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True. DT being all cobsuming and granting +1D seems like a mistake.


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Should probably be +1 to wound only and not all consuming. Then itd ve a bit more in line with other traits. The single mw you might get is not really a meaningful offset even if they "fixed" that.


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Damn shame because outside of DT liquifiers are finally a reasonable, good gun upgrade.

I tend to think if you removed +1 damage DT would fall out of the running as anything competitive since halving the damage of the build in exchange for...mostly nothing...is probably a bit much. It's also the only meaningful mono-covens build. It is probably too strong, but it is pretty much the only use for cronos and grots at the moment. Talos also probably fall in that boat (they'd probably have some play with double liquifers)

Raising liquifer guns to 15 points or wracks to 9-10 would be a lot more nuanced approach. If DT didn't add to damage, it would just not be used and nor would mono-covens; they'd just be a little add on for some utility at most. Their profound drop in durability lost them the role; comparing similarly costed DA termies/deathshroud (a bit more)/Bladeguard (a bit less) and Grots is laughable in terms of the meat-body on objective.

drakerocket wrote:
I tend to think if you removed +1 damage DT would fall out of the running as anything competitive since halving the damage of the build in exchange for...mostly nothing...is probably a bit much. It's also the only meaningful mono-covens build. It is probably too strong, but it is pretty much the only use for cronos and grots at the moment. Talos also probably fall in that boat (they'd probably have some play with double liquifers)

Raising liquifer guns to 15 points or wracks to 9-10 would be a lot more nuanced approach. If DT didn't add to damage, it would just not be used and nor would mono-covens; they'd just be a little add on for some utility at most. Their profound drop in durability lost them the role; comparing similarly costed DA termies/deathshroud (a bit more)/Bladeguard (a bit less) and Grots is laughable in terms of the meat-body on objective.

An easier solution might just be to change the DT trait thus:

If a model is firing a weapon that automatically hits while using this ability, have the model roll a separate 1D6. On an unmodified result of a 1, this model suffers one mortal wound after resolving all of its shooting attacks. This roll has no effect on the number of hits or wounds.

 the_scotsman wrote:
True. DT being all cobsuming and granting +1D seems like a mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should probably be +1 to wound only and not all consuming. Then itd ve a bit more in line with other traits. The single mw you might get is not really a meaningful offset even if they "fixed" that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn shame because outside of DT liquifiers are finally a reasonable, good gun upgrade.

You say this but liquifiers are the only thing that seem OP and it was a design mistake. Think instead to to 1d3 damage that DT can cause on monsters or vehicles. Suddenly venoms and even talos might question whether it's really worthwhile to use DT. Meanwhile things like raiders are fine with it. It's really just questionable with liquifiers and honestly it's something that could be fixed if they make you roll for each shot during number of shots. For instance you get 4 shots and now have to make 4 rolls not getting a one and if you do a wracks bites it or something similar.

The one good thing to all of this is 5+++ FNP makes DT more survivable unless they reworked that part of DT. I'm a bit lazy and my book isn't in front of me.

I've said it in the 2-minutes hate drukhari thread and I'll say it again here: A DT liquifier is a more effective anti-tank weapon than an unbuffed Dark Lance.

Also, you could change the rule to 'if you fire a weapon that automatically hits, you ALWAYS suffer the mortal wound(s) to the unit afterwards" and it wouldn't matter. a single mortal wound that you get a 5++ against that won't even remove a single liquifier from the squad if it goes through is a microscopic price to pay for making a liqufier into (effectively) a S7 Ap-2 d2 gun.

If you made the trait only +1 to wound and removed the All-Consuming portion of the trait, it would still be the most powerful damage-increasing trait available, one of only 2 available that affects ranged weaponry, and you would make it stackable with Masters of Mutagens if you want powerful Venoms/Taloi or Splinterblades if you want offensively powerful Wracks/Grotesques.

I sincerely doubt pure covens would not be viable without this crutch rule as it currently stands. Grotesques and Incubi are still extremely good anti-elite units and Taloi with Heat Lances and Raiders are highly effective anti-tank units.


