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He only has a 5+ FNP.

I agree that DG don't seem OP. They're a bit too hamstrung in the ranged damage department to be OP.

The nerfs to blightlord combi-plasma and the blight hauler really hurt the output of the army. Although, I do think people are maybe leaning a little too heavily on terminators and not using enough PBC and poxwalkers.

PBCs have never been bad, but now they just seem really amazing for their points with the buff to entropy cannons. Just compare them to any similarly pointed (or even 100 point higher) space marine tank and you'll see why no one uses space marine tanks, lol.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:Morty and PBC are OP. That is about it.

Mortarion is very powerful, but I've read that he can go down very quickly with dedicated firepower, dying in the first or second round.

You have to kill him in the first or second round of the game is over. Every time I have faced him I have had overwhelming shooting firepower and was able to kill him once on turn 4 and once on turn 1. In the game I killed him on turn 4 - he killed 2 monoliths. One while on his final braket because he doesn't degrade in any meaningful way. I am not saying he is unbeatable - no unit is unbeatable. He just does too much for how hard he is to kill.


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Quasistellar wrote:
I agree that DG don't seem OP. They're a bit too hamstrung in the ranged damage department to be OP.

The nerfs to blightlord combi-plasma and the blight hauler really hurt the output of the army. Although, I do think people are maybe leaning a little too heavily on terminators and not using enough PBC and poxwalkers.

PBCs have never been bad, but now they just seem really amazing for their points with the buff to entropy cannons. Just compare them to any similarly pointed (or even 100 point higher) space marine tank and you'll see why no one uses space marine tanks, lol.

The PBC is legit OP. Compare it to a gladiator lancer. Which actually costs 25 more points...
Lancer pros - +1 to hit with main gun. Main gun more range and +1 str + 1" move.
Lancer cons - No 5++ - no -1 damage - no reroll 1's to wound - no d6 shot mortar with str 8 ap-2 flat 2 damage.

Like...how much drugs do you have to do to not realize the pbc is drastically better than the lancer by at least a +30 to 40 points margin but the lancer costs 25 more points lol. Now I'd consider using a lancer if it was 145 points.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Mortarion is 18 Wounds at T8 3+/4++/5+++ and -1 Damage.

So it takes...

Spoiler:

11 wounds at d6 damage to kill him.
6 wounds at d6+2 damage to kill him.
7 wounds at d3+3 damage to kill him.
27 wounds at D1 or D2 to kill him.

In other words, it takes, at BS3+...

66 Krak Missiles or Melta (outside half range) shots.
50 Lascannon shots.
36 Melta shots in half range.
42 Dark Lance shots.

Increase those numbers by one third to account for Miasma.

In reality you have a bunch of weapons which are not in range for anything else just shooting the big guy, some weapons which cause a mortal wound or two by rolling sixes on something, a smite or equivalent power and a bunch of units with acceptable melee which then gang up on him to take off the last 2-3 wounds. If you have actual melee monsters or can spam mortal wounds, this is even easier. Mortarion is very likely to be the closest model and to be in charge range.
Those numbers also discount army and detachment traits, people stacking offensive stratagems and buffs or debuffing Mortarion.

If you sit back and try to shoot him off the board without any risk, you are going to fail, and rightfully so. If you throw your entire weight against him, you are going to knock him over.

 Jidmah wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Mortarion is 18 Wounds at T8 3+/4++/5+++ and -1 Damage.

So it takes...

Spoiler:

11 wounds at d6 damage to kill him.
6 wounds at d6+2 damage to kill him.
7 wounds at d3+3 damage to kill him.
27 wounds at D1 or D2 to kill him.

In other words, it takes, at BS3+...

66 Krak Missiles or Melta (outside half range) shots.
50 Lascannon shots.
36 Melta shots in half range.
42 Dark Lance shots.

Increase those numbers by one third to account for Miasma.

