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Yes, and I can trust my molds enough to pour resin in it and leave the room for 4 hours.

All I'm trying to imply is 3d printing and 'traditional' miniature making are simply two sides of the same coin. They'll have their pro's and con's, and before any groundbreaking breakthrough in 3d printing technology emerges (i.e. it can take a 2d photo of an object, translate it to 3d model and can replicate it with 99.99% accuracy) they will continue to be two sides of the same coin.

 Overread wrote:

 Valander wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There's already a couple print-only companies including a loot crate type thing with a dozen minis a month. Last I saw the person had 8 Marses and went through 3 print runs a day which is probably already better than what a single person can handle with spin casting.

There's definitely that, too. Once you start a print, you can go do something else. Including go to bed and check on it in the morning. Not something you can do with resin casting or metal spin casting.

Wait you're saying there comes a point where you can leave the printer printing and not come back every half hour to make sure its still printing?

Haha, yes. It takes a few tries getting used to it, since I know when I first got mine, too, I sat there and watched it far more intently than needed. Once a little of the "ooh, shiny new toy, COOOL" wears off, yeah, you can start it then wander off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
Yes, and I can trust my molds enough to pour resin in it and leave the room for 4 hours.

All I'm trying to imply is 3d printing and 'traditional' miniature making are simply two sides of the same coin. They'll have their pro's and con's, and before any groundbreaking breakthrough in 3d printing technology emerges (i.e. it can take a 2d photo of an object, translate it to 3d model and can replicate it with 99.99% accuracy) they will continue to be two sides of the same coin.

I don't think such a groundbreaking tech change is necessarily required, but I do agree that they're more or less different sides of the same coin. But your earlier comment was implying that 3d printing as production was "only suitable for prototypes" and not production. I don't think this is the case currently, nor do I think it will be the case as things progress in the technology and resin/printer costs come down a bit more, even. Will it 100% supplant resin casting? Extremely unlikely, since I'm sure some shops won't want to make that shift. Will it be as economical as resin casting? I posit that it already is.

No, I was implying that there is certain advantages to be had when you mix the two production methods together, and that such route is the best way to maximize the value of your 3d printer in a medium-to-large scale production line.

The maintenance bill for 3d print shop, even for medium scale, is nothing to scoff at.

Oh and don't forget about Murphy's law. When one machine goes down, all the other machines seems to always follow suit until there's one working machine remaining.

 skchsan wrote:
No, I was implying that there is certain advantages to be had when you mix the two production methods together, and that such route is the best way to maximize the value of your 3d printer in a medium-to-large scale production line.

Ok... that's not how I read this:

 skchsan wrote:
Aside from rapid prototypes, I simply don't see how 3d printing can become more economical than 'traditional' production. 3d printing is simply a means to produce products that can't be produced via other means (i.e. CNC). The way I see it, 3d printing is more versatile version of vacuum forming without the need to set up your negatives to form the positive.

Apologies if I misread, but that certainly sounded like you were saying that 3d printing as production was not something that could be economically viable, only for production of masters. I provided a counter point to that, based on a lot of research I've done in that area, and experience. But now we're changing goalposts.

The maintenance bill for 3d print shop, even for medium scale, is nothing to scoff at.

Oh and don't forget about Murphy's law. When one machine goes down, all the other machines seems to always follow suit until there's one working machine remaining.

And silicone molds will all fail at the same time, and so will all your vacuum chambers.

If you don't want to jump into any 3d printing as production, that's totally fine; nobody is making you. At this point, though, it sounds to me like you're just trying to find more excuses to try to back up your thought that it will never be equal to resin casting for the same level of production runs, in terms of economy (cost, labor, time, etc.?).

Quite the contrary. I believe 3d printing should be embraced as a technology that augments the existing workflow, rather than outright replacing it.

Perhaps I wasnt being specific enough: the question was "why must 3d printing need to completely replace traditional method in order to be more profitable in your opinion?"