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Audustum wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I tend to think if you removed +1 damage DT would fall out of the running as anything competitive since halving the damage of the build in exchange for...mostly nothing...is probably a bit much. It's also the only meaningful mono-covens build. It is probably too strong, but it is pretty much the only use for cronos and grots at the moment. Talos also probably fall in that boat (they'd probably have some play with double liquifers)

Raising liquifer guns to 15 points or wracks to 9-10 would be a lot more nuanced approach. If DT didn't add to damage, it would just not be used and nor would mono-covens; they'd just be a little add on for some utility at most. Their profound drop in durability lost them the role; comparing similarly costed DA termies/deathshroud (a bit more)/Bladeguard (a bit less) and Grots is laughable in terms of the meat-body on objective.

An easier solution might just be to change the DT trait thus:

If a model is firing a weapon that automatically hits while using this ability, have the model roll a separate 1D6. On an unmodified result of a 1, this model suffers one mortal wound after resolving all of its shooting attacks. This roll has no effect on the number of hits or wounds.

This is the most laughably limp slap on the wrist I can possibly imagine lol. The problem here is not that you can avoid taking a MW on your mounted wracks. Most opponents will be plenty tabled before you ever get round to removing liquifiers from the mortal wounds even if you guarantee the MW upon using an autohitting weapon.

 the_scotsman wrote:
I've said it in the 2-minutes hate drukhari thread and I'll say it again here: A DT liquifier is a more effective anti-tank weapon than an unbuffed Dark Lance.

Also, you could change the rule to 'if you fire a weapon that automatically hits, you ALWAYS suffer the mortal wound(s) to the unit afterwards" and it wouldn't matter. a single mortal wound that you get a 5++ against that won't even remove a single liquifier from the squad if it goes through is a microscopic price to pay for making a liqufier into (effectively) a S7 Ap-2 d2 gun.

If you made the trait only +1 to wound and removed the All-Consuming portion of the trait, it would still be the most powerful damage-increasing trait available, one of only 2 available that affects ranged weaponry, and you would make it stackable with Masters of Mutagens if you want powerful Venoms/Taloi or Splinterblades if you want offensively powerful Wracks/Grotesques.

I sincerely doubt pure covens would not be viable without this crutch rule as it currently stands. Grotesques and Incubi are still extremely good anti-elite units and Taloi with Heat Lances and Raiders are highly effective anti-tank units.


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Audustum wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I tend to think if you removed +1 damage DT would fall out of the running as anything competitive since halving the damage of the build in exchange for...mostly nothing...is probably a bit much. It's also the only meaningful mono-covens build. It is probably too strong, but it is pretty much the only use for cronos and grots at the moment. Talos also probably fall in that boat (they'd probably have some play with double liquifers)

Raising liquifer guns to 15 points or wracks to 9-10 would be a lot more nuanced approach. If DT didn't add to damage, it would just not be used and nor would mono-covens; they'd just be a little add on for some utility at most. Their profound drop in durability lost them the role; comparing similarly costed DA termies/deathshroud (a bit more)/Bladeguard (a bit less) and Grots is laughable in terms of the meat-body on objective.

An easier solution might just be to change the DT trait thus:

If a model is firing a weapon that automatically hits while using this ability, have the model roll a separate 1D6. On an unmodified result of a 1, this model suffers one mortal wound after resolving all of its shooting attacks. This roll has no effect on the number of hits or wounds.

This is the most laughably limp slap on the wrist I can possibly imagine lol. The problem here is not that you can avoid taking a MW on your mounted wracks. Most opponents will be plenty tabled before you ever get round to removing liquifiers from the mortal wounds even if you guarantee the MW upon using an autohitting weapon.

I guess you and I just disagree that liquifiers are that much of an issue. They're strong but I wouldn't call them broken by any means.

Since you mentioned anti-tank, the Liquifier averages 2.35 wounds with a variance of 2.10 against a 3+ T7 vehicle. A BS3 (Raider) platform for a Dark Lance with no re-rolls averages 1.85 with a variance of 2.41. With the Black Heart or Obsidian re-roll, the Dark Lance will be slightly better. On a Trueborn squad the Dark Lance is also better (2.31 variance of 2.49). So on Trueborn and Black Heart/Obsidian they're about equal. A Trueborn squad in a Black Heart/Obsidian detachment will likely out perform the Liquifier.

