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Okay, so that's a bit of an inflammatory title, and I suspect that not everyone thinks we are in a mess with Space Marines, but I think GW has certainly written themselves into a bit of a corner and I wish they hadn't. In fact with hindsight I think it would have been easy to avoid the things I currently don't like about Space Marines (although I appreciate that what each of us like or dislike is a very personal thing).

To give a bit of background to where I'm coming from... I originally played Space Marines back in the 1st edition Rogue Trader days. Does that make me a grognard? I don't think so*. I stopped playing when 2nd edition arrived, and that coincided with going to sixth form. I came back to the game in 8th edition and now play** 9th edition. When I came back to the game I bought a new Space Marine army (and then a Chaos Knights army, but this thread's about Space Marines).

When I started collecting*** my new Space Marine army I was torn - Primaris marines had just been released and Dakka was full of threads about how firstborn marines were about to be squatted. I didn't want to buy an army that was just about to be squatted of course, and the new true-scale Primaris marines were undoubtedly better sculpts, but what I didn't like was the lore that came with it, or the new hover tanks. If GW had just released Primaris marines as a new mark of power armour and done similar with new versions of the existing vehicles then I'm sure they'd still have made plenty of sales, both from people new to the game and existing players upgrading. And they'd have avoided two of the big problems with Space Marines now - the fact that there are twice as many datasheets in the codex as necessary, and that firstborn vehicles can't carry Primaris units (and vice versa). Why are we in this situation? It does seem likely that (despite statements to the opposite) GW were originally planning to replace firstborn marines with Primaris and have now had a change of heart based on the community response and continued sales of firstborn units.

Why am I thinking about this again now? Well the new Dark Angels codex supplement and Combat Patrol box has made me wonder whether I should now start a Primaris army. And it's always more fun to start a new army than add to an existing one right? That would also let me keep my Ultramarines army as a classic army that could have fought in 1st edition****. But the more I thought about it, the more I realised I'd really like a Deathwing army. And that means going back to firstborn units again - Terminators and Land Raiders. And then I'm back with the same dilemma that I had at the beginning of 8th - am I about to buy into an army that's going to get squatted? I already have a firstborn marine army, so I don't want two if that is going to happen. And then there's the fact that only some of the Dark Angel characters have crossed the Rubicon Primaris. That's another area of inconsistency - are all characters making the transition or only some? The lore would suggest that it's a dangerous procedure with a high likelihood of death, so does that mean characters are destined to stay half Primaris and half firstborn?

Given that Terminators and Land Raiders are being promoted even in 9th edition, and there aren't really Primaris replacements for them***** it does make me wonder if these are a safe bet. I mean other firstborn marine units could still conceivably get squatted I suppose, even with the move to 2W, because there are technically Primaris replacements for them. The whole situation still leaves me feeling very uncertain about Space Marines. When GW just announced that if you link your GW and MyWarhammer accounts and put £300 worth of stuff on your basket they'll draw 5 lucky winners and give them it for free, I instinctively loaded up with a Dark Angels army of Primaris and Deathwing units. But then all of the things I've discussed above kept niggling, so I went back and changed it for some terrain, some firstborn marine vehicles for my Ultramarines army and a Rampager for my Chaos Knights army.

Are Space Marines in a mess? Do you mix Primaris and firstborn units in your Space Marine army? What do Dark Angels players think about the future of Deathwing post 9th edition? Should we just accept the current lore and codex situation as how it's going to be from now on - with Primaris and firstborn units fighting side-by-side and only some iconic characters ever becoming Primaris? What do you think?

* Okay, so maybe one thing that does make me a bit of a grognard was my dismay that since stopping playing all that time ago, two of my favourite vehicles from 1st edition - the Land Raider and Land Speeder - had had some lore retconned in about having had their STC's rediscovered by some bloke called Arkhan Land, and that was why they were so named. Really? That's just dumb. Did Callias Drop rediscover the drop pod STC? Come on!
** Well I would if we weren't locked-down in the middle of a global pandemic. I have all the rules and my army lists ready to go...
*** And I did start collecting with a Start Collecting! set - which was indeed firstborn units.
**** Which appeals from a nostalgia point of view.
***** Certainly not that would fit with Dark Angels lore.

