Will 3D printing kill off traditional miniatures?

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**meatybtz**

Nurglitch wrote:
GW has their IP protected, but there are other IPs. There's sculpts out there producing stuff.

Not really, they changed to stupid names because they LOST the lawsuit against a bit's maker. You can make as many Space Marine parts or knock-offs you want, as long as they are Space Marines and not Primaris Space Marines or whatever.

That's also why Primaris came out. It was an IP thing.

I've got 3D prints of Primaris marines, though, and side by side you can't tell which one is non-GW unless you have them unpainted. But since they are NOT Primaris marines in name, but name something else, just following an "aesthetic" lol GW gets the short end of that stick. Nothing they can do........

You cannot copyright an "aesthetic". I will say some of the Dark Eldar sculpts beat out the GW sculpts by a long shot. That's saying something considering many of those sculpts are pretty good, over all, and highly detailed.

But 3D printing is not a replacement. It is an augmentation to the classic model. There is just too much thinking and tweaking involved. Same reason that despite excellent free software you don't see everyone making great 3D art. It's an "art" unto itself.

**Nurglitch**

I think what I meant to say, in my clumsy fashion, was that there's a mass of non-GW stuff people can print. They don't have to restrict themselves to trying to make GW stuff.

**Malika2**

Nurglitch wrote:
I think what I meant to say, in my clumsy fashion, was that there's a mass of non-GW stuff people can print. They don't have to restrict themselves to trying to make GW stuff.

True, but for many indie companies the GW market is the safest one to cater to. But I do agree that there is tons of other interesting stuff out there.

**lord_blackfang**

The RPG market is vastly larger than the GW knockoff market (which by its IP-infringing nature is also largely underground and/or non-profit).

**Malika2**

But then that would be RPG knockoffs?

**lord_blackfang**

Malika2 wrote:
But then that would be RPG knockoffs?

Not really... WotC doesn't sell an official medieval fantasy village or an official dungeon, it barely sells a few official goblins and outside of a handful of copyrighted monsters the focus of their IP is not on visual design.

**jivardi**

Valander wrote:
Overread wrote:

Now it might be that 3D printers replace regular spincasting and plastic injection moulding. AT the very least they might allow for modest sized firms to use them as a different production type. But with the long hours to print I'm not sure if it would be practical for firms like GW to shift from plastic injection moulds for mass market. Resin printers are slower so you'd need many many machines and they are more labour intensive - you've got to walk to each machine; remove models; remove them from supports without breaking; wash; cure; setup the machine for the next.

For large-scale production, like GW and the bigger firms need, direct 3d printing isn't cost effective, for sure. If you're doing thousands of models of a given sprue, plastic injection is the most cost effective (even though it has the highest set up costs in the molds). For smaller indie companies, who sell maybe 100 of a given model in a year, I think direct 3d printing is actually a pretty good option, since you can "print on demand" as needed to fill orders and maybe add a little backstock. This was talked about a bit in the other thread I linked, with some insight from folks who have done it to fulfill Kickstarters and so on. "Boutique" shops would likely benefit the most from this method, but there's definitely a point where the volume needed would push you towards injection molding (though I'm not sure right now about the metal spin casting cost comparison; resin casting is pretty close for low to medium volumes, including labor time).

I'm sure even Reaper does enough volume that it's still a better cost for them to do the molds and injection runs, particularly with their Bones line.

THIS. Having worked as an injection molder making rubber and plastic plugs for electrical components the initial startup cost for injection molding isn't cheap. Your average dye is going to be several thousand USD to have made for whatever part you need molded but it will pay for itself within a few weeks time with the thousands of components that can be formed from that one dye. And fast too. 3D printers will never match the speed of injection. GW's machines can print 1000's of Primaris SM's (just to use as an example) in a single 8 hour shift by anybody capable enough of pushing a few buttons. I don't see 3D printers being able to do that, ever. So for private citizens and maybe even small Kickstarters 3D printers are the future. But I just don't see any one entity taking over the miniature market from GW with 3D printing.