This is not accounting for range (12" vs. 36"). It also does not account for using the Dark Technomancer trait to boost a Dark Laser (making it outperform the boosted Liquifier I believe). The gist is that yeah, a Liquifier, benefitting from a faction trait outperforms a Dark Lance that is not in anti-tank. When you give them both faction traits though, they're about equal (and I didn't even look at Scourge's by an Archon in a Realspace Raid with Writ of the Living Muse, which might outperform everyone).

But the problem is that a anti horde and anti elite weapon is also better agaisnt vehicles than a specifically anti vehicle weapon. And in the best case for the dark lance they are just equal. And Dark Lances are not bad weapons after the buffs.

Would anybody say SM flamers outperforming multimeltas and lasscannons at everything because they are Salamanders is fine? I doubt it.

Even with the difference in range thats absurd specially when dark eldar have the fastest transports in the game and they can shoot from them.

 Galas wrote:
But the problem is that a anti horde and anti elite weapon is also better agaisnt vehicles than a specifically anti vehicle weapon. And in the best case for the dark lance they are just equal. And Dark Lances are not bad weapons after the buffs.

Would anybody say SM flamers outperforming multimeltas and lasscannons at everything because they are Salamanders is fine? I doubt it.

Even with the difference in range thats absurd specially when dark eldar have the fastest transports in the game and they can shoot from them.

^this.

A jump from an average of .8 damage to an average of 2.3 just based on a flat, always-on subfaction trait is absolutely buck wild particularly given that the weapons that it's competing against that barely edge it out, like a dark lance fired by a Trueborn or a dark lance in Obrose are generally

1) more limited
2) more expensive per shot
3) don't do NEARLY as much when pointed at any other target.

Dark Tech has been defining what covens do in annoying ways since PA, and to be honest, I'd just like to get rid of it. But if I can't have that, I'd like to at least make it just another offensive trait. Like, are people seriously of the opinion that something like, say, Splinterblades+Masters of Mutagens is in the same league as DT?

I'd much rather DT was gutted than say Liquifiers were - or Wracks/Grotesques/literally everything because it *could* benefit from DT trait.

Tend to agree the +1 to wound no damage increase and you can take another trait is a reasonable tweak. If you want to kill it off (it is GW) you make the tweak and leave it as allconsuming.

On *that thread* - I used to scoff at Marine players saying the same - but I do think we need a bit more actual evidence before going nuts on DE in general. The situation is confused at the moment - because I'm sure Razorflail/Competitive edge will be nerfed/cut. Some people are using 10 point reavers which is just stupid. And DT may be breaking friendly games, but competitively people seem to be focusing on only bringing a few units of wracks rather than spamming 30+ liquifiers of them.

People do need some time to learn how to deal with the DE codex. I also think people forget how when IH came out, the next weekend pretty much every tournament was
1st place: IH
2nd place: IH
3rd place: IH

We don't seem to be seeing that - even if DE are doing well.

Or you guys could do what I said earlier. Roll for shots on a 1d6 and take the shots and roll a d6 for each shot and on a one a wrack takes a mortal wound. For instance 4 shots equals 4 1d6 rolls. Let's say you roll a 1, 3, 3 and a 6 in this scenario so then you take 1 mortal wound but with wracks you get a 5+ fnp and this time you roll a 4 so you lose one wrack.

If we change what DT does I'd rather it keep damage and take away +1 to wound. It'd make it different enough to the wych cults test of skill ability.

Another option to "fix" DT - if necessary - might be making it so Wracks can't take 2 Liquifiers in a unit of 5. Could I guess induce massive outcry - but you can't do it from the contents of the box.

This would perhaps be bad because it impacts other obsessions - but I'm not sure its an obvious loadout without the DT boost.

I dunno we already have been losing options. Making us lose more options is pretty lame.

