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Made in us
Gun Mage





Yeah, it's kind of a goofy step backwards. Just let me pay you $20 for an overpriced ebook, GW! It's not hard! This stuff winds up being pirated anyways, so you might as well make the official option easy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 19:31:26


 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Seriously that is why Itunes succeeded, it made it easier to pay for it legally than to pirate it. GW is like no, we make it harder to buy legally and punish you for not paying!
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





But did you ever buy any of GW's digital editions? They really were terrible. The one I bought I ended up converting to a Word file and spending a couple of hours reformatting it because it was so utterly terrible that it'd slow games down in the form they provided.
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Just let me pay you $20 for an overpriced ebook, GW! It's not hard! This stuff winds up being pirated anyways, so you might as well make the official option easy.

Well, either they're being pirated that much it's not worth it for GW to release them anymore, or they're doubling down on their app...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But did you ever buy any of GW's digital editions?

Yes and I've never had any issues with them. Were you using one of their recommended readers?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 18:14:49


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





beast_gts wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But did you ever buy any of GW's digital editions?

Yes and I've never had any issues with them. Were you using one of their recommended readers?
Yeah, also tried several other readers, they all had pros and cons.

The main problem was how GW setup the pages, it would be perfectly fine for a novel but for a book of rules it was annoying. Where in the physical book a particular set of rules (for a unit for example) would be contained on one page, in the digital version it'd be broken up across multiple pages meaning you couldn't just see all the rules for a unit at a glance. You might have had a single unit's rules across 2 or 3 pages, meaning a whole heap of flicking back and forth, was worse than the physical book equivalent. There were links but they didn't help much with the annoyance of it all.

It's like they formatted it for a tiny mini reader or maybe even a large phone and it didn't work well on a regular sized tablet.

Maybe GW improved them, the codex I got was a few years ago now. It was slightly cheaper than a physical book but a massive downgrade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 06:08:18


 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

On topic, about the app:
Since getting the 9th Ed Codexes on there requires a code found only in the printed books, and it's the official digital version of those rules, would the app count as a valid rule source?

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 Blndmage wrote:
On topic, about the app:
Since getting the 9th Ed Codexes on there requires a code found only in the printed books, and it's the official digital version of those rules, would the app count as a valid rule source?

Check with the TO - it's an official source, but it's not a full codex or the easiest thing to navigate...
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Good luck getting the app to work when your opponent demands to see the rule you are citing and you're on the clock.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Good luck getting the app to work when your opponent demands to see the rule you are citing and you're on the clock.

The same can be said for literally any digital mechanism, what's your point?
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 Kanluwen wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Good luck getting the app to work when your opponent demands to see the rule you are citing and you're on the clock.

The same can be said for literally any digital mechanism, what's your point?


I can't tell if you are serious or not. The entire thread is about the reasons why or why not people should be allowed to take paper copies of rules to events/tournaments, because it erodes trust in the legitimacy of the rules. If you are having a match where you are on a clock system, and you have an extremely limited window to make your turn, I will call you on every rule you play if you are using the APP, because I know that it will take you entire minutes to bring up the rule as proof on the app. Whereas if you have a book, or even a digital codex, you can flip right to the appropriate page. The App is notoriously bad at quick rule skimming. This has happened in several events, and it's cost people games, because rule disputes are handled in the moment, unless you can get a TO to come and micro manage your table, you are stuck trying to show proof of the rule on your time. The app is crash happy, it's hard to navigate, and it doesn't have a search function. Try right now to time yourself: it would be faster to find the shooting distance of my Telemon's guns on google, than by searching the app.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Whatever. It's quite obvious you'd be a real treat to ignore playing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/13 13:43:36


 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This has happened in several events, and it's cost people games
Have you got a source / link for this?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
you are stuck trying to show proof of the rule on your time.
If your opponent wants to check something surly either give them your tablet or pause the clock?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The app is crash happy, it's hard to navigate, and it doesn't have a search function.
It does have a search function - what it doesn't have is a good way to browse a codex.
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Good luck getting the app to work when your opponent demands to see the rule you are citing and you're on the clock.

The same can be said for literally any digital mechanism, what's your point?