I think 3D printing has a place and can be economical under certain circumstances. I don't think anyone is going to get as big as GW using 3D printing as their primary manufacturing method, but perhaps a company of Privateer Press or Mantics size would be able to leverage it within the next decade as a preferred manufacturing methodology, assuming the costs and production times intersect with product demand correctly.

I think the real "near term" value of 3D printing to this industry isn't 3D printing models, but rather 3D printing molds - once that production process becomes viable and economical, the costs of injection molded plastics are going to plummet. At that point, whether or not 3d printing can ever compete with injection molding basically becomes irrelevant.

There is also the matter of logistics: the current methods of production tend to produce stuff from a single place and then ship it wherever, but with the rising costs and uncertainties of international shipping that way seems to be problematic.

With 3d printing, you can outsource production to local partners, do away with production altogether and have it done by the client or simply produce "locally" yourself in a way that seems quite a bit easier and faster than any tradicional method. It would be similar to current PoD of books, and consequently it would also cut significantly on warehousing costs.

When you said that a company can't became big as GW already nlt by printing, remember that videogame companies are the most profitable in the world (with social media) and neither produce anything physical.

This idea that there is some sort of intrinsic value to physically produced items is, basically, wrong. It's not the 3d printing, it's the world going in that direction.

Albertorius wrote:There is also the matter of logistics: the current methods of production tend to produce stuff from a single place and then ship it wherever, but with the rising costs and uncertainties of international shipping that way seems to be problematic.

With 3d printing, you can outsource production to local partners, do away with production altogether and have it done by the client or simply produce "locally" yourself in a way that seems quite a bit easier and faster than any tradicional method. It would be similar to current PoD of books, and consequently it would also cut significantly on warehousing costs.

True, but the more you outsource the greater your support costs are going to be. So sure you don't have to produce and then ship from one site, but at the same time you now have less direct control over manufacture and quality control. Wargamers and model makers are some of the most fussy customers who really will spot tiny defects in the model. If you're going international and having regional producers then that can also throw up a whole host of other issues. It could be similar to companies that have issues with overseas factories, only now you're dealing with dozens of small local producers.

Cybtroll wrote:When you said that a company can't became big as GW already nlt by printing, remember that videogame companies are the most profitable in the world (with social media) and neither produce anything physical.

This idea that there is some sort of intrinsic value to physically produced items is, basically, wrong. It's not the 3d printing, it's the world going in that direction.

True but part of the reason video games have become more and more profitable and been able to invest more and more is because their market grew phenomenally. As much as GW's market has grown over the last years, its nothing compared to something like CoD. And that's just one video game brand. Plus its important to note that the video game industry is very volatile. Many firms, even if they release successful games, can often fold, collapse or merge/get bought out by others. Heck its how EA built itself up; regular reliable annual sports game licences and releases gave them a firm foundation of guaranteed profit each year and whilst firms around them wobbled, EA swooped in and bought them up.

The other issue is that each year you can release a new sports game or a new RTS game or such and its an entirely new product that customers want. Wargamers are not the same. Whilst many will upgrade to new sculpts, you can't double tap them every year or even every other year. Eventually you just can't sell the same wargamer another alternative marine sculpt. They have a finite limit point. Now granted if you could pre-paint those models out of the printer that would increase that limit cap considerably; but you'd still likely hit practical limits for gamers.

 Overread wrote:

Albertorius wrote:There is also the matter of logistics: the current methods of production tend to produce stuff from a single place and then ship it wherever, but with the rising costs and uncertainties of international shipping that way seems to be problematic.

With 3d printing, you can outsource production to local partners, do away with production altogether and have it done by the client or simply produce "locally" yourself in a way that seems quite a bit easier and faster than any tradicional method. It would be similar to current PoD of books, and consequently it would also cut significantly on warehousing costs.

