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it is not inherently a mechanical problem if some or all of the AP stat of a weapon can be wasted due to an invuln.
I'm not really saying it is. The AP 'waste' is a secondary thing, just an added additional thought. The point was more about how Invuln saves effect the efficiency and reliability of single shot, high damage weapons. It becomes a binary, 'on or off' effect compared to anything with a higher rate of fire.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 11:53:14
The real problem I think is how "good" invul saves are now, in part because GW have handed out AP to everyone for no points. If the Raider was in fact a flying Rhino and nothing else, it would be worse at taking fire from most active sources in the game. One day massed autocannons will be meta viable, but I'm not sure its today.
Definitely some truth to this.
The Lascannon profile for example, is problematic for two reasons: Yeah, the damage is swingy - it sucks when you roll a 1 and you effectively shot a las-gun at a target, but they also only give you a single shot.
You shoot one at my Knight, and after you roll to hit, wound, you still have a 50% chance of that attack doing nothing - because I can have a 4++. Much of the AP that you likely are paying for in the weapons profile, may as well not be present.
Raiders will shrug off a full third of all damage thrown at them, regardless of it's source, because of that 5++. And again, that's after you pass two other points of failure.
This quickly becomes a discussion of a possible mechanical problem in 40K rather than anything to do with Raiders specifically though.
it is not inherently a mechanical problem if some or all of the AP stat of a weapon can be wasted due to an invuln.
Already, the strength, AP and damage stats of a weapon are all conditional upon the stats of the target. firing S9 at T6 wastes 2 points of strength. Firing AP-3 at sv 4+/5++ wastes 2 points of AP. That's an inefficient target to shoot then - good thing there are S6/S7 Ap-/Ap-1 weapons that you can fire that won't waste any stats at all.
Currently I feel like 10-15pts undercosted, but the defensive stats it has in comparison with the 'standard vehicle chassis' are good for the game, not bad. It is good for the game to have a vehicle that exists that makes high-AP high-strength antitank weapons less optimal and makes mid-strength low-AP weapons like autocannons more optimal. Not having there be one optimal class of weapon to kill X category of thing is good.
Tyel wrote: The raider got major buffs with no real points increase and this is almost certainly part of the problem.
The Drukhari transports (and troops) got a crippling hike in points in the Munitorum Field Manual, for no reason apparent at the time.
Are you talking the 2020 MFM? Because in 2021 they went down 5pts.
No the Raider with DL at the start of 8th was 85 and the DC was 80, they changed the points b.c DC was clearly better for less points and the Raider with DL went down in points (Edit: this was 2018 CA I believe), in 9th it went back up to 85pts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 11:56:57
"oy lads, ladsladslads I know you're about to do that ol' one minute average damage calculation on those two weapons you can take on the bleedin' unit we always seem to get the bloody weapons costs wrong on, but what's all this then there's a sale on down at nandos?"
"oy oy oy oy, feth this runnin' then I'll just bloody flip 'em around again that seemed to get the spankers off our backs for a few months last time!"
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Never said anything about Raiders being perfectly pointed, and the only units that I want to take that don't fit in Razorbacks are Terminators.
It can be a problem for people whose whole armies are made out of termintors or large chunks being primaris. I ain't gonna lie though, I wish termintors could drive around in rhinos and razorbacks.
Well once upon a time they could... I'm pretty sure in the 2e launch White Dwarf the BA army took a rhino for that exact purpose. The major issue I've had with assault termies is that thier delivery systems costs as much, if not more than the unit it's self... However thats getting sidetracked...
Are people taking raiders outside the role of durable transport? The only way I can see players wanting to take 8-9 raiders is that they'd treat them as main battle tanks, and the dark lance is not good enough to warrant the points. I suppose if the raider were filled with kabalite warriors with blasters, a dark lance, and splinter racks it would be decent, but having an additional four or so raiders kitted out that way in addition to everything else the Drukhari player wants to bring will leave them thin on points.
I have not seen a top list with more than 6 so far. The top 2 from that 8 round event was 6 and 4. No one takes them just to take them empty, they are not good enough to just take without a purpose (85pts for 10w mobile single DL is not good enough by it self lol). They take them b.c they need them. If you need 3 you take 3, if you need 5 you take 5.
Edit: Maybe if venoms were cheaper people would take them empty? But not a raider, not anymore at least back in the day with old vehicles rules (3rd-5th for example) empty raiders were really good b.c movement blocks, tie ups in melee, charge blocks, etc... and DE had beaststars as well as terrain had real rules so you could have things out of transports and live.
I'd agree a single DL isn't enough to warrant getting an otherwise empty Raider. However, I don't think I'm alone in thinking that sub 90ts for a fast, flying, really quite durable (that 5++ is so good), open topped transport would be quite a bargain. I think almost every army could put such a transport to good use.
The force multiplication affect is simply huge – Liquifiers (especially DT), Kalabite Squads (that can bring a couple of blasters, their own DL, and a phantasm GL) can fire with relative impunity out of their surprisingly hard to crack flying boxes.
