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 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Let’s completely ignore that crusaders, death cult assassins and priests have always been part of this army.

While Priests have always been part of the SoB army, DCA and Crusaders haven't been.

DCA were added in 3rd edition, after being introduced in the =][= game. Crusaders also make their first appearance in the 3rd edition -hunters books.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
They aren't exactly widely available, but GW has already released a plastic priest, death cult assassin, and crusader model, either through kill team or Blackstone fortress. Awkward to get, very. But GW has already done it.

Which are, to the best of my knowledge, all contained on sprues that contain other models. That makes them less likely to be released, as it either means doing combined kits (how do you explain those extra units in a Sisters force?) or cutting new sprues (which has an up-front and not insignificant expense tied to it).

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
That said, a priest plus retinue kit would be a good cross kit for sisters and guard

That would be grand. I'd be first in line for that. I just don't see it happening.

Blackstone Fortress is a game from the Specialist Games/Forge World department. It's not "mainstream GW" (depending on how prevalent the GW vs. ex-FW-&-now-specialist-games silos in GW still are).

It probably also was on a cheaper aluminium mould with limited durability to begin with and thus gone (though I suppose the digital file is still around and could be used for tooling a new sprue).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Sorry, but I just don’t agree with your line of argument here. You’re essentially claiming that a big chunk of the units in this army are not actually part of this army because they’re not actually Sororitas. Never mind that arco flagellants aren’t Sisters and penitent engines aren’t sister, but they do have plastic kits. Let’s completely ignore that crusaders, death cult assassins and priests have always been part of this army.

You could argue that what I’m wanting is the old Witch Hunters army, not strictly sisters. Well yes. Yes it is, because to me that’s what the army is. Culling the army of anything that isn’t an actual Sister of Battle strips away a lot of the character. Luckily that isn’t what GW have done because penitent engines and arco flagellants! However they’ve left the main house unfinished but started working on an extension.

And, again, I don't disagree with your sentiment, but that's not what's happening with the Sisters.

It's a hard argument to make that GW shouldn't be adding to the Sisters when there's so much of their range that hasn't been updated. The truth is their entire range was updated, and this is really the first time they're adding a bunch of new things to the Sisters.

And yes, I am saying it is because certain things aren't specifically Sororitas. This is the Adepta Sororitas Codex, and not the Witch Hunter Codex, no matter how much you, me or anyone else may want a return to that duality. Right now that's just not on the cards. We're going to get a new Sisters book, and I fear that means jettisoning anything that isn't strictly a sister.

And before you say it, remember that the fluff is arbitrary. GW could turn around tomorrow and say that Achos and Penitent Engines have always been Sororitas units - Convent Serfs that did bad things turned into mindless killing machines, and so on.

We’ll have to agree to differ. You seem to be arguing that if it’s not a nun in power armour, then it’s not a sisters unit. I’m arguing that if it’s in the Sisters codex then it is. You’re probably right. Ultimately this is the very reason why I’m rapidly losing interest in 40K. My favourite faction barely exists anymore

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I don't even mind Sisters getting new units before existing units which are still not updated to plastic kits.

My problem is that Sisters don't need a third Celestian unit; a sixth melee unit in the already crowded elite slot; and a second shield equipped bodyguard unit (of which these are the fourth!)

A third Celestian unit? What's the second? Command Squads don't exist anymore. I guess you could be talking about the weird Holy Power Lifter suits they're getting?
Bodyguard unit? Only Celestians (and Geminae I guess, but only for Celestine) have a form of Bodyguard rule. It's also weird to class Death Cult Assassins or Arco-flagellants as 'bodyguards' for Priests in any sense, even if Crusaders should sort of fill that role. For Priests.

This is the first on-foot, power-armoured Sororitas melee unit. It's a role that makes sense to be filled, especially given Celestians have always been better in melee than regular Sisters to denote their eliteness, despite not having melee weapon options. These certainly feel like a much more natural inclusion to the army than the shiny new Holy Power Lifters, or even the Dogmata and new Tank.

Us3Less wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
... SOME form of book release for sisters is immident...). Whether that's with codex or not is another thing as it could be part of Charadron supplement like ad mech got new models last year along psychic awakening.

I had been thinking about this as well, but considering the leaked datasheets for the Triumph and the Exorcist, it seems unlikely to be just a supplement with the new models. Of course, this assumes the leaks are true and I have no clue if they are, but they seem legit. Codex seems much more likely than a War Zone book to me.

True. Which is why i said i would be betting for codex may

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I don't even mind Sisters getting new units before existing units which are still not updated to plastic kits.