In reality you have a bunch of weapons which are not in range for anything else just shooting the big guy, some weapons which cause a mortal wound or two by rolling sixes on something, a smite or equivalent power and a bunch of units with acceptable melee which then gang up on him to take off the last 2-3 wounds. If you have actual melee monsters or can spam mortal wounds, this is even easier. Mortarion is very likely to be the closest model and to be in charge range.
Those numbers also discount army and detachment traits, people stacking offensive stratagems and buffs or debuffing Mortarion.

If you sit back and try to shoot him off the board without any risk, you are going to fail, and rightfully so. If you throw your entire weight against him, you are going to knock him over.

I'm just providing math. If you want me to crunch the numbers on other situations (Captain or Chapter Master and Lieutenant buffs, +1 to-wound from strats, whatever) just let me know.

Spoletta wrote:
The one I saw was a DA list. Mortarion got nailed by a combination of PlasmaCeptors, Psy mortal Wounds, Smashchaplain and a couple of termie units shooting/assaulting.

That DA list was as TAC as you can get, but if you really expose a model to the full brunt of shooting, psy and melee phases of an entire army, you are going to bite the dust. Sure, if you play a monophase shooting army... sorry for your loss.

On the other end of the spectrum, my last DA opponent used a gladius tank, a storm speeder thunderstrike, ten assault helblasters with Azrael, a dark talon, a librarian and a bunch of cyclone missiles to kill Mortarion, whose main impact on the enemy army in that game was shooting 3 damage off the gladius with his pistol and covering parts of the army with -1 toughness.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm just providing math. If you want me to crunch the numbers on other situations (Captain or Chapter Master and Lieutenant buffs, +1 to-wound from strats, whatever) just let me know.

I understand. In my opinion this is an act of futility, as usually the whole enemy army is shooting, casting powers and fighting against Mortarion, not just the optimal choices.

To get some understanding of his real durability you would have to mathhammer entire lists against him.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
The PBC is legit OP. Compare it to a gladiator lancer. Which actually costs 25 more points...
Lancer pros - +1 to hit with main gun. Main gun more range and +1 str + 1" move.
Lancer cons - No 5++ - no -1 damage - no reroll 1's to wound - no d6 shot mortar with str 8 ap-2 flat 2 damage.

Like...how much drugs do you have to do to not realize the pbc is drastically better than the lancer by at least a +30 to 40 points margin but the lancer costs 25 more points lol. Now I'd consider using a lancer if it was 145 points.

Is this thread yours?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/794370.page

For those not willing to follow the link, it's a thread about Xeno complaining about how the lancer is the worst tank ever.

Youd really think that pointing out the PBC is 25 less points less than a lancer. Does the same job while being dramatically more durable/ and has an additional d6 str 8 flat 2 damage shots. You'd have no option but to agree with me. Alas though. Making good arguments doesn't matter on dakka.

 Jidmah wrote:


In reality you have a bunch of weapons which are not in range for anything else just shooting the big guy, some weapons which cause a mortal wound or two by rolling sixes on something, a smite or equivalent power and a bunch of units with acceptable melee which then gang up on him to take off the last 2-3 wounds. If you have actual melee monsters or can spam mortal wounds, this is even easier. Mortarion is very likely to be the closest model and to be in charge range.
Those numbers also discount army and detachment traits, people stacking offensive stratagems and buffs or debuffing Mortarion.

If you sit back and try to shoot him off the board without any risk, you are going to fail, and rightfully so. If you throw your entire weight against him, you are going to knock him over.

Nah. You are not. If you need even 36 Melta (i.e. maxed out Sisters Retributors burning all Cherubs) in half range on a turn the DG player failed Miasma to have a slightly better than coin-flip chance of killing him (i.e the average), that's not balanced.

If people have to a) skew so hard to even have a shot and b) manouver a points-equivalent far greater than Morty into a precise position and c) depend on a mistake/bad roll by the DG player to start with, Morty (or whatever equivalent 500 points of their army) should be gone guaruanteed, not just on a ca. 54% probability of you wasting your entire army on a failed coin-flip.