If a group of people want to unseat GW the best way is injection molding, not 3D printing.

**Nurglitch**

Now, stuff like Tabletop Simulator and virtual reality, that would have more of an impact, I think.

I don't think injection molding is going to work because GW's course has been very bootstrappy, building on prior work. I don't think GW would have ever gotten to plastic injection molding if they hadn't built their IP on metal and resin miniatures, and they built those on the back of selling other people's stuff. That they started off as a retailer who branched into producing their own stuff, and gradually worked their way bigger and bigger over the course of several decades is not easily replicable. Especially when GW already exists.

**meatybtz**

Overread wrote:
Having bought a 3D printer recently, I think we are a LONG way off if it ever happens

1) The cost of the printer, accessories and all the rest easily equals a 2K army in costs. Remembering that you still need all the same tools for model cleanup, assembly and painting after you get the model out. So you don't save on any of the standard hobby accessories
Whilst you can argue that the printer saves money in the long run on models, there's still a very steep upfront cost just for the hobby alone. Very steep compared to regular model buying from a store

2) It takes HOURS to make a model. Granted smaller infantry you can load up the build plate; but still in the time to print a few parts of a large model you could drive to a store, buy it, bring it home, clean and build it in less time than it takes to print.
Bigger, higher resolution printers will reduce this somewhat, but you're still looking at hours upon hours to print

3) It's technical. There's a rafter of settings for setting up the printer digitally and that's assuming you stick to 1 brand of resin. Change brands and you've got to start all over again. Failures can be caused by several aspects and there's a steep learning curve in getting good prints out of the machine.
Add this to the hours to print aspect and there's a higher level of frustration for those who might want a more immediate result or at least success.
Again your store bought model resolves all that in seconds

4) I don't "see" the market for 3D model design for companies. Right now almost all the 3D models I see for sale are sold by basically one to a few designers and someone doing some support work. Basically REALLY small teams.
Unless a company could get their own machines to sell (and honestly GW might be the only firm big enough to attempt that barring one of the 3D printing firms doing it themselves) or find other ways to monetize I can't is it offering the same level of growth.
At least unless files could be limited to total numbers of prints that can be made from them -but when you factor in the calibration and high chance for a fail (even a bad temp or not shaking the resin could cause a fail) I can't see that being attractive nor practical.

Overall I see it being niche for a very long time to come. Especially as its not child friendly in the least; which is a key demographic for growing a miniature range (or you're relying on poaching GW customers).

I'd honestly say its perhaps more risk to things like Reaper Miniatures and the like; companies focusing on making models for DnD and such. But even there I can't see it taking off big - esp as "the hobby" is often a much smaller part of their setup.

Now it might be that 3D printers replace regular spincasting and plastic injection moulding. AT the very least they might allow for modest sized firms to use them as a different production type. But with the long hours to print I'm not sure if it would be practical for firms like GW to shift from plastic injection moulds for mass market. Resin printers are slower so you'd need many many machines and they are more labour intensive - you've got to walk to each machine; remove models; remove them from supports without breaking; wash; cure; setup the machine for the next.

There's room for advancing and room for growth and its on the grow right now (my own machine is living proof of that). But I think we are a very long way from 3D printing being the revolution that change the market for big firms and casual gamers (of which there are many)

Agree with all except the replacement for spin-casting or resin casting. 3D printers are for making "Masters". Resin injection molding is fast and cheap, repeatable and reliable. 3D printing, even with all the right setting is a crap-shoot. What worked last time might fail this time due to "unforeseen" issues occurring. What 3D printing allows is for a smaller firm to rapid prototype their models, refine, and produce a quality master to cast from. Ideal for the small team company.

**skchsan**

meatybtz wrote:

Agree with all except the replacement for spin-casting or resin casting. 3D printers are for making "Masters". Resin injection molding is fast and cheap, repeatable and reliable. 3D printing, even with all the right setting is a crap-shoot. What worked last time might fail this time due to "unforeseen" issues occurring. What 3D printing allows is for a smaller firm to rapid prototype their models, refine, and produce a quality master to cast from. Ideal for the small team company.