True, but the more you outsource the greater your support costs are going to be. So sure you don't have to produce and then ship from one site, but at the same time you now have less direct control over manufacture and quality control. Wargamers and model makers are some of the most fussy customers who really will spot tiny defects in the model. If you're going international and having regional producers then that can also throw up a whole host of other issues. It could be similar to companies that have issues with overseas factories, only now you're dealing with dozens of small local producers.

It's something that other industries are already dealing with, even in adjacent markets like RPGs (Lulu, DrivethruRPG, etc). But it's also something that works and has been working for more than a decade, now.

You're changing some problems for others, but that's kind of unavoidable either way.

There are a lot of marine lieutenants out there that would indicate the limit is quite high though.

 Cybtroll wrote:
When you said that a company can't became big as GW already nlt by printing, remember that videogame companies are the most profitable in the world (with social media) and neither produce anything physical.

This idea that there is some sort of intrinsic value to physically produced items is, basically, wrong. It's not the 3d printing, it's the world going in that direction.

You seem to have completely missed the point. Nobody is going to get as big as GW via 3D printing because 3D printing doesn't allow a business to operate at comparable scale. Even a warehouse filled to bursting with the fastest resin 3D printers wouldn't be able to churn out minis as fast as GWs plastic injection molding machines can. GW can (at least in theory) manufacture several hundred thousand kits per week, all the anycubic photons in the world operating in concert couldn't keep up with that.

As for "video game companies are the most profitable in the world" - I don't know where you get your data from but thats abolutely not true. I think you mean that they are the most profitable businesses in the entertainment industry, which is true but is not really the same thing. Anyway, trying to compare the 3d miniatures industry to software/video gaming or any of the various other industries people have tried to parallel it to is an inept comparison and shows a failure to understand how any of these industries actually operate or function, how these business models generate value, or what their products actually are.

You got it, chaos... for the foreseeable future, these are two totally differing production methods based on two different markets.

Traditional plastic kits in massive volumes can offset the high start up costs of steel molds and such, but do not allow smaller runs or unique items that may not sell thousands. Where 3D excels in quick design to production and in smaller runs - a niche that has to have been filled by silicone/metal/resin methods, which are frankly, not as reliable and cost effective as 3D printing has become lately.

It will take a revolution in printing mechanics to ever come close to chipping at the traditional plastic model piece of the pie; however, with the advent of mono and higher resolution screens, it is getting closer than ever before. But, for now, 3D still better fills the small niche void, IMHO.

The thought of distributed production partners is definitely something that's an interesting thing to consider with 3d print production. Yes, there's the QC issues and so on, but that's there with any kind of partnership. It kind of makes me wonder why there isn't more such "casting partnerships" with resin or metal casting. I'm sure there are some, but it feels like the 3d printing partner idea might actually have lower friction to kicking off somewhere. If you could find partners in various locales, you could quickly reduce import/export taxes, since things would be made in the same, or much nearer, countries. The hardest challenge there, of course, is finding reliable partners and some degree of overall Quality Control, but it's an interesting idea.

I think one of the next big jumps will be 8k resolution screens on larger printers, enabling them to get the x-y resolution that machines like the Sonic Mini 4K have. That will be a couple years, I think, before the screens are at a price point that makes them viable, but if you could get the SM4K resolution on a Saturn sized build plate, the volume you'd kick out would literally quadruple.

I'd love a larger 8K resolution screen! Of course the clash is that once you've got larger 8K screens you'll have smaller 8K screens too for even more detail!


That said I suspect that there are several reasons we don't see more distributed production

1) Postage isn't that much. Barring the last year the postal systems are pretty speedy within most countries now. Even international is pretty darn fast

2) It's likely much cheaper to keep postage as a running cost that trickles out money and then, perhaps, a simple low skill (low wages) warehouse in one or two key major international distribution centres.