Mathematically, Multimeltas would need to go up to at least 5-6 shots each for Morty to be roughly balanced against them in point equivalent (assuming Morty also loses all force-multiplying rules such as Arch Contaminator, Re-roll 1s, Contagion, etc..).

If DG had W3 instead of W2, they would be more beatable.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


In reality you have a bunch of weapons which are not in range for anything else just shooting the big guy, some weapons which cause a mortal wound or two by rolling sixes on something, a smite or equivalent power and a bunch of units with acceptable melee which then gang up on him to take off the last 2-3 wounds. If you have actual melee monsters or can spam mortal wounds, this is even easier. Mortarion is very likely to be the closest model and to be in charge range.
Those numbers also discount army and detachment traits, people stacking offensive stratagems and buffs or debuffing Mortarion.

If you sit back and try to shoot him off the board without any risk, you are going to fail, and rightfully so. If you throw your entire weight against him, you are going to knock him over.

Nah. You are not. If you need even 36 Melta (i.e. maxed out Sisters Retributors burning all Cherubs) in half range on a turn the DG player failed Miasma to have a slightly better than coin-flip chance of killing him (i.e the average), that's not balanced.

If people have to a) skew so hard to even have a shot and b) manouver a points-equivalent far greater than Morty into a precise position and c) depend on a mistake/bad roll by the DG player to start with, Morty (or whatever equivalent 500 points of their army) should be gone guaruanteed, not just on a ca. 54% probability of you wasting your entire army on a failed coin-flip.

Mathematically, Multimeltas would need to go up to at least 5-6 shots each for Morty to be roughly balanced against them in point equivalent (assuming Morty also loses all force-multiplying rules such as Arch Contaminator, Re-roll 1s, Contagion, etc..).

Eh? Regardless of what hoops are jumped through, lists are skewed and luck is with you, you should not expect to wipe out a quarter of your opponents list in your first turn. That's a really weird way to view how 40k should be balanced.

And it's not a coin flip. It's not wasted if you don't quite kill him. It means rather than you being in a great position at the end of you first turn, you just have to bare the brunt of Mortarion being alive for a turn and finish him off easily in your turn two.

In reality Death Guard are a slow army that build momentum and power as the game goes on. It means turn one you can afford to put the bulk of your firepower into Mortarion. There aren't generally multiple immediate threats to deal with.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


In reality you have a bunch of weapons which are not in range for anything else just shooting the big guy, some weapons which cause a mortal wound or two by rolling sixes on something, a smite or equivalent power and a bunch of units with acceptable melee which then gang up on him to take off the last 2-3 wounds. If you have actual melee monsters or can spam mortal wounds, this is even easier. Mortarion is very likely to be the closest model and to be in charge range.
Those numbers also discount army and detachment traits, people stacking offensive stratagems and buffs or debuffing Mortarion.

If you sit back and try to shoot him off the board without any risk, you are going to fail, and rightfully so. If you throw your entire weight against him, you are going to knock him over.

Nah. You are not. If you need even 36 Melta (i.e. maxed out Sisters Retributors burning all Cherubs) in half range on a turn the DG player failed Miasma to have a slightly better than coin-flip chance of killing him (i.e the average), that's not balanced.

If people have to a) skew so hard to even have a shot and b) manouver a points-equivalent far greater than Morty into a precise position and c) depend on a mistake/bad roll by the DG player to start with, Morty (or whatever equivalent 500 points of their army) should be gone guaruanteed, not just on a ca. 54% probability of you wasting your entire army on a failed coin-flip.

Mathematically, Multimeltas would need to go up to at least 5-6 shots each for Morty to be roughly balanced against them in point equivalent (assuming Morty also loses all force-multiplying rules such as Arch Contaminator, Re-roll 1s, Contagion, etc..).

Eh? Regardless of what hoops are jumped through, lists are skewed and luck is with you, you should not expect to wipe out a quarter of your opponents list in your first turn. That's a really weird way to view how 40k should be balanced.

And it's not a coin flip. It's not wasted if you don't quite kill him. It means rather than you being in a great position at the end of you first turn, you just have to bare the brunt of Mortarion being alive for a turn and finish him off easily in your turn two.