So, out of curiosity I did some comparisons of the Weapons of Torture (i.e. the Wrack's "melee" special weapons). This is all without including Blade Artists (complicated math, fairly even changes) or considering any upgrades from Covens. It also doesn't inherently include Damage. Here's what I got:

Wrack Blades: 0.83 (T3, 5+), 0.67 (T3, 4+), 0.50 (T4, 3+), 0.50 (T5, 3+), 0.83 (T5, 5+), 0.33 (T4, 2+), 1.00 (T4, 6+)
Mindphase Gauntlet: 0.83 (T3, 5+) 0.67, (T3, 4+), 0.33 (T4, 3+), 0.33 (T5, 3+), 0.55 (T5, 5+), 0.22 (T4, 2+), 0.66 (T4, 6+)
Flesh Gauntlet: 1.21 (T3, 5+), 1.00 (T3, 4+), 0.67 (T4, 3+), 0.55 (T5, 3+), 0.77 (T5, 5+), 0.50 (T4, 2+), 1.17 (T4, 6+)
Electrocorrosive Whip: 2.00 (T3, 5+), 1.67 (T3, 4+), 1.33 (T4, 3+), 1.33 (T5, 3+), 2.00 (T5, 5+), 1.00 (T4, 2+), 2.33 (T4, 6+)
Venom Blade: 1.39 (T3, 5+), 1.11 (T3, 4+), 0.83 (T4, 3+), 0.83 (T5, 3+), 1.39 (T5, 5+), 0.56 (T4, 2+), 1.67 (T4, 6+)
Agoniser: 1.17 (T3, 5+), 1.00 (T3, 4+), 0.83 (T4, 3+), 0.83 (T5, 3+), 1.17 (T5, 5+), 0.67 (T4, 2+), 1.33 (T4, 6+)
Scissorhand: 1.67 (T3, 5+), 1.39 (T3, 4+), 1.11 (T4, 3+), 1.11 (T5, 3+), 1.67 (T5, 5+), 0.83 (T4, 2+), 1.94 (T4, 6+)

To translate that more readably...

Electrocorrosive Whip is broken, relatively speaking. It's 5 points, and better than literally every other weapon in literally every other situation. No idea what the logic was. It can't be a typo, because even at 10 points it's still just Scissorhands with +1A.

Scissorhands are garbage. I don't get why they even exist. They're the exact same stats as an Electrocorrosive Whip, but with -1A... for an extra 5 points. Huh?

Mindphase Gauntlet isn't as bad as I thought, and will scale quite well with Coven/Stratagem combat buffs, but still feels pretty dubious even in a world of 2-wound Marines. I'd give it more of a chance if the Whip didn't exist.

Flesh Gauntlet is consistently a little better than Wrack Blades against everything except high Toughness, low Save targets. It's most noticeably better against T3 targets with an okay save.

Venom Blade is better than Flesh Gauntlet against almost everything, but would lose out against a T3 model with a 5+ or better invulnerable save. It's better than the Agonizer against literally everything but Terminators, and even there the advantage is slight.[/list]

So to rank them...

1) Electrocorrosive Whip: Utterly broken, always the best.

2) Venom Blade: Highest consistent damage after the Electrocorrosive Whip. Only really loses out to Flesh Gauntlet against T3 invulnerable saves.

3) Flesh Gauntlet/Mindphase Gauntlet: Useful if you have combat buffs to burn, but otherwise mostly worse than the Venom Blade except against specialty targets.

4) Agoniser: Worse than Venom Blade against everything but Terminators, and even there it's not much.

5) Scissorhand: It's not bad in a vacuum. It's just worse and more expensive than the Electrocorrosive Whip in literally every situation.

I suspect the whip was meant to be 10 points and GW just missed it.

Really its a bit academic - as I don't think people are bothering with weapons at all, and if they were probably only the whip is worth bothering with - and you wouldn't bother at 10 points.

For example the venom blade is a 66% damage output - for a 62.5% increase in cost. Which is just generally a bad trade as you are getting no "resilience" stats for the points.

Tyel wrote:
I suspect the whip was meant to be 10 points and GW just missed it.