3) The logistics of ensuring staff have similar machines (or the same) and moulds and access to fresh moulds (which might have to come from head-office because that's where hte masters are kept). This all might cause production delays at the local sites.

4) It might be a growth thing in that smaller firms don't need it whilst medium ones can't afford it even if they'd like it and big ones are invested into other systems entirely. So its a gap because it doesn't practically work for any of the currently established different groups.


In the end I think we are seeing with 3D, but its not so much a case of logistics and more production scale. The designers making models simply don't have investment nor desire to make and build a huge factory setup. They are designers who design. So they outsource production to various separate parties who than handle production. Though thus far there's no real display of networking. It could well be that all you licence holders for a patreon end up in the same country or region and thus whilst you might have many on the books; the global and regional impact is small

 Overread wrote:
1) Postage isn't that much. Barring the last year the postal systems are pretty speedy within most countries now. Even international is pretty darn fast

Vehemently disagree. Shipping charges (not to mention customs fees and "handling" surcharges) have been outrageous from anywhere not in the EU or China to here (within the EU) for years now. Now UK has joined the club, and on the last DrivethruRPG order (originating from the UK) UPS wanted to charge me 45 euros for a 30 euros book.

Shipping time is not the issue. Shipping costs and taxes are.

Aye but that sounds like you're importing as opposed to them going through a local warehouse/distribution centre/store in your country. As I said internally most countries are pretty affordable and between countries there are ways of lowering some costs by doing bulk shipments and having local distribution hubs. Again this might be simpler and easier and cheaper to setup than setting up an entirely new company or licencing out to a local firm for production.

 Cybtroll wrote:
When you said that a company can't became big as GW already nlt by printing, remember that videogame companies are the most profitable in the world (with social media) and neither produce anything physical.

This idea that there is some sort of intrinsic value to physically produced items is, basically, wrong. It's not the 3d printing, it's the world going in that direction.

I think if a company is going to get as big as GW it's going to have to pursue a similar word-of-mouth marketing and slow, gradual development rather than trying to grow to that size overnight (or even less than a decade).

 Overread wrote:
Aye but that sounds like you're importing as opposed to them going through a local warehouse/distribution centre/store in your country. As I said internally most countries are pretty affordable and between countries there are ways of lowering some costs by doing bulk shipments and having local distribution hubs. Again this might be simpler and easier and cheaper to setup than setting up an entirely new company or licencing out to a local firm for production.

Well, that's what most companies do, so... yes.

In the near future, if not already, I can see it being an option for terrain companies. Other than the persons who want to pay for injection mold precision smoothed parts or flat-pack card/mdf, most FDM options are becoming "good enough" for the general market. Particularly if people are already content to use popsickle stick birdhouse buildings and painted cans, print lines aren't too inconvenient (and can be worked into the meshes if one knows how). Some meshes can be scaled to different game sizes, there's some interesting options I've seen where people make cobblestone texture rollers doing continuous pattern roads with traditional media. Depending on what material is used it's possible to make a negative from files and create molds for rocks like those sold in hobby railroad stores or similar to hirst-arts stuff (which prob isn't great for them unless they're doing that already).

 PondaNagura wrote:
In the near future, if not already, I can see it being an option for terrain companies. Other than the persons who want to pay for injection mold precision smoothed parts or flat-pack card/mdf, most FDM options are becoming "good enough" for the general market. Particularly if people are already content to use popsickle stick birdhouse buildings and painted cans, print lines aren't too inconvenient (and can be worked into the meshes if one knows how). Some meshes can be scaled to different game sizes, there's some interesting options I've seen where people make cobblestone texture rollers doing continuous pattern roads with traditional media. Depending on what material is used it's possible to make a negative from files and create molds for rocks like those sold in hobby railroad stores or similar to hirst-arts stuff (which prob isn't great for them unless they're doing that already).

I can think of a few different patreon's which have that sort of business model. And a couple of sites likewise. Sadly never gotten around to testing them myself but they seem decent enough.