As another aging, but not yet grognard player, I also thought GW was scrapping firstborn. However, I am quite unsure as to why as I don't believe it was based upon community response of just firstborn marine sales.

I do expect a phased approach to reduce the firstborn line, whether in the form of another Codex release in late 9th edition or when 10th gets released.

I largely ignore the lore.

Mixing old SM & primaris....
*I have several marine forces. In 2 of them there will be no Primais ever.
*In my DA? I might consider adding some Primaris. It just depends upon if I find a painted unit of a quality I'm looking for at the right price. (the theme of my DA is "Nothing in this force was painted by me".
*Some Primaris would seem appropriate in my Mentor Legion forces.
*And then I've got the beginnings of a pure Primaris force (the Indom box + some extras.

Are Space Marines in a mess?

More like the entire (9th) edition is a hot mess.

Some people like it, some people think it's an improvement over where 8th ended. i see it as a poor attempt to put back many aspects(like decent terrain rules) of gameplay from prior editions within the new framework of the new game mechanics

As a player who started in 3rd i quite frankly despise it. i dislike the mechanics, the changes to the lore (like you said if GW came out and said "hey we resculpted the marines and they look like this now" i think most players would have been cool with it without resorting the primaris story line). it literally is a different game system that no longer is 40K to me.

If you want to play a resource management system with combo cards more power to you. i prefer lore based play, and more play focused on what i do with my army tactical decision wise on the TT rather than if i built the right combo.

8th specifically at the start had certain potential and we still use it as a template for playing epic scale with halved ranges.

Do you mix Primaris and first born units in your Space Marine army?
Nope don't play 9th, won't own any primaris marines. our group have gone back to playing 5th edition with a few house rule fixes and we are having a blast..

I still have 2 armies. the larger one being my DIY salamanders successors and the latter being my first army dating back 20 years now-the first, the unforgiven, the dark angels. in fact i am breaking them out tomorrow for a game against a chaos army..

I should say that my opening post isn't (or wasn't meant to be) anti-Primaris. Apart from disliking the vehicles I do like the models a lot, although I still don't own any. The TL;DR is that what I don't like is the lore and the impact it has on the codex - bloat and inconsistent characters. It also leaves some uncertainty around the future of armies like the Dark Angels where the Deathwing are a huge part of the lore, so choosing to go pure Primaris isn't really an option (unless you don't want any Deathwing units).

 aphyon wrote:
Are Space Marines in a mess?

More like the entire (9th) edition is a hot mess.

That's probably a bit off-topic for this thread, but I will say that I thought 8th edition was a big improvement over 1st edition (my only other point of reference), especially the treatment of vehicles. I'm not a massive fan of stratagems either, but they do allow abilities that can only be used occasionally to be included in the game (which would have been difficult if they were standard datasheet rules for a unit). So far I like the look of 9th edition too, although being able to play again would be nice...

Played Dark Angels since 2nd Ed. I absolutely mix Primaris and old-school Marines in my forces. I doubled my Terminator Force during 8th (well, doubled the “new Terminator scale”) and now I’m quite glad that I did.

Will Old-Marines get phased out? Who knows. Play more and worry less.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Play more and worry less.

That's been my philosophy since returning to the hobby in 8th edition when I started a firstborn Ultramarines army. That we're in this state in 9th edition isn't ideal though.

Brother Castor wrote:
I should say that my opening post isn't (or wasn't meant to be) anti-Primaris. Apart from disliking the vehicles I do like the models a lot, although I still don't own any. The TL;DR is that what I don't like is the lore and the impact it has on the codex - bloat and inconsistent characters. It also leaves some uncertainty around the future of armies like the Dark Angels where the Deathwing are a huge part of the lore, so choosing to go pure Primaris isn't really an option (unless you don't want any Deathwing units).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aphyon wrote:
Are Space Marines in a mess?