Yeah, but even then it just goes from being cheaper than Scissorhands for directly better stats to... the same cost as Scissorhands for directly better stats. It's just odd. The 9e codex clearly wanted to give Wrack weapons an overall facelift, and succeeded, but the Wrack special melee weapons are still just not quite there.

Tyel wrote:
Really its a bit academic - as I don't think people are bothering with weapons at all, and if they were probably only the whip is worth bothering with - and you wouldn't bother at 10 points.

For example the venom blade is a 66% damage output - for a 62.5% increase in cost. Which is just generally a bad trade as you are getting no "resilience" stats for the points.

Yeah, it's a bit of a shame. A box of 5 Wracks comes with 6 alternate weapons and 4 guns, but can only use 2 of those guns and 1 of those alternate weapons, tops.

I feel like Wrack special melee weapons should either be a bit better and available to multiple models so they scale up more effectively (since the box comes with the bits anyway...) or stay one-per-unit, but be reworked to have more impressive/unique mechanical effects that help the whole unit, rather than being stat-tweaks. The Mindphase Gauntlet used to be Concussive, for example; it could do something like give your Acothyst a free attack at the start of each Fight phase, and if it hits/wounds, the target unit has to fight last in that phase. Something like that.

I don't think they are worth 10pts at all, i actually would 100% stop taking them at 10pts now how bad Wracks are at surviving pre turn 4, a 5+++ only goes so far for a 10pt weapon on a "meh" melee unit. They are objective sitters now, not tarpit combat units anymore. Also I wouldn't say its broken at all, compare it to any of the Wych weapons for same points.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Or you guys could do what I said earlier. Roll for shots on a 1d6 and take the shots and roll a d6 for each shot and on a one a wrack takes a mortal wound. For instance 4 shots equals 4 1d6 rolls. Let's say you roll a 1, 3, 3 and a 6 in this scenario so then you take 1 mortal wound but with wracks you get a 5+ fnp and this time you roll a 4 so you lose one wrack.

If we change what DT does I'd rather it keep damage and take away +1 to wound. It'd make it different enough to the wych cults test of skill ability.

Are people missing that DT currently CAPS the mortal wounds at 1 instance of either 1 or d3? the 'downside' to it is a hilariously light slap on the wrist for basically any unit. I can fire 6d6 stinger pod shots out of my unit of 6 talos and even if i roll 6 1's i take 1d3 MWs and then I get a FNP against those mw's.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Or you guys could do what I said earlier. Roll for shots on a 1d6 and take the shots and roll a d6 for each shot and on a one a wrack takes a mortal wound. For instance 4 shots equals 4 1d6 rolls. Let's say you roll a 1, 3, 3 and a 6 in this scenario so then you take 1 mortal wound but with wracks you get a 5+ fnp and this time you roll a 4 so you lose one wrack.

If we change what DT does I'd rather it keep damage and take away +1 to wound. It'd make it different enough to the wych cults test of skill ability.

Are people missing that DT currently CAPS the mortal wounds at 1 instance of either 1 or d3? the 'downside' to it is a hilariously light slap on the wrist for basically any unit. I can fire 6d6 stinger pod shots out of my unit of 6 talos and even if i roll 6 1's i take 1d3 MWs and then I get a FNP against those mw's.

No it does not, its for AN ENHANCED WEAPON not A MODEL. If a model has 2 guns and rolls a 1 to hit on each gun then they take 2 instances of MW's.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Or you guys could do what I said earlier. Roll for shots on a 1d6 and take the shots and roll a d6 for each shot and on a one a wrack takes a mortal wound. For instance 4 shots equals 4 1d6 rolls. Let's say you roll a 1, 3, 3 and a 6 in this scenario so then you take 1 mortal wound but with wracks you get a 5+ fnp and this time you roll a 4 so you lose one wrack.

If we change what DT does I'd rather it keep damage and take away +1 to wound. It'd make it different enough to the wych cults test of skill ability.

Are people missing that DT currently CAPS the mortal wounds at 1 instance of either 1 or d3? the 'downside' to it is a hilariously light slap on the wrist for basically any unit. I can fire 6d6 stinger pod shots out of my unit of 6 talos and even if i roll 6 1's i take 1d3 MWs and then I get a FNP against those mw's.