My problem is that Sisters don't need a third Celestian unit; a sixth melee unit in the already crowded elite slot; and a second shield equipped bodyguard unit (of which these are the fourth!)

A third Celestian unit? What's the second? Command Squads don't exist anymore. I guess you could be talking about the weird Holy Power Lifter suits they're getting?
Bodyguard unit? Only Celestians (and Geminae I guess, but only for Celestine) have a form of Bodyguard rule. It's also weird to class Death Cult Assassins or Arco-flagellants as 'bodyguards' for Priests in any sense, even if Crusaders should sort of fill that role. For Priests.

This is the first on-foot, power-armoured Sororitas melee unit. It's a role that makes sense to be filled, especially given Celestians have always been better in melee than regular Sisters to denote their eliteness, despite not having melee weapon options. These certainly feel like a much more natural inclusion to the army than the shiny new Holy Power Lifters, or even the Dogmata and new Tank.

Yep, exactly. I have long wished that we would have a proper Celestian melee unit and now we got it. It is boring for Celestians to just be normal sisters with same gear, this actually sets them apart and gives them unique look and role. As for the model, I think it looks pretty excellent; I'm not completely sold on the shield, but that's easy to swap.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Sorry, but I just don’t agree with your line of argument here. You’re essentially claiming that a big chunk of the units in this army are not actually part of this army because they’re not actually Sororitas. Never mind that arco flagellants aren’t Sisters and penitent engines aren’t sister, but they do have plastic kits. Let’s completely ignore that crusaders, death cult assassins and priests have always been part of this army.

You could argue that what I’m wanting is the old Witch Hunters army, not strictly sisters. Well yes. Yes it is, because to me that’s what the army is. Culling the army of anything that isn’t an actual Sister of Battle strips away a lot of the character. Luckily that isn’t what GW have done because penitent engines and arco flagellants! However they’ve left the main house unfinished but started working on an extension.

And, again, I don't disagree with your sentiment, but that's not what's happening with the Sisters.

It's a hard argument to make that GW shouldn't be adding to the Sisters when there's so much of their range that hasn't been updated. The truth is their entire range was updated, and this is really the first time they're adding a bunch of new things to the Sisters.

And yes, I am saying it is because certain things aren't specifically Sororitas. This is the Adepta Sororitas Codex, and not the Witch Hunter Codex, no matter how much you, me or anyone else may want a return to that duality. Right now that's just not on the cards. We're going to get a new Sisters book, and I fear that means jettisoning anything that isn't strictly a sister.

And before you say it, remember that the fluff is arbitrary. GW could turn around tomorrow and say that Achos and Penitent Engines have always been Sororitas units - Convent Serfs that did bad things turned into mindless killing machines, and so on.

We’ll have to agree to differ. You seem to be arguing that if it’s not a nun in power armour, then it’s not a sisters unit. I’m arguing that if it’s in the Sisters codex then it is. You’re probably right. Ultimately this is the very reason why I’m rapidly losing interest in 40K. My favourite faction barely exists anymore

GW grabbed the units from the WH codex to make the Sister Codex to fill it out. Now that the existing Sisters kits are all done they look to be phasing out the WH part of the Sister codex.

As it looks right now it certainly seems like GW intends to make it a book full of nuns in power armour.
With this new Shield unit I expect Crusaders will be gone, Priest probably gone with the new foot character.
Even Penitent engines could be gone with the Sister walker suit thing, but that might be a long shot.

And yes, if you were a fan of the WH part then that sucks.

 Ordana wrote:
Even Penitent engines could be gone with the Sister walker suit thing, but that might be a long shot.

Penitent Engines are a new plastic kit. They're not going anywhere.

 Ordana wrote:
GW grabbed the units from the WH codex to make the Sister Codex to fill it out. Now that the existing Sisters kits are all done they look to be phasing out the WH part of the Sister codex.

As it looks right now it certainly seems like GW intends to make it a book full of nuns in power armour.

Non-sisters have been a part of the sisters army since they were first published - Witch Hunters actually chopped down on the ecclesiarchal side to make room for the inquisition.

It would be a shame to further lose part of what separates them from just being a 'weak marines' faction, but GW certainly aren't above culling a unit because the model is old and sells poorly. Penitents and arcos are safe at least, unless GW decides that sisters players need to buy two books going forwards...

A.T. wrote:
Non-sisters have been a part of the sisters army since they were first published - Witch Hunters actually chopped down on the ecclesiarchal side to make room for the inquisition.

And Genestealer Hybrids and Squigs were once part of the Tyranid list. Also when Sisters got their first 'Dex they had 6 actual Sisters units (Canoness, Sister Superior, Sister Squad, Serephim, Rhinos and Immolators). Things have moved on since then. The requirements of non-Sisters units to bulk out the army simply isn't there anymore.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And Genestealer Hybrids and Squigs were once part of the Tyranid list.

