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As it is supposed top be five stand alone "commander" decks I'm definitely interested.

FFG had their 40K card game but ditched it too soon because they wanted to make miniatures games and the GW contract/agreement wouldn't allow it, I wouldn't buy into a full release unless I knew it was going to be long running.

I guess no one remembers the FFG Conquest 40K CCG game from a couple years ago, do they?

 Stormonu wrote:
I guess no one remembers the FFG Conquest 40K CCG game from a couple years ago, do they?

I suspect many remember a succession of bad 40K CCGs. They just don't care.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

Magic players, don't want to buy in, typically. Don't want to put in the time to make the models or paint and really don't like the length of games in warhammer and time spent. These are very different games and appeal to different people. I get that there will be some overlap but out of the hundreds of magic players I know, maybe 5 got into warhammer.

We've long recruited new minis gamers from amongst the card players at the various shops.
Some are people outgrowing Pokemon & Yugio.
Alot though have been MTG players who've grown tired of dumping $$$ into the game & having their cards continually cycle out.

Our sales pitch is simple. Yeah, the upfront cost seems high. (especially for GW stuff) But you're stuff will virtually never rotate out.
10/15/20 years from now? You'll still be able to use 90%+ of whatever you bought today. Now the rules might shift back & forth from good to bad to in-between & back again, & the companies will certainly tempt you with ever cooler looking models, but.....
And if you join us in any of the Historicals? You're stuff will be good forever. For ex; your grandchildren will be able to use your WWII minis.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Magic players, don't want to buy in, typically. Don't want to put in the time to make the models or paint and really don't like the length of games in warhammer and time spent. These are very different games and appeal to different people. I get that there will be some overlap but out of the hundreds of magic players I know, maybe 5 got into warhammer.

More than half of our gaming club, including me, were MtG players long before we started with 40k. Many were recruited from a kitchen table magic round that used to be run by one of our members, some more were recruited by from other MtG rounds who thought it was interesting. The allure of the game is that you still play a tactical game similar to magic, except it's more complex and beautiful due to actual miniatures moving in three dimensional space.

If anything, MtG and P&P groups are the place to recruit people into the game. Nerds like to nerd.

During earlier editions the biggest challenge was keeping people in the hobby once they realized what a gakshow the rules and balance were. If you are used to MtG levels or rules writing, 5th-7th edition felt like kindergardeners making up rules on the fly for a game of make believe. Many players getting mad if you used a combo or optimized your lists (something perfectly normal in MtG) didn't help either, but luckily this is slowly disappearing with better balance.
And before you waste your time writing a post about how bad MtG is/was - 40k was still that much worse.

 Jidmah wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Magic players, don't want to buy in, typically. Don't want to put in the time to make the models or paint and really don't like the length of games in warhammer and time spent. These are very different games and appeal to different people. I get that there will be some overlap but out of the hundreds of magic players I know, maybe 5 got into warhammer.

Many players getting mad if you used a combo or optimized your lists (something perfectly normal in MtG) didn't help either, but luckily this is slowly disappearing with better balance.

LOL good one, you don't actually believe that do you?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Magic players, don't want to buy in, typically. Don't want to put in the time to make the models or paint and really don't like the length of games in warhammer and time spent. These are very different games and appeal to different people. I get that there will be some overlap but out of the hundreds of magic players I know, maybe 5 got into warhammer.

Many players getting mad if you used a combo or optimized your lists (something perfectly normal in MtG) didn't help either, but luckily this is slowly disappearing with better balance.

LOL good one, you don't actually believe that do you?

8th and 9th may be an unbalanced mess, but they are a playable unbalanced mess which is more than what I can say of previous editions.

ccs wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

Magic players, don't want to buy in, typically. Don't want to put in the time to make the models or paint and really don't like the length of games in warhammer and time spent. These are very different games and appeal to different people. I get that there will be some overlap but out of the hundreds of magic players I know, maybe 5 got into warhammer.

We've long recruited new minis gamers from amongst the card players at the various shops.
Some are people outgrowing Pokemon & Yugio.
Alot though have been MTG players who've grown tired of dumping $$$ into the game & having their cards continually cycle out.

Our sales pitch is simple. Yeah, the upfront cost seems high. (especially for GW stuff) But you're stuff will virtually never rotate out.
10/15/20 years from now? You'll still be able to use 90%+ of whatever you bought today. Now the rules might shift back & forth from good to bad to in-between & back again, & the companies will certainly tempt you with ever cooler looking models, but.....
And if you join us in any of the Historicals? You're stuff will be good forever. For ex; your grandchildren will be able to use your WWII minis.

As well we've gotten some. However none of them didn't know what warhammer was before hand, making a magic deck not really a key component to bring them in as they happen in the same store. They know exactly how much it costs and warhammer isn't exactly a safe bet that things won't rotate out with legends. You could say that to people but it'd be false and with drastic flux in power from book to book, edition to edition you can't even say with truth buy things once and you are good forever, as you aren't.