No it does not, its for AN ENHANCED WEAPON not A MODEL. If a model has 2 guns and rolls a 1 to hit on each gun then they take 2 instances of MW's.

Which made it not so fun on my Dark Lance, Dark Technomancer Ravagers. Potential 3D3 MW :(

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Or you guys could do what I said earlier. Roll for shots on a 1d6 and take the shots and roll a d6 for each shot and on a one a wrack takes a mortal wound. For instance 4 shots equals 4 1d6 rolls. Let's say you roll a 1, 3, 3 and a 6 in this scenario so then you take 1 mortal wound but with wracks you get a 5+ fnp and this time you roll a 4 so you lose one wrack.

If we change what DT does I'd rather it keep damage and take away +1 to wound. It'd make it different enough to the wych cults test of skill ability.

Are people missing that DT currently CAPS the mortal wounds at 1 instance of either 1 or d3? the 'downside' to it is a hilariously light slap on the wrist for basically any unit. I can fire 6d6 stinger pod shots out of my unit of 6 talos and even if i roll 6 1's i take 1d3 MWs and then I get a FNP against those mw's.

No it does not, its for AN ENHANCED WEAPON not A MODEL. If a model has 2 guns and rolls a 1 to hit on each gun then they take 2 instances of MW's.

Ah - OK, you are correct reading it over a second time. Per weapon in the unit.

Luckily in the game I've used that, I did not end up cheating - all six of my heat lances fired and didnt roll a single 1, but then all my Raiders hit themselves for 3MWs just off the single dark lance shot, lol.

If they're really committed to DT being what it is, they could also just make it so that in addition to being unable to reroll the hit roll for weapons that roll to hit, it also causes auto-hitting weapons to not auto-hit any more, so you have to roll to hit as normal.

That would lower the output by 1/3 on average plus allow the mortal wounds on self to trigger, which might be enough to make it not an issue.

That's an interesting idea.

I have a question in regards to dark technomancers. If dark lances are worse how do the troops in the transport factor in? For instance warriors and true born with blasters and dark lance vs wracks with double liquified spam. Not doubting the firepower of liquifiers but you have to get really close to do a drive-by with liquifiers and in some cases there might be plenty of bubble wrap units along the way. Warriors with blasters, poison and a dark lance on the other hand can max fire at 24” provided you go for obsidian rose. I get liquifiers can kill the bubble wrap but I feel like it’s possible for the bubble wrap to eat up our firepower instead of more important targets like leman Russ or other tanks or monster gun platforms. Also liquifiers getting that close means you’re likely to get your raiders tied up in melee or shot with lots of return fire.

Anyway I’ve had to deal with lots of return fire before and I’d rather not be in range of every enemy’s gun, melee weapon or line of sight. Maybe we hit hard enough that it’s not such a big deal now though.

Considering our issues with speedy tau riptides however I think liquifier drive-by’s will be hard and that is one of our tougher opponents right now.

12" range on a platform that can auto-advance 22" (not to mention the extra few inches you can sometimes get with appropriate pointy schnoz alignment) is not particularly difficult to land a DT haymaker with, especially if you've got first turn. With fly in the picture, it's extremely hard to screen that out.

Sterling191 wrote:
12" range on a platform that can auto-advance 22" (not to mention the extra few inches you can sometimes get with appropriate pointy schnoz alignment) is not particularly difficult to land a DT haymaker with, especially if you've got first turn. With fly in the picture, it's extremely hard to screen that out.

With just one boat though. If you have 3 or more that becomes much harder for big gains. I'd rather it for some important unit in a raider like incubi or grotesques or something. I'm not saying it couldn't have a decent impact but it's just one boat. Maybe in a small game it'd be scarier but not in a 2k points or larger game.

yukishiro1 wrote:
If they're really committed to DT being what it is, they could also just make it so that in addition to being unable to reroll the hit roll for weapons that roll to hit, it also causes auto-hitting weapons to not auto-hit any more, so you have to roll to hit as normal.

That would lower the output by 1/3 on average plus allow the mortal wounds on self to trigger, which might be enough to make it not an issue.