I can't tell if you are serious or not. The entire thread is about the reasons why or why not people should be allowed to take paper copies of rules to events/tournaments, because it erodes trust in the legitimacy of the rules. If you are having a match where you are on a clock system, and you have an extremely limited window to make your turn, I will call you on every rule you play if you are using the APP, because I know that it will take you entire minutes to bring up the rule as proof on the app. Whereas if you have a book, or even a digital codex, you can flip right to the appropriate page. The App is notoriously bad at quick rule skimming. This has happened in several events, and it's cost people games, because rule disputes are handled in the moment, unless you can get a TO to come and micro manage your table, you are stuck trying to show proof of the rule on your time. The app is crash happy, it's hard to navigate, and it doesn't have a search function. Try right now to time yourself: it would be faster to find the shooting distance of my Telemon's guns on google, than by searching the app.


I take it you don't play in events with sportsmanship/opponent scores.. Jesus wept

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Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter





 Pacific wrote:
I take it you don't play in events with sportsmanship/opponent scores.. Jesus wept

I'd be inclined to issue the match loss regardless if I saw a player blatantly attempting to run the opponent's clock out like that, and would be a hair's breadth from escalating that to a dismissal. The clock exists to protect you from slow play. It does not exist to be weaponized through rule questions made in bad faith. Just play the bloody game.
   
Made in in
Fresh-Faced New User




I've had hundreds of dollars of rulebooks and codexes lifted off of me at events. I'd rather carry a cheap tablet that is portable enough to throw in a side sack than spend all that money again.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





man official GW warhammer tournaments really seem terrible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/05 17:04:13


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
, and it doesn't have a search function.


Actually it does have search function. I just used one to get straight to telemon datasheet.

Though overall point still fair.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

As a TO it's not my job to push GW corporate messaging and more to have players enjoy their games. I've always allowed any printed materials players have long as its the correct rules. The chance of someone creating fake rules is so laughably small.

The whole idea that a TO has to worry about copyright issues is absurd, come on lets not be GW's unpaid employees and encourage playing of the game.

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Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




There are tons of legal precedent in IP law that allow for copying of such material as software, music CD’s, and other media for personal use, provided that you purchased the thing you are copying, as fair use. Especially if the purpose is to protect the original. Copying your friend’s codex is a blatant violation of this. Now games workshop can sanction tournament organizations should they not agree with TO policy on copies of codices being used in lieu of actual copies, but there is no basis for legal liability whatsoever unless the TO is actively encouraging violation of actual IP law.

Now, maybe a TO fears losing endorsement or support from GW. That is a very logical reason to shun the usage of copies of codices. And high profile tournaments may be receiving a LOT of support and have a LOT to lose. Legal litigation, however, would be a losing battle on behalf of GW because this practice of copying your potentially hundred dollar collector’s edition codex to prevent theft or undue wear and tear and even convenience because of how heavy they are and how many potential books you may need to carry is way too strong a case for a fair use argument.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/16 18:28:07


Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

As a player, I don’t care. In Horus Heresy events, your units might be listed in 5 different thick-ass forge world books. You’d need a servitor to carry the fething things.

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Made in us
Knight of the Inner Circle






I think it should reflect the type of tournament, if it was a dozen of local guys with minimum prize support, not a big deal and most likely people are working on lists and building units.
Because not all players work in gold mines and can afford everything in one big chunk.

But if it's a large event like at Adepticon with a ton of preparation like super fancy painted miniatures, etc.
I would think you would want to show up and try to present yourself as a respectable player with actual books, not a sloppy stack of photo copies.

 
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


IANAL, but my recollection from when I studied the minutiae of this is it's not legal. The copy for your own personal use is basically a back-up of the item that you own. If you no longer own the item you're not legally entitled to own the back-up.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Slipspace wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


IANAL, but my recollection from when I studied the minutiae of this is it's not legal. The copy for your own personal use is basically a back-up of the item that you own. If you no longer own the item you're not legally entitled to own the back-up.


I don't know. For starters no one would demand proof of your original item if you show up with a copy, and even if you actually sold the original book you can always claim that you still have it somewhere, you just don't remember where it is. Legally no one could do something against you in cases like this one, even if laws as written (and I'm not sure of that either) it is illegal to do it.

 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




 Blackie wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


IANAL, but my recollection from when I studied the minutiae of this is it's not legal. The copy for your own personal use is basically a back-up of the item that you own. If you no longer own the item you're not legally entitled to own the back-up.


I don't know. For starters no one would demand proof of your original item if you show up with a copy, and even if you actually sold the original book you can always claim that you still have it somewhere, you just don't remember where it is. Legally no one could do something against you in cases like this one, even if laws as written (and I'm not sure of that either) it is illegal to do it.