That you get a DL on top of this is means that the Raider is simply, and quite utterly amazing.
Whilst you may be buying the Raider for the transport of (upto) 11 unfriendly space elves, you do also get a really nice weapon (which may have a re-roll depending on selections). Granted 1 won't do much, but when you take 4-6 raider you can easily end up with ½ a dozen DLs. I think this is clearly a contributory factor to the players feeling that when they bring 2k of Drukhari they’ve got an extra 200 or so points on the field.
To me a reasonable ‘best case’ of under costing is raising the Raider (inc DL) by 15 (if not 20) points to account for the DL. So those 4/6 Raiders are, at present bring an extra 60 – 120 points (4 x 15 pts and 6 x 20pts).
The ‘Worst Case’ is 6 Raiders bring 6 DL, which is the equivalent firepower of 2 Ravagers (already pretty appealing prices at sub 150pts), which would put the ‘extra’ capability from 6 Raiders to just above 275 pts…
Of the two I'd lean towards the former.
Empty raider is pointless, there are a lot of units with better anti-tank shooting than Raider. Ravager is even worst because it could get only 1 reroll on his 3 shots.
The benefit of having fast transport with units is that it give you board control and deny the opponent primary and secondary points. Because its more effective to kill Raider in melee, but than the infantry pop up and you just get outscored, without you having chance to catch up latter rounds, where drukhari have lost most of the army.
There is a reason drukhari have such enormousness average points score. It`s also probably super bad experience, because people feel they can`t do nothing to change the score.
From other side it prevent passive and boring gameplay, that was becoming popular with DG and DA releases.
The mechanical issue I think is that many armies don't have effective S6/S7 AP-1 2 damage style guns. There is also I suspect a meta issue - in that if you were to pack loads of these and run into DG you'd be stuffed.
On paper for instance a raider takes 7/9 times more damage from an autocannon than a rhino - while the rhino only takes 25% more damage from a lascannon (50% from a dark lance/melta). So if autocannons were point for point as effective as say lascannons, and as prevalent in the meta, you'd find raiders were comparably soft. But they aren't. And it seems unlikely to imagine they ever will be.
Raiders should probably go back to T5, as it would boost both S5 and S6 weapons against them. Or you could adopt the rule of 3 for transports, which sort of alienates from a collectors standpoint but from a pure "game balance and encouraging variety" might not be the worst thing in the world.
Tyel wrote: The mechanical issue I think is that many armies don't have effective S6/S7 AP-1 2 damage style guns. There is also I suspect a meta issue - in that if you were to pack loads of these and run into DG you'd be stuffed.
On paper for instance a raider takes 7/9 times more damage from an autocannon than a rhino - while the rhino only takes 25% more damage from a lascannon (50% from a dark lance/melta). So if autocannons were point for point as effective as say lascannons, and as prevalent in the meta, you'd find raiders were comparably soft. But they aren't. And it seems unlikely to imagine they ever will be.
Raiders should probably go back to T5, as it would boost both S5 and S6 weapons against them. Or you could adopt the rule of 3 for transports, which sort of alienates from a collectors standpoint but from a pure "game balance and encouraging variety" might not be the worst thing in the world.
"A unit that exists is inconvenient to target with the weapons that I am skewing into currently, therefore that unit must be nerfed statwise so that I don't have to change the weapons I'm taking to counter it."
They're clearly, obviously undercosted by about the intended cost of a dark lance. At current point costs, they'd be just about fine if they didnt have a gun, maybe a little less undercosted than a disintegrator. People whine about the lethality of the game, but then also whine that if they took a balanced TAC list some of their guns would always be sub-optimal.
You want a meta where games last on average to turn 4/5 instead of to turn 3/4? introduce new units with balanced, but distinct defenses into the meta.
.....Also how the feth are Necron vehicles not inherently problematic if Drukhari vehicles are problematic? They've got invulns AND always-on transhuman phys! A melta gun wounds them on FOURS, not threes! Necron ghost arcs are less efficient to shoot with meltaguns, lascannons, autocannons, literally anything than drukhari raiders, they've got different firepower but it's tough to argue that they don't have MORE firepower (20 S4 Ap-1 d1 shots within 12") - why is this unit basically a nothing in the meta and drukhari raiders are somehow the biggest problems in the world?
Could it be, that maybe, the models INSIDE the transport are vastly more threatening?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Could it be, that maybe, the models INSIDE the transport are vastly more threatening?
Than basic Necron Warriors? Say it ain't so. Ghost Arks are also quite pricy at... 145 points I think?
FWIW yes, I think its the units inside offering Eradicator level returns rather than just the raider.
But I'm still going to maintain most armies can't efficiently bring a lot of autocannon style weapons - they are often strangely overcosted. Speaking of Necrons, see... uh, Enmitic Exterminators (and other such weapons) which seem to be damage 1 for reasons unknown to science. Not sure the triple annihilation barge can ride again.