To put in my two cents on the original topic. Most likely yes there will be that point where a midlevel 3d printer can give you a high quality output at a decent speed. Comparing it to regular printing. At one point they were slow, chunky and loud with a terrible resolution and no colour. Now you can print out photos with decent results from many of them. I'd imagine the old style store where you take in your film or disposable cameras to have it developed would be seeing a decrease in business. If they're still around at all.

And we're already seeing people working on 3D scanning tech from various methods.

There will always be a place for making something with your hands rather than manipulating a digital file and printing it. However, as younger people grow up with a new technology it will eventually become the norm while the older alternative becomes niche.

On the other hand, buying a pre-manufactured item is easier and usually situationally faster than printing it yourself.

How many people buy bread even though you can get a bread machine to make it for you at home? How many people make bread by hand? Most people buy the pre-made bread because it is easier and faster and cheaper.

Sure but I think I'd bake my own bread if store bought bread took two weeks to get here and I had to pay customs on it.

Pretty much. I think it'll be even more popular in areas that have to pay a premium for... some reason? The cost of a box of marines is much more in AUS than in USA even with exchange rates factored in. I'm sure there are reasons but it's still kinda meh. Especially considering wages just aren't going up these days.

Another thing I've been kinda noticing, especially when it comes to 6mm and fleetscale stuff is that since people 3D print their entire armies, kitbashing has kinda (more or less) gone extinct.

Yes, some (like me) do it digitally, so combining STL files to turn them into something new. But I'm more referring to old school kitbashing / scratchbuilding.

I wonder why that is though, does it also have to do with the printed material itself? The impression I get from it is that it doesn't really allow for easy cutting and combining with other bits. Does anyone of you here have experiences with that?

Both PLA and resin are both a total pain to cut. That probably accounts for most of it. In my experience the main reasons to convert are to get new poses, weapon swaps and head swaps. These are much easier to do in the 3d programme before printing.

I'm in agreement that 3D printing your models is still a small-time thing, and will take a long while to reach fully into the mainstream. Larger companies like Modipheus are dipping their toes into the water as a way to deliver models and terrain for game systems where it probably would not be very economical to dedicated the molds to making them. However it will take a long time before it starts affecting the bottom line of a major company like Games Workshop or Warlord.

I think it is more likely that 3D printed terrain will possibly be the area that impacts on the larger companies first, especially for games like Flames of War and Bolt Action where historic buildings are just as easy to design for a 3D printer as it is for a resin cast.

 Flinty wrote:
Both PLA and resin are both a total pain to cut. That probably accounts for most of it. In my experience the main reasons to convert are to get new poses, weapon swaps and head swaps. These are much easier to do in the 3d programme before printing.

Hence the disappearance of physical kitbashing / scratchbuilding. There are of course the usual head swaps and such, but I'm talking about the more elaborate conversions, especially when looking at stuff like GorkaMorka / Necromunda or more narrative driven stuff. Think of INQ28/INQ6/Blanchitsu. I've noticed that in that community 3D printing is still very...well....not that omnipresent as it is in the Epic/BFG communities.

Well, up to a point it stands to reason: Epic/BFG don't have hundreds of ready available plastic sprues from which snag parts for conversions.

I would guess many people feel it's much easier to work with hips for converting stuff instead of trying to use cured UV resin.

And they probably are right.

kitbashing became really a thing with HIPS while with metal or PU before that everything but a simple swap was only for the very advanced builders

and the need for it comes from the original model kit not having the stuff you want
now being more dynamic with most weapin options available, there is also no need to kitbash outside of doing a specific theme were a simple swap of parts is enough

and with 3D printing, why doing hard work with adjusting the model if you can just print it right in the first place if you change the file

and this is the main point of 3d printing in the first place, that you can print the stuff you want/need instead of needing to work with the models someone else has made that are not the way you want them (but are the only ones available that come close)