In Rogue Trader perhaps, alongside Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau.

Chopping out the non-sisters element would be more akin to what happened to grey knights. Though at least the sisters start from a better position in terms of their unit range.

Sorry, but at what point did GW state that all non sister units will be removed from their V9 codex ?

That witch hunter inquisitors are no longer part of the codex, that I aknowledge, and it's not a new thing either.

I agree with H.B.M.C. on that matter : the days before are long gone and GW will decide what will be in the V9 codex in the end or not. But so far, they never showed anything saying priests won't be in anymore. They're just showing the new units one after the other, that's all. And they happen to be all sisters until now - shocking in a new sister codex, really !

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I don't even mind Sisters getting new units before existing units which are still not updated to plastic kits.

My problem is that Sisters don't need a third Celestian unit; a sixth melee unit in the already crowded elite slot; and a second shield equipped bodyguard unit (of which these are the fourth!)

A third Celestian unit? What's the second? Command Squads don't exist anymore.

Zephyrim.

Background-wise and thematically, Celestians, new Celestians, Geminae, and Crusaders (Pontifex Guard) are all bodyguard units; even if they don't all have rules to reflect that fact.

This is the first on-foot, power-armoured Sororitas melee unit. It's a role that makes sense to be filled, especially given Celestians have always been better in melee than regular Sisters to denote their eliteness, despite not having melee weapon options.

It's almost like the new Celestians should just be new weapon options for the existing Celestian unit...

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Zephyrim.

They're not Celestians. More like prophets, chosen amongst the sisters "in permanent connection with the God-Emperor". They're not bodyguards as well.

Hell, even their description isn't on the same page than Celestians (they're put with Seraphims, who aren't Celestians either).


Crusaders aren't part of the Adepta Sororitas, so pointless to put them on the same level than Celestians.

And Geminae are specifically bodyguards to Saint Celestine...and they're not Celestians either.

You're mistaking the general role and the background, here. Being a Celestian is like being a Veteran Space Marine - you're earning that rank through deeds and experience. That's explained in the background of the current codex.

I have yet to see a actual sisters of battle player that dont like the inclusion of new stuff to their codex. Some can, aesthetically, like them more or less, or even dislike them, but the fact that what they are adding to the codex are NEW SITERS OF BATTLE UNITS in 20 years is excelent.

And I would love for plastic crusaders, I have ran in the past lists with 30 of these fellow. Heck, give me crusaders in jetbikes with laser-lances like that silly 2D Clone Wars episode and I'll make a full bretonnian space force of them. Just like I would LOVE for GW to release an expasion of the Vespid with new plastic vespid, a vespid HQ and maybe some vespid units, but wishing is free.

But Sisters of Battle are Sisters of Battle, now and in the future. And yes, most sister of battle players are glad to finally have a actual sister of battle meele unit on foot.

 Galas wrote:

But Sisters of Battle are Sisters of Battle, now and in the future. And yes, most sister of battle players are glad to finally have a actual sister of battle meele unit on foot.

You forgot to mention "durable" in that description. Otherwise, if it's just about having a sister of battle melee unit on foot...we already have them and they're the Repentia sisters.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I don't even mind Sisters getting new units before existing units which are still not updated to plastic kits.

My problem is that Sisters don't need a third Celestian unit; a sixth melee unit in the already crowded elite slot; and a second shield equipped bodyguard unit (of which these are the fourth!)

A third Celestian unit? What's the second? Command Squads don't exist anymore.

Zephyrim.

Background-wise and thematically, Celestians, new Celestians, Geminae, and Crusaders (Pontifex Guard) are all bodyguard units; even if they don't all have rules to reflect that fact.

If you class Zephyrim as Celestians, then I guess Seraphim are Celestians, too.
Geminae are only the bodyguard of Celestine specifically, both in rules and fluff. And there's only two of them in the entire universe.
As stated, Crusaders don't even have a Bodyguard rule, and even if they did it's doubtful they'd protect anything except Priests (both thematically and otherwise).

This is the first on-foot, power-armoured Sororitas melee unit. It's a role that makes sense to be filled, especially given Celestians have always been better in melee than regular Sisters to denote their eliteness, despite not having melee weapon options.

It's almost like the new Celestians should just be new weapon options for the existing Celestian unit...

Ok? But why does it really matter that these are a seperate unit over being weapon options? If anything, them being a serperate unit is better in some ways because it means you can take 3 units of each.
GW would need to make new models either way. You'd also still need to use an elite slot (assuming these are indeed an Elite unit, which admittedly is very very likely). I'm really not seeing the issue aside from mixing and matching special/heavy weapons or bolters?