By contrast while we had this strange wave when people couldn't bring nu-MM style weapons, but that seems to be lifting (unfortunately not for Necrons, because of the first codex curse).
the_scotsman wrote: Could it be, that maybe, the models INSIDE the transport are vastly more threatening?
Than basic Necron Warriors? Say it ain't so. Ghost Arks are also quite pricy at... 145 points I think?
FWIW yes, I think its the units inside offering Eradicator level returns rather than just the raider.
But I'm still going to maintain most armies can't efficiently bring a lot of autocannon style weapons - they are often strangely overcosted. Speaking of Necrons, see... uh, Enmitic Exterminators (and other such weapons) which seem to be damage 1 for reasons unknown to science. Not sure the triple annihilation barge can ride again.
By contrast while we had this strange wave when people couldn't bring nu-MM style weapons, but that seems to be lifting (unfortunately not for Necrons, because of the first codex curse).
Ghost arks are pricy at 145pts - they also have 14 wounds and 3+ base saves, and their 1cp defensive stratagem is +1 to that invuln save rather than -1 to hit, which is far less counter-able.
Everyone always gets it twisted - I'm not saying Ghost arks or any necron vehicle are particularly OP. What I'm saying is that the argument of "drukhari vehicles are inherently OP because of their low-T invuln save statline" is and always has been horse crap and it is proven by the fact that necron vehicles have an even more extreme version of that defensive paradigm and are in no way dominating the meta since their release months ago.
Regular destroyers, annihilation barges, Triarch Stalker with Particle Shredder, Doom Scythe loses out on 3pts of AP on its death ray but is otherwise a pretty effective piece dealing 9 wounds to a Raider with its shooting.
Generally, in my opinion anyway, a pretty good return for a non-suicide unit targeting its optimal target should be about 35-50%. Assuming a DL raider is undercosted by about 10-15pts, necrons have plenty of units that achieve that optimal point return.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
You don't think there is a big difference between something costing 145pts and something costing under 100pts? times 6 what is usually run in DE lists that is a 270pts difference.
And if the only thing that gets changed point wise are the lances on the raiders, then the adaptation to it is just going to be that the DE players will cut courts out, and everything else in the lists will stay the same. And I guess when that happens we can wait another 6 months to another CA or FAQ, right?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: You don't think there is a big difference between something costing 145pts and something costing under 100pts? times 6 what is usually run in DE lists that is a 270pts difference.
And if the only thing that gets changed point wise are the lances on the raiders, then the adaptation to it is just going to be that the DE players will cut courts out, and everything else in the lists will stay the same. And I guess when that happens we can wait another 6 months to another CA or FAQ, right?
Yeah, you can actually do the math to figure out exactly how many points a particular weapon is removing per shot. Determine how many lascannons it takes to bring a particular thing down, divide by the points value of the thing, and you've got the value of points that is removed by every weapon shot.
Every weapon save for the new Heavy Bolter profile (or any S5 weapon with low AP) is more efficient at taking down drukhari raiders at their current point cost than any Necron vehicle with Quantum Shielding.
This is not an argument that Drukhari Raiders are not currently undercosted - they are. This is an argument that drukhari raiders do not need stats removed to be inherently balanced, they just need to be properly pointed. Necron vehicles (and, incidentally, drukhari vehicles before the codex which were very nearly the same) were present in the meta before the codex without issues, and it wasn't like people were taking a lot of Heavy Bolters in their lists to counteract them. I believe that currently, Ravagers ARE properly pointed, and a pretty balanced unit - the value of a Dark Lance is about 20 points, so a Dark Lance raider should be about 100 points vs the Ravager's 140.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Gadzilla666 wrote: Echoing Yukishiro1: Everyone here seems to agree that Raiders are underpriced (and most seem to agree by how much), so what are we arguing about?
Presumably, that it is unfair for raiders to be properly priced for their points because T6 Sv4+ 5++ invuln is an inherently unfair defensive statline. that appeared to be what was proposed by Tyel, if I misinterpreted that my bad.
My point being that having a faction whose vehicles are not T7 3+ no invuln is a good thing actually and a thing we should have more of. If SM are going to be 1/3 of the meta then every other army should be as distinct defensively from space marines as is possible, or else every army ever is going to be tailored to beat space marines and coincidentally will be optimal against everybody else.
SM players should WANT every xenos faction to have a wonky, distinct defensive statline that discourages the particular types of weapons that blow up T7 3+. Make necrons and drukhari have weird low-T good invuln vehicles, make Nid Monsters mid-toughness low-save TONS of wounds, make Ork things super high toughness low save mid-wounds so they're really hard to harm with low strength weaponry but meltas and lascannons can blow them sky high.
Automatically Appended Next Post: not every army requires representing the difficulty in killing them the same exact way.