In reality Death Guard are a slow army that build momentum and power as the game goes on. It means turn one you can afford to put the bulk of your firepower into Mortarion. There aren't generally multiple immediate threats to deal with.

3PBC? have fun ignoring those.

Are people running Mortarion and 3 PBCs in one list? I can't even fit 3PBCs in my Death Guard lists and I don't even run Morty.
That's over half your army.
I'd also say PBCs aren't necessarily an immediate threat. Their strength comes from their staying power adding up kills throughout a give turn game. They're not exactly a devestating alpha strike...

PBC damage isn't really stellar. You can push one with the stratagem, but the other ones don't do much. Especially if they can't get a good target on the cannons.

The DG lists usually have 2 of them or 2 contemptors.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Youd really think that pointing out the PBC is 25 less points less than a lancer. Does the same job while being dramatically more durable/ and has an additional d6 str 8 flat 2 damage shots. You'd have no option but to agree with me. Alas though. Making good arguments doesn't matter on dakka.

Another argument, because you've already argued against your own in another thread. You are comparing a codex that has a large mount of long range weaponry to choose and pick from - to min and max - to an army that basically just has a PBC.

Which brings me to my suspicion: People who are complaining about Death Guard appear to be Space Marine players who have been enjoying their dominance and now that they've sniffed the glue they don't want to share.

I have used PBCs in a competitive scene and they do fine but they are far from being the destroyers of world. They are also the only option we have when it comes to long range heavy weaponry.


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Abaddon303 wrote:
Are people running Mortarion and 3 PBCs in one list? I can't even fit 3PBCs in my Death Guard lists and I don't even run Morty.
That's over half your army.
I'd also say PBCs aren't necessarily an immediate threat. Their strength comes from their staying power adding up kills throughout a give turn game. They're not exactly a devestating alpha strike...

Haven't seen many have a Morty and 3 PBCs. I mean, you'll just end up with few units and can't really control the board. You'll kill some units and enjoy that, but you'll probably not win a game with that setup.

Spoletta wrote:
PBC damage isn't really stellar. You can push one with the stratagem, but the other ones don't do much. Especially if they can't get a good target on the cannons.

The DG lists usually have 2 of them or 2 contemptors.

What board control issues are you having with a mortarion. Essentially every unit in the game has to respect his 24" threat range or it gets obliterated the next turn...this gives you a fair amount of board control - basically - the whole table is yours. You can bog him down with hordes - but you also have hordes of pox.

PBC is absolutely stellar. You are just being silly now. Compare it to a necron doom scythe - which is 200 points. Has a much worse secondary gun and basically 3 entropy cannons. It is wildy considered to be great constient damage but kind of a glass cannon. PBC is anything but a glass cannon and has probably more damage output for less points.

It is so easy to determine what is OP. You compare to similar units. If the better option costs less points. It is OP. Literally every situation that exists like this in the game is wrong and needs to be corrected.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
PBC damage isn't really stellar. You can push one with the stratagem, but the other ones don't do much. Especially if they can't get a good target on the cannons.

The DG lists usually have 2 of them or 2 contemptors.

What board control issues are you having with a mortarion. Essentially every unit in the game has to respect his 24" threat range or it gets obliterated the next turn...this gives you a fair amount of board control - basically - the whole table is yours. You can bog him down with hordes - but you also have hordes of pox.

PBC is absolutely stellar. You are just being silly now. Compare it to a necron doom scythe - which is 200 points. Has a much worse secondary gun and basically 3 entropy cannons. It is wildy considered to be great constient damage but kind of a glass cannon. PBC is anything but a glass cannon and has probably more damage output for less points.

It is so easy to determine what is OP. You compare to similar units. If the better option costs less points. It is OP. Literally every situation that exists like this in the game is wrong and needs to be corrected.