Exactly my sentiments.

Wait for the "but resin molds fail all the time too and needs to be remade!!!!" argument.

**kodos**

this is not the point

most people think that in 5 years everyone will have at least one 3D printer at home
therefore all the advantages for making many models within a short time reliable are not important anymore

everyone who wants to have an army will just print it on his own and there is no need for mass-producing models any more

I don't see this happening very soon as there is also a trend for less work on minis (easy to build, pre-painted etc)

also it is more like 15 years until 3D printing reaches a point were it will be a standard machine for every household

**lord_blackfang**

meatybtz wrote:
Agree with all except the replacement for spin-casting or resin casting. 3D printers are for making "Masters". Resin injection molding is fast and cheap, repeatable and reliable. 3D printing, even with all the right setting is a crap-shoot. What worked last time might fail this time due to "unforeseen" issues occurring. What 3D printing allows is for a smaller firm to rapid prototype their models, refine, and produce a quality master to cast from. Ideal for the small team company.

We've been told over and over and over that resin models are expensive because casting is labour intensive and requires a high degree of skill. I daresay printing in a properly controlled environment and not a garage with random temperature swings and stuff is faster, easier and more reliable.

**kodos**

there is a difference between silicon mold casting and spin-casting

for spin casting you need a factory and once set up it is faster, easier and more reliable

"classic" resin casting is something everyone can do at home
and this is also were 3D printing comes in, it will replace the classic labour/time intensive casting of resin that everyone can do at home

**Overread**

kodos wrote:

"classic" resin casting is something everyone can do at home
and this is also were 3D printing comes in, it will replace the classic labour/time intensive casting of resin that everyone can do at home

Resin 3D printing is not for everyone at this stage.

The resins are generally toxic and require good ventilation when in operation to provide a safe environment for the operator. There is a technical setup since even if you copy-cat settings from others using the same machine and the same resin, variations in machine tolerance and local conditions (eg temperature) can result in minor variations in the best settings. You have to calibrate the machine and that requires not just doing a calibration but studying the results, understanding and adjusting and testing again. It's not plug and play er print.

After that you get failures; even well supported models can fail sometimes. Again a random quirk of bad luck; a slightly different resin than the one that was used to print the tests prints; wrong temperature; a slight lean on the machine; your FEP not being perfectly clean; your build plate not scuffed up enough; 1 second off on your bottom exposure time that works half the time but not every time.

There are multiple points of technical and failure potential within the process. Ontop of that unless you've got a huge build plate you are going to have to print things at a steady rate. YES you can print a lot, but you can still go to the GW store, buy a model, bring it home, clip it off the sprue, clean it and build it likely in less time than many will take to print. Sure if you compare infantry you might find the printer favourable (you've still got to clean them of course so every step after removal from the sprue is the same); but when parts of a dragon might take 10-20 hours you're looking at a long print time.

I think there's also a question of scale of the hobby. Those looking to get into the hobby afresh can spend as much on a 2K army as they can on a printer and all the materials that go with it. Thing is when you start the hobby you're not likely looking much beyond that one army. A few might, but many won't be thinking "Ohh I'll make 20 armies and have a dozen dragons and 50 different wizards and and and and.....). Their needs are smaller. Many getting into 3D printing are far deeper into the hobby. They've already got one or more armies or an extensive collection of models for DnD. They are branching out within the hobby for new avenues and such rather than being at the cusp.

And the thing is I don't see the 3D printer taking over home production of anything else really. At this stage it would requite a monumental shift in a huge amount of industry and social and market areas to shift from basically a disposable manufacture society into a home manufacture society. Yes it could happen, but it would require massive shifts in multiple sectors. It might come as a steady creeping process, but perhaps not for decades even if we reach a point where 3D printers are like Startrek Replicators. Lets not forget consumer 3D printing was already held back by established industry for years

**kodos**

one reason why I said above that I see this happening more like 15 years in the future

other people are thinking this shift will happen in the next 1-2 years, and every gaming club will have 5-10 larger resin printers to get armies and terrain done for people in the club.
and in 2-3 years every wargamer will have a Resin printer at home and GW will only sell STL files instead of models and focusing on the IP

Resin printing has never been for everyone and 10 years ago we have seen a similar hype with everyone made their own scenic bases at home because it was "easy" and "cheap"

**Albertorius**

Overread wrote:
kodos wrote:

"classic" resin casting is something everyone can do at home
and this is also were 3D printing comes in, it will replace the classic labour/time intensive casting of resin that everyone can do at home

Resin 3D printing is not for everyone at this stage.