Ork trukks could be T8 W5 Sv4+ to represent that autocannon shells and rockets and lower-strength AT weaponry often blows off unnecessary chunks but a solid hit from a melta or lascannon will often ignite the crude fuel and blow it sky-high in a single shot. Nid monsters could be T6 Sv4+ W24 to represent it being extremely easy to cause SOME harm but the creature having a massive bulk and basically no non-redundant organs that means it's impossible for a single antitank shot to cause critical damage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 14:53:25
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Regular destroyers, annihilation barges, Triarch Stalker with Particle Shredder, Doom Scythe loses out on 3pts of AP on its death ray but is otherwise a pretty effective piece dealing 9 wounds to a Raider with its shooting.
Generally, in my opinion anyway, a pretty good return for a non-suicide unit targeting its optimal target should be about 35-50%. Assuming a DL raider is undercosted by about 10-15pts, necrons have plenty of units that achieve that optimal point return.
I tend to agree on your ratios (although 35% is getting increasingly marginal as the gave moves forward) - and with you in general on 40k so don't take it personally - but I don't think this is right.
So a destroyer is 55 points. Before any buffs/nerfs:
3*2/3*7/6*1/2*2/3*2=1.555. 1.55*85/10=13.22. 13.22/55=24% return. Even if the raider was say 100 points, that's only a 28% return.
Currently Raiders out-shoot Destroyers before any boosts. (2/3*2/3*55=24.44. 24.44/85=28.75% return.)
Particle Shredder Stalker, rerolling 1s to hit is 135 points.
8*2/3*7/6*1/2*2/3*2=4.148. So a 26% return on an 85 point raider. Rising to 30.72% if the raider was at 100 points.
The annihilation barge is a fairer shout I think - although I'm not sure whether you'd go tesla or gauss.
10*1*2/3*1/2=3.33.
3*1*1/2*1/2=0.75.
3*2/3*1/2*2/3*2=1.33.
So in theory lets say 4.66 with the gauss. So quite a bit better - a 31.7% return on the raider at 85 points, rising to 36.8% at 100. All in all its not great.
Karol wrote: You don't think there is a big difference between something costing 145pts and something costing under 100pts? times 6 what is usually run in DE lists that is a 270pts difference.
And if the only thing that gets changed point wise are the lances on the raiders, then the adaptation to it is just going to be that the DE players will cut courts out, and everything else in the lists will stay the same. And I guess when that happens we can wait another 6 months to another CA or FAQ, right?
Yeah before DE no one played the Ghost Ark and after DE no one still will, so taking DE out of the meta means nothing to the Ghost Ark which tells me that the Ghost ark is over costed not necessarily the Raider under costed.
Edit: Grammar
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 15:05:56
Gadzilla666 wrote: Echoing Yukishiro1: Everyone here seems to agree that Raiders are underpriced (and most seem to agree by how much), so what are we arguing about?
Presumably, that it is unfair for raiders to be properly priced for their points because T6 Sv4+ 5++ invuln is an inherently unfair defensive statline. that appeared to be what was proposed by Tyel, if I misinterpreted that my bad.
My point being that having a faction whose vehicles are not T7 3+ no invuln is a good thing actually and a thing we should have more of. If SM are going to be 1/3 of the meta then every other army should be as distinct defensively from space marines as is possible, or else every army ever is going to be tailored to beat space marines and coincidentally will be optimal against everybody else.
SM players should WANT every xenos faction to have a wonky, distinct defensive statline that discourages the particular types of weapons that blow up T7 3+. Make necrons and drukhari have weird low-T good invuln vehicles, make Nid Monsters mid-toughness low-save TONS of wounds, make Ork things super high toughness low save mid-wounds so they're really hard to harm with low strength weaponry but meltas and lascannons can blow them sky high.
Automatically Appended Next Post: not every army requires representing the difficulty in killing them the same exact way.
Ork trukks could be T8 W5 Sv4+ to represent that autocannon shells and rockets and lower-strength AT weaponry often blows off unnecessary chunks but a solid hit from a melta or lascannon will often ignite the crude fuel and blow it sky-high in a single shot. Nid monsters could be T6 Sv4+ W24 to represent it being extremely easy to cause SOME harm but the creature having a massive bulk and basically no non-redundant organs that means it's impossible for a single antitank shot to cause critical damage.
Oh, we're in complete agreement on that. Which is why waayyy back on page 10 I said:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote: An army with a gigantic play percentage as big as marines (rarely under 1 in 3 players) is obviously going to have a difficult time getting over a 50% winrate unless the balance of the game is an absolute joke. It's pretty clear that the marine lists focusing on mobility and durability seem to be doing alright dealing with the splash of the - again, seriously broken pre-FAQ version of - the drukhari list, while the marine chapters like Salamanders and Space wolves that generally rely on overwhelming damage are not doing so hot.
I'm sorry, looking at lists with stuff like 9 MM attack bikes or 3 squads of eradicators I just don't think people aren't tailoring NOW. They're just tailoring their lists to the exact opposite thing that DE and Harlequins are, and obviously that's one-sided as feth.