More like the entire (9th) edition is a hot mess.

That's probably a bit off-topic for this thread, but I will say that I thought 8th edition was a big improvement over 1st edition (my only other point of reference), especially the treatment of vehicles. So far I like the look of 9th edition too, although being able to play again would be nice...

1st and 2nd ed are not really comparable in my book they were far more "RPG" -need a DM to referee the games to make them work- kind of system. the system that was in place from 3rd(1998) till the end of 7th(2017) were all closely compatible core rules wise. no edition was what i would call perfect (5th was the closest) some have better or worse rules changes and formation spam was a game killer in 7th(and why they removed it in the 30K version of 7th) But having played those rules for close to 20 years when making the comparison to 9th it is not better in my book and i especially dislike the treatment of vehicles in 8th/9th i want the immersive connections of facings, armor value and damage mechanics.

I have been playing in private groups for most of the last 6 months and now that things are partially re-opened gaming at the FLGS is mostly back to normal . i also play with people who like and play 9th. i have loads of experience watching how it plays. it has only re-enforced the position of why i dislike the entire edition.

When it comes to doing a pure DW army, to me specifically it will always be as it was laid out in the 3.5 mini dex . the game i have planned is for a combined arms force so i am using the 6th ed codex in the 5th ed core rules set because it has the best rules for doing a combined force-DW/RW/battle company-lead by Azrael in that rules set. .

Eventually DA will likely get updated models maybe a few years from now ( always need marines in release slots ).

At present you can do a DW army along with someone Greenwing and have it be all Primaris. It isn't the most dynamic army, but neither are a few blocks of terminators.

If someone wants to run a Deathwing Terminator army led by Azrael, then I have the Edition for you. Its 9th Edition!

I mix and match - My Marines range from RT era to Primaris

Gw "needs" to sell us (especially us older people with money) new Marine models and have effectively scaled down to having "just" one entire company (Forgeworld) focuss on new firstborn models - so there is still a constant stream of new firstborn.

Given the truely vast amount of them that have been produced plus the fact that the production capacity of two entire companies plus many companies producing "not Marine" means that models will be easy to get for decades (and in existance for centuries given they are plastic).

Will firstborn be phased out in 40K Rules - maybe - maybe in a decade or so - GW are obviously not ready to make that step but they have simply run out of Marine units to make (again and again) hence the awful gak like Centurions which Primaris are by and large far superior to.

Dark Angels lore has evolved over the decades - it did not start as ultra secretive paranoid Chapter willing to kill anyone and anything to keep their big super secret (which is actually known to others like the Grey Knights). Personally I liked the old Deathwing lore much much more than what we have now.

 aphyon wrote:
1st and 2nd ed are not really comparable in my book they were far more "RPG" -need a DM to referee the games to make them work- kind of system.

Again, a bit off-topic, but we never used a DM in 1st edition. Ignoring stratagems and objectives, the end of 1st edition was much like it is now, just with a focus on individual models rather than units, separate vehicle rules, different treatment of overwatch, blast templates, and lots of tables to roll on. It was all about the Compendium and the Compilation (the forerunners to the current codexes) at the end of 1st edition. The core rulebook was really only required for the blue crib sheet at the back.

2nd did not require a GM either. I'd personally say that the jump from 7th ti 8th was a bigger change up than 2nd to 7th let alone 2nd to 3rd. 3rd got rid of a lot of the complicated, fiddly and come up once in a blue moon things. 8th changed the system entirely to the more combo reliant system we have now.