Historicals, you'd be correct about but many around here bar a few aren't huge fans of that, I am but I'm in the extreme minority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Magic players, don't want to buy in, typically. Don't want to put in the time to make the models or paint and really don't like the length of games in warhammer and time spent. These are very different games and appeal to different people. I get that there will be some overlap but out of the hundreds of magic players I know, maybe 5 got into warhammer.

More than half of our gaming club, including me, were MtG players long before we started with 40k. Many were recruited from a kitchen table magic round that used to be run by one of our members, some more were recruited by from other MtG rounds who thought it was interesting. The allure of the game is that you still play a tactical game similar to magic, except it's more complex and beautiful due to actual miniatures moving in three dimensional space.

If anything, MtG and P&P groups are the place to recruit people into the game. Nerds like to nerd.

During earlier editions the biggest challenge was keeping people in the hobby once they realized what a gakshow the rules and balance were. If you are used to MtG levels or rules writing, 5th-7th edition felt like kindergardeners making up rules on the fly for a game of make believe. Many players getting mad if you used a combo or optimized your lists (something perfectly normal in MtG) didn't help either, but luckily this is slowly disappearing with better balance.
And before you waste your time writing a post about how bad MtG is/was - 40k was still that much worse.

Why would you assume I'd say how bad magic was/is ? I played Magic for a long time. I obviously thought it was good enough to put a lot of time into. Nerds can want to nerd but with my experience the games are so different that MtG players like the quicker games, no real set up or cost. Once upon a time 40k didn't need constant fees to maintain, that isn't this time however. The editions rotate around quicker than before, models go from good to bad faster and start up is so high.

Is it cheaper to maintain marginally with warhammer over magic ? Yes it is, however maintaining both are awful expensive. Which is something else that keeps too much cross over for many. If they love magic, they want to keep up with that and that costs. If they love warhammer multiple armies and keeping up with burn and churn rules that also costs a lot.

We are just of course going around with personal experience and I think most people who played warhammer with me have at least played or dabbled with Magic. It really depends on if they want to mostly leave one for the other which sunken cost tends to keep most magic players in magic mainly, with just a side interest in warhammer as the start up just scares many away, in my neck of the woods.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Why would you assume I'd say how bad magic was/is ?

Being on dakka this long comes with some experience
I also wasn't addressing you in specific, but the reader in general.

I played Magic for a long time. I obviously thought it was good enough to put a lot of time into. Nerds can want to nerd but with my experience the games are so different that MtG players like the quicker games, no real set up or cost. Once upon a time 40k didn't need constant fees to maintain, that isn't this time however. The editions rotate around quicker than before, models go from good to bad faster and start up is so high.

Is it cheaper to maintain marginally with warhammer over magic ? Yes it is, however maintaining both are awful expensive. Which is something else that keeps too much cross over for many. If they love magic, they want to keep up with that and that costs. If they love warhammer multiple armies and keeping up with burn and churn rules that also costs a lot.

Most of us started playing magic in school or college, 40k was for rich kids or people who had armies handed down from their siblings. None of us started before having a 'real' job.

We are just of course going around with personal experience and I think most people who played warhammer with me have at least played or dabbled with Magic. It really depends on if they want to mostly leave one for the other which sunken cost tends to keep most magic players in magic mainly, with just a side interest in warhammer as the start up just scares many away, in my neck of the woods.

IMO the sunken cost is not much of an issue for MtG, if you stop spending money, the hobby will eventually invalidate everything you have. Most of the cards I have are mostly completely worthless today with a few constantly rising in value. You don't really shelf cards in magic in hopes that they will get good again - once they go into the binder, they usually stay there.

Ah well see, that is why I always traded MtG cards like the stock market. Keeping an eye on the different formats to trade low for cards that would shoot up when they rotated out of standard or cash out early at the highest levels for standard cards that would drop a lot when they leave standard.

My binder when I got out, with very few standard legal cards I still floated for a a few thousand, though it has been awhile and yeah I got into warhammer way after Magic which was to start up much cheaper which is the better draw for that game right out the gate.

I'll tell you what was a great investment of time and money, D and D miniatures. Was like a skirmish pre painted models game that Wizards put out for a time, ran a tournament scene for. Put in a few hundred and some smart trades for the key money models and ended up sinking maybe $400, sold it on the way out before the market dropped out for around $2000 or so if I remember correctly. Add in the fun with the game I had, was a great experience.

Side note I know, but just saying sometimes cashing out of an old hobby for a new one can be a positive experience. Sometimes even those old MtG cards can surprise you, some utter trash can sky rocket out of no where.

Heh, I stopped playing competitive during Alara because four-color-best-cards meta was absolutely stupidly boring. After that I did pretty much the opposite of what you were doing - whenever standard rotated I picked up all the power cards which rotated out and were cheap as chips because of that, I rarely paid more than $4 for a card, most expensive card I had I got out of packs or drafts.

That said, I still have the 30 something decks I build for our casual round and since they are roughly the same powerlevel, I can just use them as a stand-alone game. I didn't leave MtG because I stopped liking it, so I never felt the need to "cash out".