Yeah, the points efficiency of melta falls off a cliff against an army like Dark Eldar. Hopefully if they become more prevalent that means we'll see less melta spam and more vehicles will become field able. That would be nice. More variety in defensive profiles = less weapon spam. Go TAC or go home.
Some just want to keep spamming the same stuff though, it seems.
the_scotsman wrote: Could it be, that maybe, the models INSIDE the transport are vastly more threatening?
Than basic Necron Warriors? Say it ain't so. Ghost Arks are also quite pricy at... 145 points I think?
FWIW yes, I think its the units inside offering Eradicator level returns rather than just the raider.
But I'm still going to maintain most armies can't efficiently bring a lot of autocannon style weapons - they are often strangely overcosted. Speaking of Necrons, see... uh, Enmitic Exterminators (and other such weapons) which seem to be damage 1 for reasons unknown to science. Not sure the triple annihilation barge can ride again.
By contrast while we had this strange wave when people couldn't bring nu-MM style weapons, but that seems to be lifting (unfortunately not for Necrons, because of the first codex curse).
I think that you have obsession to kill the raiders, killing the raiders will not win you the game.
Tao can kill the raiders, but wytches have strat to ignore OW(Book and Rust) and have option of relic that stop the fallback.
CWE can kill 2-4 raiders, but even than drukhari have more than enough units to do massive damage and take control of the board.
Orc can kill raiders just by volume and have the attacks to kill what is insight, but DE have alot of fight last and strive have fight first and double activation wytches could sweep a lot of bois.Broken socumbus could probably kill the entire squad alone.
More than i think, the real issue is the book of rust, it just provide to many tools that stop counter play and the drukhari having so much CP to fuel that.
I know it`s supposed to be mixed army, but still having 2-5 more CP is super busted, when you have such good options,
Atleast they can make triple patrol coast 2 CP(Start with 10), to force DE players to have harder decisions what to take.
As harlequin player, i also like to have multiple detachment, extra roles, extra relics, but than i start the game with 5 CP.
Having 3 detachment types for paying 2 CP seem really reasonable to me and you can have 3 all in real spade raid, that was the idea of mixed detachment, not having triple patrols, that give you access to extra characters slots.
The ability to include random socumbus in coven or kebal without using traits should also be gone, if it`s not allowed for all other factions.
There should also be more limitations of using the strive cult, but i have the serious suspicion the next book will be as broken as this one and than we will cry about Admech, sisters and whatever thing they include in it.
the_scotsman wrote: Regular destroyers, annihilation barges, Triarch Stalker with Particle Shredder, Doom Scythe loses out on 3pts of AP on its death ray but is otherwise a pretty effective piece dealing 9 wounds to a Raider with its shooting.
Generally, in my opinion anyway, a pretty good return for a non-suicide unit targeting its optimal target should be about 35-50%. Assuming a DL raider is undercosted by about 10-15pts, necrons have plenty of units that achieve that optimal point return.
I tend to agree on your ratios (although 35% is getting increasingly marginal as the gave moves forward) - and with you in general on 40k so don't take it personally - but I don't think this is right.
So a destroyer is 55 points. Before any buffs/nerfs:
3*2/3*7/6*1/2*2/3*2=1.555. 1.55*85/10=13.22. 13.22/55=24% return. Even if the raider was say 100 points, that's only a 28% return.
Currently Raiders out-shoot Destroyers before any boosts. (2/3*2/3*55=24.44. 24.44/85=28.75% return.)
Particle Shredder Stalker, rerolling 1s to hit is 135 points.
8*2/3*7/6*1/2*2/3*2=4.148. So a 26% return on an 85 point raider. Rising to 30.72% if the raider was at 100 points.
The annihilation barge is a fairer shout I think - although I'm not sure whether you'd go tesla or gauss.
10*1*2/3*1/2=3.33.
3*1*1/2*1/2=0.75.
3*2/3*1/2*2/3*2=1.33.
So in theory lets say 4.66 with the gauss. So quite a bit better - a 31.7% return on the raider at 85 points, rising to 36.8% at 100. All in all its not great.
Doom scythe is probably the best bet - if raiders are 100 that'd be something like a 40-45% return as it comes within 1 wound of killing on average.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Could it be, that maybe, the models INSIDE the transport are vastly more threatening?
Than basic Necron Warriors? Say it ain't so. Ghost Arks are also quite pricy at... 145 points I think?
FWIW yes, I think its the units inside offering Eradicator level returns rather than just the raider.
But I'm still going to maintain most armies can't efficiently bring a lot of autocannon style weapons - they are often strangely overcosted. Speaking of Necrons, see... uh, Enmitic Exterminators (and other such weapons) which seem to be damage 1 for reasons unknown to science. Not sure the triple annihilation barge can ride again.
By contrast while we had this strange wave when people couldn't bring nu-MM style weapons, but that seems to be lifting (unfortunately not for Necrons, because of the first codex curse).
I think that you have obsession to kill the raiders, killing the raiders will not win you the game.
Tao can kill the raiders, but wytches have strat to ignore OW(Book and Rust) and have option of relic that stop the fallback.