Start a primaris DA successor chapter. Twilight Spectres or Ablutions of Terror. Bladeguard Veterans are the new Terminators and Repulsors are the new Land Raiders. I don't see an issue. If you think firstborn are cool then just play regular DA, if you want to mix then you can do that with regular DA as well. https://www.reddit.com/r/theunforgiven/comments/h8fwy2/bladeguard_veterans_photoshop/

Firstborn are not going to be squatted soon, Primaris and firstborn vehicles, Scouts and characters look fine together. That said, if I were to start DA I'd go the full Primaris route, no good reason not to and you know that the models won't be replaced or squatted for a long time and they're a bit taller so they tower over Guardsmen as they should.

 aphyon wrote:
like you said if GW came out and said "hey we resculpted the marines and they look like this now" i think most players would have been cool with it without resorting the primaris story line

Gw were already re-scaling Marines to be larger; with Deathwatch Veterans and Thousand Sons being noticeably taller than previous models. And standard Tacticus armour is essentially MkVIII with a MkIV helmet in terms of design.


We know that major changes were made to the rules of what bacame 8th edition 40K following the launch of Age of Sigmar, so it isn't difficult to imagine a world in which GW had intended to give Marines the Bretonnian/Tomb Kings treatment in order to replace them. We might also wonder about what the introduction of Ynnari (which GW subsequently haven't really done anything with) may have originally meant for Eldar/Dark Eldar...

I think you fell for the mistake of listening to the chicken littles of Dakka Dakka, where the game is unplayable, Games Workshop hates everything and everyone, and Space Marine Tacticals are about to be squatted.

The truth is, no, that's not the case. Could it happen in the future? Maybe, but it's still some ways off. I had a friend recently sell off all his Firstborn because he bought into that thinking-style, and he's the kind of person that also thinks GW is a somewhat heartless and cruel thing. But... it isn't. And because of that, they keep making it that you can play with the toys that you bought, because GW is largely run by people that love the game.

So, buy whatever you like. Firstborn are likely to stick around for a long time yet, and even when they get officially "squated", you'll just move to using them as whittle itty-bitty Primaris dudes. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if before they go you see a full "Firstborn" and "Primaris" split in codexes - a sort of "last hurrah". That's not coming for at LEAST another edition, if not longer.

You got time.

 Yarium wrote:
I think you fell for the mistake of listening to the chicken littles of Dakka Dakka, where the game is unplayable, Games Workshop hates everything and everyone, and Space Marine Tacticals are about to be squatted.

The truth is, no, that's not the case. Could it happen in the future? Maybe, but it's still some ways off. I had a friend recently sell off all his Firstborn because he bought into that thinking-style, and he's the kind of person that also thinks GW is a somewhat heartless and cruel thing. But... it isn't. And because of that, they keep making it that you can play with the toys that you bought, because GW is largely run by people that love the game.

So, buy whatever you like. Firstborn are likely to stick around for a long time yet, and even when they get officially "squated", you'll just move to using them as whittle itty-bitty Primaris dudes. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if before they go you see a full "Firstborn" and "Primaris" split in codexes - a sort of "last hurrah". That's not coming for at LEAST another edition, if not longer.

You got time.

No I've never bought into that thinking. But I do think GW got their strategy wrong with Primaris and have ended up in a mess because of it. It's difficult to see a way out of it too without further problems. Splitting firstborn and Primaris marines into separate core codexes works, until you then take into account codex supplements that would contain both firstborn and Primaris characters, and would therefore depend on both core codexes (unless all the remaining firstborn characters and the Deathwing magically cross the Rubicon Primaris unscathed).

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
If someone wants to run a Deathwing Terminator army led by Azrael, then I have the Edition for you. Its 9th Edition!

I was actually thinking of a Deathwing Vanguard Detachment of Deathwing Knights, Deathwing Terminators, a Redemptor Dreadnought and a Land Raider led by Lazarus...

Dai wrote:
2nd did not require a GM either. I'd personally say that the jump from 7th ti 8th was a bigger change up than 2nd to 7th let alone 2nd to 3rd. 3rd got rid of a lot of the complicated, fiddly and come up once in a blue moon things. 8th changed the system entirely to the more combo reliant system we have now.

My understanding too.