Not necessarily, maybe the more expensive options are just over-costed and the one you consider to be OP is actually in the right ballpark. Having played with them myself PBC damage output is nothing special and compared to old DR their durability is doodoo now. If anything most other vehicles just suck and could stand to lose a few points.

I think the PBC is good but not convinced its especially overpowered.

Is it better than a Gladiator Lancer? Yes, but so is just about everything in the game.

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
PBC damage isn't really stellar. You can push one with the stratagem, but the other ones don't do much. Especially if they can't get a good target on the cannons.

The DG lists usually have 2 of them or 2 contemptors.

What board control issues are you having with a mortarion. Essentially every unit in the game has to respect his 24" threat range or it gets obliterated the next turn...this gives you a fair amount of board control - basically - the whole table is yours. You can bog him down with hordes - but you also have hordes of pox.

PBC is absolutely stellar. You are just being silly now. Compare it to a necron doom scythe - which is 200 points. Has a much worse secondary gun and basically 3 entropy cannons. It is wildy considered to be great constient damage but kind of a glass cannon. PBC is anything but a glass cannon and has probably more damage output for less points.

It is so easy to determine what is OP. You compare to similar units. If the better option costs less points. It is OP. Literally every situation that exists like this in the game is wrong and needs to be corrected.

Not necessarily, maybe the more expensive options are just over-costed and the one you consider to be OP is actually in the right ballpark. Having played with them myself PBC damage output is nothing special and compared to old DR their durability is doodoo now. If anything most other vehicles just suck and could stand to lose a few points.

Oh I'd agree with that much. Most Vehicles are just outright bad atm. But you have to compare vehicles to vehicles. I am winning games pretty convincingly when I player my necrons with doom scythes/ triarch stalkers / DDA. To me the PBC just seems like a much more durable doom scythe in terms of damage and even better than being a flyer it has a powerful weapon that doesn't even need LOS. T6 3+ save -1 to hit vs t8 3+/5+ -1 damage not even close in terms of damage mitigation and -25 points.

I am just not sure how...The space marine gladiator tanks got pointed so clearly over on points.

Also just to clarify. OP to me literally just means top of the charts / BIS / About the best available choice (in the game). Compared to a space marine predator or gladiator. The PBC is extremely OP.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
PBC damage isn't really stellar. You can push one with the stratagem, but the other ones don't do much. Especially if they can't get a good target on the cannons.

The DG lists usually have 2 of them or 2 contemptors.

What board control issues are you having with a mortarion. Essentially every unit in the game has to respect his 24" threat range or it gets obliterated the next turn...this gives you a fair amount of board control - basically - the whole table is yours. You can bog him down with hordes - but you also have hordes of pox.

PBC is absolutely stellar. You are just being silly now. Compare it to a necron doom scythe - which is 200 points. Has a much worse secondary gun and basically 3 entropy cannons. It is wildy considered to be great constient damage but kind of a glass cannon. PBC is anything but a glass cannon and has probably more damage output for less points.

It is so easy to determine what is OP. You compare to similar units. If the better option costs less points. It is OP. Literally every situation that exists like this in the game is wrong and needs to be corrected.

Eh, Mortarion isn't all that killy for his points (emphasis on for his points).

Everyone shouldn't get cought up in my PBC comment--I just mention it because in batreps I see, I usually see the DG players spamming terminators. Trouble is that terminators are slow and their ranged power isn't great. Deep striking is not terribly hard to zone out, and they do eventually die to chip fire, so you have to get them actually onto objectives. And even then, they're not obsec, so you can get your objectives flipped on you.

Really I'm simply saying DG players might be wise to bring more well rounded lists. Stop thinking in terms of "I must bring max of something or nothing at all". Don't have to bring 3 PBC, but one or 2 is great--especially with the strat. Being able to clear a pesky chaff model off an out of LOS objective can be game winning.

I'm also not really a tourney player though and still haven't played much 9th edition outside a few home games due to pandemic so I could be wrong.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
PBC damage isn't really stellar. You can push one with the stratagem, but the other ones don't do much. Especially if they can't get a good target on the cannons.

The DG lists usually have 2 of them or 2 contemptors.