CWE can kill 2-4 raiders, but even than drukhari have more than enough units to do massive damage and take control of the board.
Orc can kill raiders just by volume and have the attacks to kill what is insight, but DE have alot of fight last and strive have fight first and double activation wytches could sweep a lot of bois.Broken socumbus could probably kill the entire squad alone.
More than i think, the real issue is the book of rust, it just provide to many tools that stop counter play and the drukhari having so much CP to fuel that.
I know it`s supposed to be mixed army, but still having 2-5 more CP is super busted, when you have such good options,
Atleast they can make triple patrol coast 2 CP(Start with 10), to force DE players to have harder decisions what to take.
As harlequin player, i also like to have multiple detachment, extra roles, extra relics, but than i start the game with 5 CP.
Having 3 detachment types for paying 2 CP seem really reasonable to me and you can have 3 all in real spade raid, that was the idea of mixed detachment, not having triple patrols, that give you access to extra characters slots.
The ability to include random socumbus in coven or kebal without using traits should also be gone, if it`s not allowed for all other factions.
There should also be more limitations of using the strive cult, but i have the serious suspicion the next book will be as broken as this one and than we will cry about Admech, sisters and whatever thing they include in it.
The top DE army which was mix of CWE and DE, he also didn't use the +CP 2-3 patrols, he used a Battalion, he paid for a Patrol, and then paid for a Spearhead. So he is down 4CP.
Players don't seem to understand that taking only Patrols is not a buff, its more or less equal to a Battalion with musical chairs as to what gets the limited 2 fast and heavy slots (If you take 2 Coven patrols and 1 wych patrol, well the Coven has 4 fast and 4 heavy slots but the Wych has only 2 and if you wanted Beasts, Hellions, and Reavers then you are out of luck), if you take 3 Patrols yes over all its more troops but its also more tax in HQ's and less slots, especially if you want Kabal, coven, and wych, now its only 2 heavy, elite, and fast for each. Really by limiting the FoC slots the DE player is getting only 2 free CP.
When I play 2-3 Patrols I have to take 2 Wych ones b.c I want to have Hellions, Reavers, and Beasts, that means no matter what my next patrol is heavily limited or I have to add in Kabal into a Wych or Coven detachment and that Kabal units doesn't get any Obsessions so I either take my Archon and Court with obsessions or I take my Coven with Obsessions, its a hard option for me. So having +2CP feels more like a DE sneaking compensation strategy that Vect would do.
If Wrackifiers wasn't so strong or even a thing no one would notice or care that DE gets 2 more CP.
Finally other armies can do similar things too, UM can start with more, Red Scorpions gets a free LoW detachment, and many others can start with more CP too. DE just does at the cost of FoC juggling.
Finally other armies can do similar things too, UM can start with more, Red Scorpions gets a free LoW detachment, and many others can start with more CP too. DE just does at the cost of FoC juggling.
Neither army has had 5 seats in top 8 or a 76% win rate though.
My GK have a psychic power that lets them just gain a CP, I don't think many people consider GK the secret power army of 9th ed.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Finally other armies can do similar things too, UM can start with more, Red Scorpions gets a free LoW detachment, and many others can start with more CP too. DE just does at the cost of FoC juggling.
Neither army has had 5 seats in top 8 or a 76% win rate though.
My GK have a psychic power that lets them just gain a CP, I don't think many people consider GK the secret power army of 9th ed.
That has to do with nerfing DT not a CP issue as DT literally doesn't use any CP. And you also ignore the top list had -4CP with no triple patrols, so its not the bonus 2 CP winning games.
Yeah before DE no one played the Ghost Ark and after DE no one still will, so taking DE out of the meta means nothing to the Ghost Ark which tells me that the Ghost ark is over costed not necessarily the Raider under costed.
Edit: Grammar
I am not sure I am understanding your line of argument here. Because other armies stuff is overcosted it is okey for DE stuff to be over costed and better, because the weaker armies don't get played?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
That doesn't make much sense. 3 patrols is a strict advantage over 1 bat in almost every way except the 3rd required HQ, but what DE army would ever not want 3 HQs - and being able to take more than 3 if you want is a lot more potential flexibility as well? If you want to take 3 of something instead of 2 of it, just take a double patrol of that thing. The only way 3 patrols would ever be more limiting than on bat that can take everything is if you wanted some niche list that takes 3+ of one force org slot of one subfaction, AND 3+ of a different one, AND then choices from a third subfaction in a different force org slot as well.
And of course they even thought of that and threw you a bone with the realspace raid detachment if you really, really want that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 15:54:28
Yeah before DE no one played the Ghost Ark and after DE no one still will, so taking DE out of the meta means nothing to the Ghost Ark which tells me that the Ghost ark is over costed not necessarily the Raider under costed.
Edit: Grammar
I am not sure I am understanding your line of argument here. Because other armies stuff is overcosted it is okey for DE stuff to be over costed and better, because the weaker armies don't get played?