Absolutely, printers aren't Star Trek replicators. Currently printing is a hobby itself.

That said, currently I don't see much of a difference between resin mold casting and 3d printing. Each method has advantages and disadvantages.

**Nurglitch**

3D Printing seems more available than resin mold casting. My brother used to do resin mold casting, and I should maybe talk to him about how we could set up production in his garage.

**MDSW**

Commercial 3D printers have been around since the late 80's that I know of (a company was up the road from where I used to work way back and it blew my mind back then...) So it has taken technology about, what, 30+ years to make it personally available and affordable to the masses? So, I think the 15 year mark is fairly accurate for it to be much more widely recognized, available, and machines producing consistently great results.

**skchsan**

Albertorius wrote:
Overread wrote:
kodos wrote:

"classic" resin casting is something everyone can do at home
and this is also were 3D printing comes in, it will replace the classic labour/time intensive casting of resin that everyone can do at home

Resin 3D printing is not for everyone at this stage.

Absolutely, printers aren't Star Trek replicators. Currently printing is a hobby itself.

That said, currently I don't see much of a difference between resin mold casting and 3d printing. Each method has advantages and disadvantages.

Currently, the biggest factor is that resin molds are infinitely scalable with sweat equity whereas 3d printers are limited by the number of machines in place. So, scaling in mold making is time dependent whereas in 3d printing it is expenditure dependent. There is also advantage in resin molding in that it can mitigate failures with relative ease (repour resin), whereas failed prints can fail at 1st layer or at 23 hours into a 24 hour print.

**Flinty**

And resin models can have other QA problems such as bubbles, misalignment or warpage that only become apparent after the moulds are opened.

**skchsan**

Flinty wrote:
And resin models can have other QA problems such as bubbles, misalignment or warpage that only become apparent after the moulds are opened.

Yes, but you can say the same about 3d printers. There are just as much, if not more, ways that can cause 3d prints to fail.

The bottom line is, both casting and printing technologies can benefit from each other as far as small to medium scale production goes. Casting augmented by 3d printed master can drastically reduce the time it takes to create a master for molds. 3D printing augmented by casting can drastically increase the rate of production.

There's no reason, at least at this current time now and within immediate foreseeable future, to completely take over the casting processes in order to "improve" production rate via 3d printers (because it doesn't. there's a reason why medium scale board game makers create proofs using 3d printers then outsource injection molders for mass production instead of going to, say, shapeways).

People who practice pure 3d printer operation is merely a proof of concept, and not necessarily that of financial gains purposes. The numbers simply don't work out unless resin printers can print at the rate of casting resin curing, especially for large pieces. And even when resin printers can keep up with rate of curing, you can still incorporate casting into the workflow to multiply the production rates.

The old adage stands - time is money, friend.

Only once 3d printers can produce models at fraction of time spent (approximately half) on casting process will it be able to overtake the industry.

Plus, think about the repercussions of 3d modelers selling STL/gcodes instead of tangible goods - what's to prevent a 3rd party printer that mass produces using those files then selling the printed tangible goods? Policies? Fine prints? Law suits?

**jivardi**

I know not everyone plays in tournaments but I really don't see people printing off entire armies a thing to kill GW either.

As long as GW stores exist and GW sanctioned tournaments exist you will still need to own GW models to play in those stores/at those events. Perhaps GW won't exist in 15 years so maybe the 40k IP won't even exist anymore.

Not to mention GW is going to fight vigorously to defend their IP so the minute anyone puts up for sale the files for 3D printing your own "Space Marines" is when legal action will get filed. Some of the models I've seen are IMO already walking that line if not already crossed it into IP theft.