What board control issues are you having with a mortarion. Essentially every unit in the game has to respect his 24" threat range or it gets obliterated the next turn...this gives you a fair amount of board control - basically - the whole table is yours. You can bog him down with hordes - but you also have hordes of pox.

PBC is absolutely stellar. You are just being silly now. Compare it to a necron doom scythe - which is 200 points. Has a much worse secondary gun and basically 3 entropy cannons. It is wildy considered to be great constient damage but kind of a glass cannon. PBC is anything but a glass cannon and has probably more damage output for less points.

It is so easy to determine what is OP. You compare to similar units. If the better option costs less points. It is OP. Literally every situation that exists like this in the game is wrong and needs to be corrected.

Not necessarily, maybe the more expensive options are just over-costed and the one you consider to be OP is actually in the right ballpark. Having played with them myself PBC damage output is nothing special and compared to old DR their durability is doodoo now. If anything most other vehicles just suck and could stand to lose a few points.

Oh I'd agree with that much. Most Vehicles are just outright bad atm. But you have to compare vehicles to vehicles. I am winning games pretty convincingly when I player my necrons with doom scythes/ triarch stalkers / DDA. To me the PBC just seems like a much more durable doom scythe in terms of damage and even better than being a flyer it has a powerful weapon that doesn't even need LOS. T6 3+ save -1 to hit vs t8 3+/5+ -1 damage not even close in terms of damage mitigation and -25 points.

I am just not sure how...The space marine gladiator tanks got pointed so clearly over on points.

Also just to clarify. OP to me literally just means top of the charts / BIS / About the best available choice (in the game). Compared to a space marine predator or gladiator. The PBC is extremely OP.

So maybe instead of arguing that PBCs are OP you should be arguing that other vehicles, including Predators and Gladiators, are underpowered, and need a points drop?

Tyel wrote:
I think the PBC is good but not convinced its especially overpowered.

Is it better than a Gladiator Lancer? Yes, but so is just about everything in the game.

Careful with that kind of talk, or we'll end up with a 9.5 SM codex in a year's time.

I could use a SM codex weekly

The PBC is arguably worse than it was in 8th edition so I don't understand how it's gone from decent to OP?

Its not as durable as it was, the spewer version is no longer viable which used to be the reason to take it.

3+ BS is mitigated somewhat by no access to rerolls to hit or arch contaminator and you also can't buff multiple PBCs with a 4++.

It's a decent tank that can contribute turn one in an army that struggles to do much apart from advance turn one.

Also people talking about Morty 'obliterating any unit' i think must have not actually played against him this edition and are just presuming he's as nasty as he was. He's gotten tougher but less deadly. Overall he kills more because he's more likely to make it through the first couple of turns but his damage output is not what it was.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Youd really think that pointing out the PBC is 25 less points less than a lancer. Does the same job while being dramatically more durable/ and has an additional d6 str 8 flat 2 damage shots. You'd have no option but to agree with me. Alas though. Making good arguments doesn't matter on dakka.

"Your tank is better than then horrible one I have and it should be worse than my horrible tank" is not a good argument. That's envy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Are people running Mortarion and 3 PBCs in one list? I can't even fit 3PBCs in my Death Guard lists and I don't even run Morty.
That's over half your army.
I'd also say PBCs aren't necessarily an immediate threat. Their strength comes from their staying power adding up kills throughout a give turn game. They're not exactly a devestating alpha strike...

Quickly clicking through battlescribe you could have 3 PBC, but then all your troops are going to be pox walkers and you can't have a third unit of terminators. Which means that 3 PBC is all the shooting that list has. Probably not a great idea.

Also comparing the PBC to a Doom Scythe? The Doom Scythe is a 50" move flyer? Of course it's not as durable.

Although actually with it's -1 to hit it takes 4 lascannons to get damage through on both the PBC and the Doom Scythe so durability isn't completely off. The PBC will do better against Melta though being T8 with inv.