The Argument is IMO the Raider actually is fine and its most other transports that are not, no one has been using them for a reason, so instead of crying "OMG a useful transport we must nerf it" maybe look at the gakky ones no one uses and ask "Wait why are my transport so crappy?"
Also its DT that makes Raiders feel strong, outside of DT the Raider does the same thing they always have been for 23yrs, rush up, shoot once, and unload murdering melee units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 16:02:27
the_scotsman wrote: Could it be, that maybe, the models INSIDE the transport are vastly more threatening?
Than basic Necron Warriors? Say it ain't so. Ghost Arks are also quite pricy at... 145 points I think?
FWIW yes, I think its the units inside offering Eradicator level returns rather than just the raider.
But I'm still going to maintain most armies can't efficiently bring a lot of autocannon style weapons - they are often strangely overcosted. Speaking of Necrons, see... uh, Enmitic Exterminators (and other such weapons) which seem to be damage 1 for reasons unknown to science. Not sure the triple annihilation barge can ride again.
By contrast while we had this strange wave when people couldn't bring nu-MM style weapons, but that seems to be lifting (unfortunately not for Necrons, because of the first codex curse).
I think that you have obsession to kill the raiders, killing the raiders will not win you the game.
Tao can kill the raiders, but wytches have strat to ignore OW(Book and Rust) and have option of relic that stop the fallback.
CWE can kill 2-4 raiders, but even than drukhari have more than enough units to do massive damage and take control of the board.
Orc can kill raiders just by volume and have the attacks to kill what is insight, but DE have alot of fight last and strive have fight first and double activation wytches could sweep a lot of bois.Broken socumbus could probably kill the entire squad alone.
More than i think, the real issue is the book of rust, it just provide to many tools that stop counter play and the drukhari having so much CP to fuel that.
I know it`s supposed to be mixed army, but still having 2-5 more CP is super busted, when you have such good options,
Atleast they can make triple patrol coast 2 CP(Start with 10), to force DE players to have harder decisions what to take.
As harlequin player, i also like to have multiple detachment, extra roles, extra relics, but than i start the game with 5 CP.
Having 3 detachment types for paying 2 CP seem really reasonable to me and you can have 3 all in real spade raid, that was the idea of mixed detachment, not having triple patrols, that give you access to extra characters slots.
The ability to include random socumbus in coven or kebal without using traits should also be gone, if it`s not allowed for all other factions.
There should also be more limitations of using the strive cult, but i have the serious suspicion the next book will be as broken as this one and than we will cry about Admech, sisters and whatever thing they include in it.
The top DE army which was mix of CWE and DE, he also didn't use the +CP 2-3 patrols, he used a Battalion, he paid for a Patrol, and then paid for a Spearhead. So he is down 4CP.
Players don't seem to understand that taking only Patrols is not a buff, its more or less equal to a Battalion with musical chairs as to what gets the limited 2 fast and heavy slots (If you take 2 Coven patrols and 1 wych patrol, well the Coven has 4 fast and 4 heavy slots but the Wych has only 2 and if you wanted Beasts, Hellions, and Reavers then you are out of luck), if you take 3 Patrols yes over all its more troops but its also more tax in HQ's and less slots, especially if you want Kabal, coven, and wych, now its only 2 heavy, elite, and fast for each. Really by limiting the FoC slots the DE player is getting only 2 free CP.
When I play 2-3 Patrols I have to take 2 Wych ones b.c I want to have Hellions, Reavers, and Beasts, that means no matter what my next patrol is heavily limited or I have to add in Kabal into a Wych or Coven detachment and that Kabal units doesn't get any Obsessions so I either take my Archon and Court with obsessions or I take my Coven with Obsessions, its a hard option for me. So having +2CP feels more like a DE sneaking compensation strategy that Vect would do.
If Wrackifiers wasn't so strong or even a thing no one would notice or care that DE gets 2 more CP.
Finally other armies can do similar things too, UM can start with more, Red Scorpions gets a free LoW detachment, and many others can start with more CP too. DE just does at the cost of FoC juggling.
It's 2 free CP for just building a list. And you're complaining that it makes it hard to get everything you want?
Ultras need to spend the points for Gulliman for their extra CP (unless you're talking about something else that I don't know about). And I just checked the rules for Red Scorpions in the Compendium. Where are they getting this free LoW detachment?
the_scotsman wrote: Could it be, that maybe, the models INSIDE the transport are vastly more threatening?
Than basic Necron Warriors? Say it ain't so. Ghost Arks are also quite pricy at... 145 points I think?
FWIW yes, I think its the units inside offering Eradicator level returns rather than just the raider.
But I'm still going to maintain most armies can't efficiently bring a lot of autocannon style weapons - they are often strangely overcosted. Speaking of Necrons, see... uh, Enmitic Exterminators (and other such weapons) which seem to be damage 1 for reasons unknown to science. Not sure the triple annihilation barge can ride again.