For me it's the startup cost. For the cost of a good printer and everything needed, not to mention making space for it (i live in an apartment that's already nearly too small for my current hobby setup), I can just expand one of my armies out past 2k points buying Citadel models that I know will be usable and won't cause issues if I want to expand beyond friendly games post Covid.

**_Si_**

For me resin printing has definitely changed my purchasing habits. I'm buying a lot more paint and a lot less physical models.

FDM printing is hard, it's a hobby in itself getting it set up, keeping it running, refining the settings to finally get a passable print.

Resin printing is easy. Super easy. Just be sensible, don't drink the stuff, or you know, touch it. But how much toxic crap do we play with in our hobby, it's not rocket science. And the fact I can print a full plate of 10 28mm minis at as close to makes no difference to me commercial quality in three hours or less? It's mind blowing.

Of course if the next awesome game to come out comes with kick arse official minis I'll give it a look (Stargrave springs to mind). But if they come with official minis AND official stls I know where my money would go.

Which is all fantastic. We have so many amazing options already in our hobby. As someone who started in 1990, passing around a photocopy of a photocopy of a GW trade catalogue to figure out what we wanted to buy on our one trip a month to the store, this really is a golden age. I feel blessed to be the age I am, my disposable income has lined up nicely with new tech to play with

**Albertorius**

MDSW wrote:
Commercial 3D printers have been around since the late 80's that I know of (a company was up the road from where I used to work way back and it blew my mind back then...) So it has taken technology about, what, 30+ years to make it personally available and affordable to the masses? So, I think the 15 year mark is fairly accurate for it to be much more widely recognized, available, and machines producing consistently great results.

Not technology. Licensing copyrights.

It has taken 30 years for licensing copyrights to expire on those technologies so that now any company can develop and buy their own printers using the aforementioned technologies without paying outrageous royalties for it.

Once those expired, it has taken two years to get where we are.

**MDSW**

Albertorius wrote:
MDSW wrote:
Commercial 3D printers have been around since the late 80's that I know of (a company was up the road from where I used to work way back and it blew my mind back then...) So it has taken technology about, what, 30+ years to make it personally available and affordable to the masses? So, I think the 15 year mark is fairly accurate for it to be much more widely recognized, available, and machines producing consistently great results.

Not technology. Licensing copyrights.

It has taken 30 years for licensing copyrights to expire on those technologies so that now any company can develop and buy their own printers using the aforementioned technologies without paying outrageous royalties for it.

Once those expired, it has taken two years to get where we are.

Yes, you are totally correct on the copyright angle - I did not consider it, but it has been a bit more than two years to get where we are today.

**Ketara**

All printed by some dude I just saw on Facebook. The easier and more plug and play the printers get, the worse the news for people who sell casts. The cost factor is already there, it's just the difficulty one now.

**TheWaspinator**

I'd say the biggest barrier to mainstream resin printing is the resin itself. As it stands right now, it's probably more toxic chemicals than most people want to deal with. We really need safer resins to be developed.

**Ketara**

TheWaspinator wrote:
I'd say the biggest barrier to mainstream resin printing is the resin itself. As it stands right now, it's probably more toxic chemicals than most people want to deal with. We really need safer resins to be developed.

Anycubic soybean eco-resin is supposedly EU certified toy grade. I can personally certify it barely smells at all and doesn't damage skin from an accidental drip.

**Overread**

Atlas are also doing a kickstarter semi-soon for their new Vulcan resin which is also fairly non-toxic compared to many regular resins.

**Laughing Man**

Ketara wrote:
TheWaspinator wrote:
I'd say the biggest barrier to mainstream resin printing is the resin itself. As it stands right now, it's probably more toxic chemicals than most people want to deal with. We really need safer resins to be developed.

Anycubic soybean eco-resin is supposedly EU certified toy grade. I can personally certify it barely smells at all and doesn't damage skin from an accidental drip.

Is that just the cured resin, or liquid resin as well?