The Doom Scythe has 3 shots at S12 on it's Entropy equivalent gun (the strength is admittedly mitigated slightly by the PBC rerolling 1s to wound). It can't split those shots like the PBC can, but then the Doom Scythe can get a target on pretty much anything on the board with it whereas the PBC needs LOS.

Ignoring LOS with the mortar is great (although as mentioned the Doom Scythe can probably target most stuff it wants to) but it's also super swingy with number of shots compared to the Twin Tesla getting probably a consistent 10 hits. In fact, firing either the Twin Tesla or the mortar at a unit of Primaris will result in basically one dead.

I think they are odd units to compare with each other, but from a cost/effectiveness point of view I honestly think these are pretty balanced?

Quasistellar wrote:
Eh, Mortarion isn't all that killy for his points (emphasis on for his points).

Everyone shouldn't get cought up in my PBC comment--I just mention it because in batreps I see, I usually see the DG players spamming terminators. Trouble is that terminators are slow and their ranged power isn't great. Deep striking is not terribly hard to zone out, and they do eventually die to chip fire, so you have to get them actually onto objectives. And even then, they're not obsec, so you can get your objectives flipped on you.

Really I'm simply saying DG players might be wise to bring more well rounded lists. Stop thinking in terms of "I must bring max of something or nothing at all". Don't have to bring 3 PBC, but one or 2 is great--especially with the strat. Being able to clear a pesky chaff model off an out of LOS objective can be game winning.

I'm also not really a tourney player though and still haven't played much 9th edition outside a few home games due to pandemic so I could be wrong.

I don't think your analysis is far off.

Mortarion's power mostly stems from his utility: two contagions he can self-buff to 12", psychic powers and denies and throwing his chapter master buff at a shooting unit is usually what he does before he returns to the warp. Obviously his scythe has become much more reliable at chopping up hard targets, but he also lost blades of putrefaction and his mortal wounds aura, so he will cause less damage to pretty much everything else than he used to. He will totally murder any unit he charges, but no longer spill mortal wounds on an entire army. Exalted greater daemons have very similar offensive output for half the points.

I agree on the PBC - one or two are great, three seem like too much of an investment for a model that can't defend itself against deep strikers or fast units. They die a lot easier than before if someone wants them dead, so unlike before you actually need to hide them can't just use them as moving terrain. In general, there are not a lot of DG units which shoot well after plasma and MBH have been nerfed. If FW hadn't "saved the day" by putting core on contemptors, we might even be seeing helbrutes.

Terminators are really the bread and butter for DG now, you basically walk onto enemy objectives and slaughter what's there, I rarely bother with deep strike unless my opponent has a low model count.

Really I'm simply saying DG players might be wise to bring more well rounded lists. Stop thinking in terms of "I must bring max of something or nothing at all". Don't have to bring 3 PBC, but one or 2 is great--especially with the strat. Being able to clear a pesky chaff model off an out of LOS objective can be game winning.

Yep. Many players will try to sneak MSU units onto an objective and the PBC is quite well suited to thin the herd or take them out altogether.

3 PBC is overkill. 2 I feel is a current sweetspot, but mostly because DG don't have that many options in regards to long range fire.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Really I'm simply saying DG players might be wise to bring more well rounded lists. Stop thinking in terms of "I must bring max of something or nothing at all". Don't have to bring 3 PBC, but one or 2 is great--especially with the strat. Being able to clear a pesky chaff model off an out of LOS objective can be game winning.

Yep. Many players will try to sneak MSU units onto an objective and the PBC is quite well suited to thin the herd or take them out altogether.

3 PBC is overkill. 2 I feel is a current sweetspot, but mostly because DG don't have that many options in regards to long range fire.

Yea people might complain about PBC being cheaper than a Lancer, but in context of the army it probably isn't terribly undercosted.

PBCs are fine. They made them less durable but upped their firepower to compensate. Instead of complaining about PBCs people who play other factions should be asking for buffs for their own tanks.

The PBC isn't OP because it's better than a Doom Scythe. The Doom Scythe just fething sucks all on its own.