By contrast while we had this strange wave when people couldn't bring nu-MM style weapons, but that seems to be lifting (unfortunately not for Necrons, because of the first codex curse).
I think that you have obsession to kill the raiders, killing the raiders will not win you the game.
Tao can kill the raiders, but wytches have strat to ignore OW(Book and Rust) and have option of relic that stop the fallback.
CWE can kill 2-4 raiders, but even than drukhari have more than enough units to do massive damage and take control of the board.
Orc can kill raiders just by volume and have the attacks to kill what is insight, but DE have alot of fight last and strive have fight first and double activation wytches could sweep a lot of bois.Broken socumbus could probably kill the entire squad alone.
More than i think, the real issue is the book of rust, it just provide to many tools that stop counter play and the drukhari having so much CP to fuel that.
I know it`s supposed to be mixed army, but still having 2-5 more CP is super busted, when you have such good options,
Atleast they can make triple patrol coast 2 CP(Start with 10), to force DE players to have harder decisions what to take.
As harlequin player, i also like to have multiple detachment, extra roles, extra relics, but than i start the game with 5 CP.
Having 3 detachment types for paying 2 CP seem really reasonable to me and you can have 3 all in real spade raid, that was the idea of mixed detachment, not having triple patrols, that give you access to extra characters slots.
The ability to include random socumbus in coven or kebal without using traits should also be gone, if it`s not allowed for all other factions.
There should also be more limitations of using the strive cult, but i have the serious suspicion the next book will be as broken as this one and than we will cry about Admech, sisters and whatever thing they include in it.
The top DE army which was mix of CWE and DE, he also didn't use the +CP 2-3 patrols, he used a Battalion, he paid for a Patrol, and then paid for a Spearhead. So he is down 4CP.
Players don't seem to understand that taking only Patrols is not a buff, its more or less equal to a Battalion with musical chairs as to what gets the limited 2 fast and heavy slots (If you take 2 Coven patrols and 1 wych patrol, well the Coven has 4 fast and 4 heavy slots but the Wych has only 2 and if you wanted Beasts, Hellions, and Reavers then you are out of luck), if you take 3 Patrols yes over all its more troops but its also more tax in HQ's and less slots, especially if you want Kabal, coven, and wych, now its only 2 heavy, elite, and fast for each. Really by limiting the FoC slots the DE player is getting only 2 free CP.
When I play 2-3 Patrols I have to take 2 Wych ones b.c I want to have Hellions, Reavers, and Beasts, that means no matter what my next patrol is heavily limited or I have to add in Kabal into a Wych or Coven detachment and that Kabal units doesn't get any Obsessions so I either take my Archon and Court with obsessions or I take my Coven with Obsessions, its a hard option for me. So having +2CP feels more like a DE sneaking compensation strategy that Vect would do.
If Wrackifiers wasn't so strong or even a thing no one would notice or care that DE gets 2 more CP.
Finally other armies can do similar things too, UM can start with more, Red Scorpions gets a free LoW detachment, and many others can start with more CP too. DE just does at the cost of FoC juggling.
It's 2 free CP for just building a list. And you're complaining that it makes it hard to get everything you want?
Ultras need to spend the points for Gulliman for their extra CP (unless you're talking about something else that I don't know about). And I just checked the rules for Red Scorpions in the Compendium. Where are they getting this free LoW detachment?
Yes I am complaining b.c I've been asking GW to undo the Subfaction mess from day one, i hate it. 2CP isn't game breaking either.
TBF, CSM still have red corsairs which also pay for themselves... when we are on that front.
I don't think it's good design, a unit should be picked upon it's own merits not what it has when it get's supercharged by presumably getting shouted at like yugioh cards.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
It looks like Drukhari has one of the best transports in the game now, at least, that's why I signed when I was offered the army I would adjust the stuff that goes on top of the transports (Wracks with liquifiers) before the transport itself.
We are strong, that's why I tone down my lists until the rest of the people has it's 9th edition codexes, when things are going to change for sure. Admech lists are pretty hard for me even with their 8th edition Codex, so I guess it's going to be one of our counters.
Just wait for the rest to judge. We are not at the same level right now, and that's a bummer. I have to say though, that being a direct counter to Marines feels good.
Denegaar wrote: It looks like Drukhari has one of the best transports in the game now, at least, that's why I signed when I was offered the army I would adjust the stuff that goes on top of the transports (Wracks with liquifiers) before the transport itself.
We are strong, that's why I tone down my lists until the rest of the people has it's 9th edition codexes, when things are going to change for sure. Admech lists are pretty hard for me even with their 8th edition Codex, so I guess it's going to be one of our counters.
Just wait for the rest to judge. We are not at the same level right now, and that's a bummer. I have to say though, that being a direct counter to Marines feels good.
Just wait for orks and admech which surely will curb the DE out of the meta to make other armies viable....
that's the same argument that was brought forth by gw and whilest some missmatches are natural in a asymetrically faction system i fail to see how 76 % in general is good and dandy when the next book is a bunch of Bel akor day 1 dlc.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