A very difficult precedent to set, but probably technically illegal and you would have to be a special kind of stupid to get caught. What would be arguably legal is that you basically purchase 2 copies of the codex now with the digital code for the app, so you kind of still own access to the IP via the app.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in ca
Poisonous Kroot Headhunter





I've never had any issues so long as its just been local events, if I ever went to a GT or something I'd shell out for the Codex of whatever army I decided to use. See, here's the thing about expensive codices and mountains of supplements, if I actually bought everything I need, I wouldn't be able to afford any models.

I collect, to varying degrees, most of the armies in the game. Rather than go for specific models, I'll usually just buy whatever the current discount box is (Piety/Pain, Hexfire, ect), paint it up and use those with whatever I've gotten from that army previously and pick up the occasion unit here of there to flesh out whatever list I've come up with. I have a lot of fun not sticking to one army and trying a bit of everything.

That being said, if I had to buy every codex and supplement that they made in order to play all these armies, I wouldn't be buying any more models from them, because I wouldn't have any leftover money. It would honestly probably make me sick of the game too, not having anything new to paint/build just trying to keep up with rules for what I have.

It's sites like wahapedia that keep me invested in the game. I can skim all the rules whenever I want to get an idea of new armies/lists I want to try and can print off whatever rules I need to play them. There are several times where I've been reading the site and have gone out to get something because of that, which I never would have seen elsewhere since I wouldn't have had the codex, or supplement, or random White Dwarf article, or FW sheet, or whatever else. It's what brought me back into 40k in the first place as I hadn't played since early 7th and taught myself the new rules at the end of 8th from their site before deciding to commit to 9th. Since then, I've easily spent well over a grand on models, updating my collection, but that could have easily all gone to books if I needed all the codices for: Space Marines, Astra Militarum, Grey Knights, Tau, Chaos, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, Eldar, Sisters. Plus all the supplements for them and Inquisition and Assassins. If that was my barrier to entry, I never would have gotten back into the game.

Not to mention that investing in models is forever (assuming the unit isn't discontinued) where you need to replace your codex every few years. Not that big a deal for only one army, but in my case, it's just an infinite loop.

I think I got off on a bit of a tangent here, but for people like me, having printable rules be allowed is what keeps me playing the game and buying more models. What's the old expression, better half of something than all of nothing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/20 15:51:24


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Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




I still feel like charging money for rules is predatory, outdated, and just plain insulting. Getting a supplement for a faction whose core codex is not updated is pointless, the army doesn’t function but now it doesn’t function with more rules. Getting a reprint of the last editions rules even more so...

Knowing that you are likely 2 or 3 years away for having all your rules invalidated anyways is even worse.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
On a Canoptek Spyder's Waiting List




Wahapedia got me into this game and it'll always be my main source for looking at the rules while playing.
   
Made in it
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





macluvin wrote:
I still feel like charging money for rules is predatory, outdated, and just plain insulting. Getting a supplement for a faction whose core codex is not updated is pointless, the army doesn’t function but now it doesn’t function with more rules. Getting a reprint of the last editions rules even more so...

Knowing that you are likely 2 or 3 years away for having all your rules invalidated anyways is even worse.

On one side I agree with you. On the other I just want the best possible product.

I wouldn't care spending a (very) limited sum of money every month to have access to an original version of the frequently cited Russian website.
It is so well done and easy to use that I use it every single time I play, with a tablet.
But for me to be willing to pay, that sum of money would have to be very limited (€3-4 per month, max) and it should be for a website of comparable quality, if not superior. I'd expect frequent rebalancing and point updates if it were a GW resource.
No janky app to download and update, a website I can browse with any portable device I want or with my PC.

Right now the best possible rules source is that Russian one so I'm more than glad it exist and more than happy to support its development.


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




macluvin wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


IANAL, but my recollection from when I studied the minutiae of this is it's not legal. The copy for your own personal use is basically a back-up of the item that you own. If you no longer own the item you're not legally entitled to own the back-up.


I don't know. For starters no one would demand proof of your original item if you show up with a copy, and even if you actually sold the original book you can always claim that you still have it somewhere, you just don't remember where it is. Legally no one could do something against you in cases like this one, even if laws as written (and I'm not sure of that either) it is illegal to do it.


A very difficult precedent to set, but probably technically illegal and you would have to be a special kind of stupid to get caught. What would be arguably legal is that you basically purchase 2 copies of the codex now with the digital code for the app, so you kind of still own access to the IP via the app.


GW could just revoke the licence, unlikely anyone using a copy could really get in a situation where that was to happen. And I feel anyone that managed such a Fate would buy a new copy before doing something stupid right.
   
 
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