Did you also complain when GW made Zephyrim a seperate unit to Seraphim? If so then fine, but othewise I'm not seeing why these are an afront to god (or the God Emperor as it were )

 Ordana wrote:

Even Penitent engines could be gone with the Sister walker suit thing, but that might be a long shot.

You realize if they remove that then it's either mortificators are out or they are going to redo mortificator kit barely year since release?

Sarouan wrote:

 Galas wrote:

But Sisters of Battle are Sisters of Battle, now and in the future. And yes, most sister of battle players are glad to finally have a actual sister of battle meele unit on foot.

You forgot to mention "durable" in that description. Otherwise, if it's just about having a sister of battle melee unit on foot...we already have them and they're the Repentia sisters.

Repentia are disgraced Sisters that have sinned against the God Emperor... that's a completely different beast to a unit of power-armoured Sisters that aren't disgraced.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Repentia are disgraced Sisters that have sinned against the God Emperor... that's a completely different beast to a unit of power-armoured Sisters that aren't disgraced.

Disgraced sisters are still sisters, which is why they do have the "Order" keyword. And that's all that matters here rulewise.

And yes, these new celestians are clearly about combining a better "resistance" than the repentia glass cannons with more adapted close combat weapons for sure.


The article specifies the "standard" celestians can still be made with the "basic" battle sister box and they're still talking about a "more elite army if you chose that way", so I guess they'll still be Elite indeed.

But here’s the issue I have and the reason I’m upset (that’s too strong a word, it’s just toy soldiers after all), the army used to be called Witch Hunters. They renamed the army to the name of just one part of the army, then we have people saying that all those other units really have no place being in the army that they used to be a part of. Talk about moving the goal posts. It’s like if they’d renamed Craftworld Eldar, Aspect Warriors and people were now claiming that all those other units were just there to make up the numbers and really have no part in the future of the Aspect Warriors army.

Or to put it another way, you used to be able to legitimately play both Witch Hunters and Grey Knights as an Inquisition army with support from either Grey Knights or Sisters. That’s basically gone. That makes me sad to the point that I don’t want to have anything to do with 40K these days other than reading the fiction (about Inquisitors mostly).

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
But here’s the issue I have and the reason I’m upset (that’s too strong a word, it’s just toy soldiers after all), the army used to be called Witch Hunters. They renamed the army to the name of just one part of the army, then we have people saying that all those other units really have no place being in the army that they used to be a part of. Talk about moving the goal posts. It’s like if they’d renamed Craftworld Eldar, Aspect Warriors and people were now claiming that all those other units were just there to make up the numbers and really have no part in the future of the Aspect Warriors army.

Or to put it another way, you used to be able to legitimately play both Witch Hunters and Grey Knights as an Inquisition army with support from either Grey Knights or Sisters. That’s basically gone. That makes me sad to the point that I don’t want to have anything to do with 40K these days other than reading the fiction (about Inquisitors mostly).

The army was sister of battle then became witch hunters in third. So if what it used to be called is upsetting you then forget about it. They were sisters first so it’s ok.

Andykp wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
But here’s the issue I have and the reason I’m upset (that’s too strong a word, it’s just toy soldiers after all), the army used to be called Witch Hunters. They renamed the army to the name of just one part of the army, then we have people saying that all those other units really have no place being in the army that they used to be a part of. Talk about moving the goal posts. It’s like if they’d renamed Craftworld Eldar, Aspect Warriors and people were now claiming that all those other units were just there to make up the numbers and really have no part in the future of the Aspect Warriors army.

Or to put it another way, you used to be able to legitimately play both Witch Hunters and Grey Knights as an Inquisition army with support from either Grey Knights or Sisters. That’s basically gone. That makes me sad to the point that I don’t want to have anything to do with 40K these days other than reading the fiction (about Inquisitors mostly).

The army was sister of battle then became witch hunters in third. So if what it used to be called is upsetting you then forget about it. They were sisters first so it’s ok.

I honestly can’t tell if it’s my fault or your fault that you so utterly missed the point I was trying to make.

Whatever.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
But here’s the issue I have and the reason I’m upset (that’s too strong a word, it’s just toy soldiers after all), the army used to be called Witch Hunters. They renamed the army to the name of just one part of the army, then we have people saying that all those other units really have no place being in the army that they used to be a part of. Talk about moving the goal posts. It’s like if they’d renamed Craftworld Eldar, Aspect Warriors and people were now claiming that all those other units were just there to make up the numbers and really have no part in the future of the Aspect Warriors army.