The defeats the entire purpose of the weapon, just make it on a wound roll of 1 again....


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 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
12" range on a platform that can auto-advance 22" (not to mention the extra few inches you can sometimes get with appropriate pointy schnoz alignment) is not particularly difficult to land a DT haymaker with, especially if you've got first turn. With fly in the picture, it's extremely hard to screen that out.

With just one boat though. If you have 3 or more that becomes much harder for big gains. I'd rather it for some important unit in a raider like incubi or grotesques or something. I'm not saying it couldn't have a decent impact but it's just one boat. Maybe in a small game it'd be scarier but not in a 2k points or larger game.

It depends if you go first or second, going second means they are closer, and you dont "need" them in range turn one.


My Lists has only taken 1 Patrol of them, 1 Haemonculus with Relic, 3 Wracks x5 with 2 LG's in 3 Raiders with DC or DL's (going back and forth on what i like better).
The rest of my list is 2x10 wyches, 2 Succubi, Reavers, Hellions, 3x5 Incubi, 5 more Raiders, etc..

I use the 3 DT wracks as more of supporting fire unit and not as the "main damage" its great for me b.c EVERYONE HATES THEM so they go after them almost right away, i can use them to out position my opponent, and if they do not go after them then I have a hella fun turn 2 and 3 with them killing units.

When you take 6-9 of them for raw damage you really need a to play it with a different mind set, they are your damage and target priority is way more important than having a single patrol of them for back up damage.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
If they're really committed to DT being what it is, they could also just make it so that in addition to being unable to reroll the hit roll for weapons that roll to hit, it also causes auto-hitting weapons to not auto-hit any more, so you have to roll to hit as normal.

That would lower the output by 1/3 on average plus allow the mortal wounds on self to trigger, which might be enough to make it not an issue.

The defeats the entire purpose of the weapon, just make it on a wound roll of 1 again....

No, it doesn't. But what it does show is how stupid DT is: I suggest that maybe it should only improve super-flamers by ~50%, not by 150%, and somebody's like "then what's the point?"

DT is meh on anything except flamers, but on flamers, it's completely insane. That's the mark of really bad design.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
If they're really committed to DT being what it is, they could also just make it so that in addition to being unable to reroll the hit roll for weapons that roll to hit, it also causes auto-hitting weapons to not auto-hit any more, so you have to roll to hit as normal.

That would lower the output by 1/3 on average plus allow the mortal wounds on self to trigger, which might be enough to make it not an issue.

The defeats the entire purpose of the weapon, just make it on a wound roll of 1 again....

No, it doesn't. But what it does show is how stupid DT is: I suggest that maybe it should only improve super-flamers by ~50%, not by 150%, and somebody's like "then what's the point?"

DT is meh on anything except flamers, but on flamers, it's completely insane. That's the mark of really bad design.

The point of flamers is to auto hit, so yes it would. And not DT is not just meh on other weapons its insanely good on DC still.

Tyel wrote:
Another option to "fix" DT - if necessary - might be making it so Wracks can't take 2 Liquifiers in a unit of 5. Could I guess induce massive outcry - but you can't do it from the contents of the box.

This would perhaps be bad because it impacts other obsessions - but I'm not sure its an obvious loadout without the DT boost.

That just punishes folks that aren't playing DT though. Which is the very valid concern here. Nerfs should not be aimed at wracks or the liquifier itself. Honestly they should remove the silly gets hot rule entirely IMO. Just make DT a flat +1 to wound. It's the +1 damage that is insanely over the top. +1 to wound is strong for sure but remember it's the only trait they would get on units that are more heavily geared for assault.

 Red Corsair wrote:

That just punishes folks that aren't playing DT though. Which is the very valid concern here. Nerfs should not be aimed at wracks or the liquifier itself. Honestly they should remove the silly gets hot rule entirely IMO. Just make DT a flat +1 to wound. It's the +1 damage that is insanely over the top. +1 to wound is strong for sure but remember it's the only trait they would get on units that are more heavily geared for assault.

This. DT is the root cause, therefore the solution needs to address DT. Playing downstream whack-a-mole isn't a viable, or equitable, approach to take.