I played 2nd, collected RT, Ere we go, etc.
Played 4th.
Came back tail end of 7th.

I wanted to like the new editions.
And I might have liked 7th with the right group, no flyers, smaller games, etc.
8th was so disappointing tho.
And I won’t pay for 9th either.
If I were settled, I would collect old edition books.

About restartes, I agree ... hover tanks and the tacticool armor aesthetic are not for me.
I agree also with the way that restartes were introduced.
If they were introduced as a new mark of weenie armor then cool! I would now own a bunch of new marine models.
But with the story about restartes and the rubicon ridiculous whatnot, I will never own one.
Not even one.

As for new collectors, I think that some kits are glorious, e.g. blade guard.
At the same time, reivers are laughable and if a play against a flying tank then I ask a lot of questions.
The worst are the jump dudes with autocannons though.
Until GW fixes the arbitrary restrictions on what can transport who, space marines are schizophrenic.

Until GW fixes the arbitrary restrictions on what can transport who, space marines are schizophrenic.

But if you did that then any old long time player could just use the land raiders and rhinos they already have as primaris transports and not be forced to buy new GW kits...and we all know how GW corporate feels about selling more new kits.

 Yarium wrote:
I think you fell for the mistake of listening to the chicken littles of Dakka Dakka, where the game is unplayable, Games Workshop hates everything and everyone, and Space Marine Tacticals are about to be squatted.

The truth is, no, that's not the case. Could it happen in the future? Maybe, but it's still some ways off. I had a friend recently sell off all his Firstborn because he bought into that thinking-style, and he's the kind of person that also thinks GW is a somewhat heartless and cruel thing. But... it isn't. And because of that, they keep making it that you can play with the toys that you bought, because GW is largely run by people that love the game.

So, buy whatever you like. Firstborn are likely to stick around for a long time yet, and even when they get officially "squated", you'll just move to using them as whittle itty-bitty Primaris dudes. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if before they go you see a full "Firstborn" and "Primaris" split in codexes - a sort of "last hurrah". That's not coming for at LEAST another edition, if not longer.

You got time.

The original intent was probably more in line with AoS style squatting of models or entire factions to replace them with new stuff. The outcry from people worried and angry about it probably caused GW to rethink their plans and walk back the goal of replacing the entire space marine line. Same sorta thing with AoS trying to phase out Slaanesh but the outcry from the community caused a reverse course on that. Hell we saw them quickly scramble to put together a generals handbook with points and stop with the larping rules when people hated that gak.

GW is not full on evil but they often do some rather short sighted stuff in the name of profits. It's not hard to take some true scale marine concepts that designers where working on and have somebody in the newly formed marketing team to say "what if we make them better marines and get rid of the old marines. Space Marine players would have a reason to buy their armies all over again and make all those 2nd hand models being sold on eBay worthless and thus not compete with our new model releases". It kinda worked for them with AoS so naturally they might of wanted to try that out with their cash cow (40k).

The fact of the matter is this. If you buy a physical model only because of abstract rules you are buying into the rules, NOT the models. Buy the models you love and there is no such thing as obsoletion or being Squatted. Models can be for life. Rules are for generating cash from dweeb meta gamers.

I agree that GW has gotten themselves into a corner here. There are too many marines. The current path is unsustainable, and yet they have built 40k on the back of continual marine releases. Like FW these days there is major anxiety over buying firstborn because they could be slapped into legends next year for all we know. Xeno players feel neglected and uninspired, and everyone is getting tired of facing off against marines. Don't know how they are going to manage this situation, definitely curious to see what they do.

 Hollow wrote:
The fact of the matter is this. If you buy a physical model only because of abstract rules you are buying into the rules, NOT the models. Buy the models you love and there is no such thing as obsoletion or being Squatted. Models can be for life. Rules are for generating cash from dweeb meta gamers.

You're not wrong, but there's also nothing wrong with buying a mini because you like it and its rules, and then being dissatisfied if the rules suddenly suck or go away, leaving you playing Mother-May-I with your opponents to allow the mini on the field.