Let me tell you about when GW renamed my Sisters of Battle “witch hunters” for some reason and threw in a bunch of sideshow units rather than actually developing the existing army list which had been one of the best in 2nd edition. It’s like if they renamed imperial guard “warriors of the imperium” and added Custodes and assassins and sisters of silence out of nowhere, shoehorning them into the background and claiming it was always thus.

I dont know if I would say its impossible now to make a witch hunters style army, my force is sisters + inquisitor + storm troopers. Though would be nice the if the 1 inquisitor per detachment could bring a small acolyte squad with him.

Personally I wouldn't mind if Arco flagellants, crusaders and death cults were moved to an inquisition book and expand the inquisition line, give the inquisition a slightly better roster vs just acolytes.

Though I also would like certain fluffy factions to make taking them as allies cheaper, like inquisition detachment costing 1cp less. An allies matrix honestly would be nice, like bringing in just a single knight, an inquisition detachment or daemon allies for chaos having a refund on some of the CP costs to represent close ties.

tneva82 wrote:
However if you don't have codex already now would be very, very, VERY risky moment to buy it. It's just matter of weeks before we know one way or another.

I bought it mainly for enjoyment. I have been considering some tentative steps back into tabletop play (when more stuff opens up) and honestly my first thought was one of the ‘side games’ like Necromunda or Kill Team... but the latter seem so to be a possibly put of print base set and I want clear if an expansion book would allow me to use my old metal Sisters and such. So I grabbed the Codex to see what was going on in the modern game.

I last played several editions ago during the Witchhunters era Codex.

In general the ‘new’ book doesn’t look bad, but seems to inherit the old issue that a lot of me metal era sisters stuff was stretching a handful of troop sculpts to fill in the units. So I felt like we had (and still have) basic troop squads, troop squads that can take more special weapons, troop squads that can take more heavy weapons, veteran troops, etc. that are still the same basic models in different mixes. This seems to have carried on even as the models got upgraded. There’s basically the Celestians and the Battle Sisters as the basis for all squads.

I like the ‘religious nutter’ aspects like the Inquisitors, but kind of feel they may be better off on their own with current design philosophies.

I do feel like the new codex is a bit pricey for what feels likely maybe a dozen pages of rules and some background I didn’t find to be the most inspiring. I don’t regret buying it even as I thought it was the ‘new’ book.

My personal take on the SoB was that they had a lot of ceremony and devotion but we’re at least as ‘practical’ about war a second the SM but GW does seem to prefer having them really flaunt the ‘cathedralsmon wheels’ aesthetic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I meant Seraphim not Celestians in the above, WH era Celestians being Battle Sisters with a better paint job.)

The more I think about it, the more I believe we sister players got "Lumineth-ed" with the first codex.

It was just easier to think that was just about it because the core was very similar to what we were used to for so many years (yeah, I know, we got the Zephyrim and Mortifiers s truly "new units", but let's be honest : they're seraphim with power swords and better penitent engines with heavy bolters).

Now we have the "second wave" like the Lumineth that significantly give more units to the army. Not especially filling all of our needs, but well...I see that V9 codex just like the second battletome for the Lumineth, honestly.

And it's clearly about the Adepta Sororitas indeed. Which I don't mind at all !

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
But here’s the issue I have and the reason I’m upset (that’s too strong a word, it’s just toy soldiers after all), the army used to be called Witch Hunters.

If that can comfort you, the sisters still enjoy hunting witches. Soooo technically...they can still be called witch hunters.

Also, "Adepta Sororitas" is easier to copyright than "Witch Hunters" or "Inquisition".

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Let me tell you about when GW renamed my Sisters of Battle “witch hunters” for some reason and threw in a bunch of sideshow units rather than actually developing the existing army list which had been one of the best in 2nd edition.

The 2nd ed book had 6 sisters units, 7 ecclesiarchy units (8 if you count the cavalry), and two vehicles.

I believe the death cultists are technically the only legacy of the Inquisition left in the book. Crusaders are ecclesiarchy units (they were henchmen, but so were hospitallers and sisters dialogus back then), as are arcos, priests, and penitents.

If GW didn't keep kicking the inquisition to the curb it wouldn't matter if the cultists were moved out into a separate book ynnari-style. They do fit better with the inquisitors but as it stands that move is near enough a squatting for the forseeable future.

tneva82 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Even Penitent engines could be gone with the Sister walker suit thing, but that might be a long shot.

You realize if they remove that then it's either mortificators are out or they are going to redo mortificator kit barely year since release?

Yeah I forgot how new the kit is. They are not going away.