turn 1" for 80, I'm sure pods are fine at 70 and you won't lose a game by taking one or two, it's not like overpaying a bit is going to put you at such a disadvantage that you better not use them, unless you take only subpar stuff (and it's fairly improbable in a marine list), but then it's not a drop pod only issue.
It's also one of these models that are kinda problematic to price properly considering what it does and the varied range of units able to use it (even though being restricted to firstborn units helps).
They could make it a random drop turn based on a dice roll. How would you feel abou that?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/25 15:55:01
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: Is not that drop pods are bad. Is just that the edition missions, deployment, tables and objetives make them not worth it.
Just like custodian guards with 3++ were useless in 8th and are the new hotness in 9th with 0 changes to their rules.
I cant imagine a situation where playing with 1930 points vs a 2000 point army would ever be a great idea.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