 Hollow wrote:
Buy the models you love and there is no such thing as obsoletion or being Squatted.

I would imagine that most gamers do buy armies they like and also want to be able to play the latest edition with their friends or local gaming group. That's certainly the case local to me anyway.

If first born marines did get moved to Legends I wouldn't be too bitter. I do love my models and would certainly keep them, but I doubt they would see action on the tabletop again - playing the latest edition and building lists with the latest rules is a big part of the hobby for me. If the squatting did happen I'd want to see Land Raiders and Terminators remain current though - that would be necessary to preserve the Deathwing, and would also give marine players a proper tank to buy. Without that I doubt I would buy a new marine army - I'd just continue with my Chaos Knights.

Even if the above were to happen, I still can't see how GW can get the remaining characters across the Rubicon Primaris without ignoring or changing the current lore.

 Hollow wrote:
The fact of the matter is this. If you buy a physical model only because of abstract rules you are buying into the rules, NOT the models. Buy the models you love and there is no such thing as obsoletion or being Squatted. Models can be for life. Rules are for generating cash from dweeb meta gamers.

Why buy GW minis at all then? I presume you don't play 40k, you just paint and collect, since you say that rules don't matter...

I really like Primaris marines, and Heresy-era armour. I'll never buy contemporary firstborn marines again, as I just don't like the look of them. I think that the primaris line just looks way better than the existing marines, and are a lot more fun to paint.

The only reason I'll buy first born again, is to make a force for Age of Darkness Horus Heresy games.

I have 2000pts of firstborn, and 2000pts+ of primaris for my space wolves. I play them as separate forces, and mixed, but I often don't mix the infantry, I don't like how the infantry look next to each other.

Hecaton wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
The fact of the matter is this. If you buy a physical model only because of abstract rules you are buying into the rules, NOT the models. Buy the models you love and there is no such thing as obsoletion or being Squatted. Models can be for life. Rules are for generating cash from dweeb meta gamers.

Why buy GW minis at all then? I presume you don't play 40k, you just paint and collect, since you say that rules don't matter...

Because he likes the 40k Minis - is that not obvious?

I've got a Marine force that is the marine halves of various starters. It's actually one of my biggest 40K armies, which says a lot about how easy it is to become a marine player just by buying starter sets!

I'm happy with them as the bad guys of my imaginary universe, and I don't feel any desire to have Primaris marines. I'd have to rescale my collection and I'd just rather not. So I only use "firstborn" units and will probably never buy a Primaris miniature. But I think they do look nice as miniatures, the basic ones anyway. The terminator replacements are ugly as sin, so are most of the vehicles and especially the scout replacements. I do acknowledge the dreads are a technical improvement but I love my old brick dreads too much.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I agree that GW has gotten themselves into a corner here. There are too many marines. The current path is unsustainable, and yet they have built 40k on the back of continual marine releases. Like FW these days there is major anxiety over buying firstborn because they could be slapped into legends next year for all we know. Xeno players feel neglected and uninspired, and everyone is getting tired of facing off against marines. Don't know how they are going to manage this situation, definitely curious to see what they do.

In AoS they managed it quite well.

Initially, it was Stormcast over Stormcast over Stormcast. Then they completely changed direction and started focusing on all other factions.

They were building a new army from scratch, and the entire Stormcast line is still smaller than the firstborn line, and smaller than the amount of Primaris that got added to the firstborn line. Marines are like 3x SCE model lines put together.

Personally, it feels to me like Primaris lack flavor. The customizable loadout of basic marine units and characters was what made them appealing to me. With the wave of anti-conversion, it-must-have-a-model chapterhousing so much of marines just feels bland. Intercessors with three varieties of bolters? Hellblasters with three varieties of plasma cannon? Those feel like chewing cardboard to me. Then this absurdity of splitting vehicles into set profiles with fixed equipment loadouts instead of just... letting us mix and match the weapon options.