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Made in us
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 some bloke wrote:


Imperial Guard don't have female models, and they currently have no reason not to. This is an issue with representation, as we have all male models representing an army which should be mixed.
T'au have no female models, and they currently have no reason not to. This is an issue with representation, as we have all male models representing an army which should be mixed.
Space marines have no female models, but they have story reasoning why. This is not an issue with representation, as we have all male models representing an army which should be all male models.

You might not like the reasoning why. You might think it is too small a thing to matter about changing. But frankly, there are other races which already need female models, who should be dealt with first.



Neither of those other two things are true, though. They just added a sprue to the IG box that includes several female heads, and the tau infantry kits have had female heads since...whatever, 2017 or something when they got new kits? They do only have the like...three units where you'd ever be able to tell if there are female models.

I dunno how many times I have to point this out. Weve got female models in the chaos cults, female models in all the necromunda gangs that didnt originally have them, female models in the guard, female models in tau, female models in GSC...people just haven't been paying attention I guess?

Hell, even Skitarii models have two different types of radiation shielding on their New Skitarii Manufacturing Plant Areas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 14:45:23


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Female guard absolutely exist, check the new spru news.

Ta'u also have females. Shadow sun?

Space marines, again, LITERALLY have females in the fluff. What you are thinking of is a total lore ret-con in the late 80s/90s to appeal more to the male demographic.

You are advocating inclusivity which is good, but you a gatekeeping parts of the game until ALL inclusiveness is achieved, which is a silly goal post to keep shifting.

When every single race/faction combined gets even CLOSE to the level of representation that the Astartes get, we'll worry about them. But right now the 99% White male faction is in dire need of a shot in the inclusivities.


Crap, Scotsman beat me to it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/16 14:48:26


 
   
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Female guard absolutely exist, check the new spru news.


I can't find any images of this on GW's site at all. I found a few special characters, but no generic female models for either tau or guard...


I mean, if indeed there are already models representing women in the factions that it makes sense for then yeah, let's do it with marines. But perhaps GW needs to be a bit better with putting pictures up of these changes!

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Dude they literally previewed the new Cadian upgrades a couple weeks ago, I'm pretty sure they're on pre-order.
Yeah I just checked the Cadian box has been updated and is on the pre-order page.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 15:38:03


 
   
Made in us
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 Gert wrote:
Dude they literally previewed the new Cadian upgrades a couple weeks ago, I'm pretty sure they're on pre-order.
Yeah I just checked the Cadian box has been updated and is on the pre-order page.


Gert, don't try to use logic with someone clearly arguing in bad faith.
   
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 some bloke wrote:
Ergo, Space Marines don't need to be one of those "all male" factions in the first place.


I agree. But I also think that having factions which have no reason whatsoever, however arbitrary, to not have female models represented with entirely male models is a bigger issue.
Uh, they *do* have representation. It's not enough, nowhere near enough, but the factions that """according to lore""" should have women *do* have them mostly represented.

Imperial Guard don't have female models, and they currently have no reason not to. This is an issue with representation, as we have all male models representing an army which should be mixed.
New Cadian upgrade sprue has women's heads. Multiple unique women sculpts also exist, from the Catachan sergeant, to Severina Raine, and have historically had a scant handful of metal sculpts. As I said, it's nowhere near enough, but they *do* have women. Additionally, there's representation in marketing, literature and artwork depicting women guardsmen.

The models need work, but the rest isn't awful.
T'au have no female models, and they currently have no reason not to. This is an issue with representation, as we have all male models representing an army which should be mixed.
Uh, Shadowsun? At least one member of Farsight's Eight, Torchstar, is a woman, and many unhelmeted Tau are designed as "female". So, no, actually, Tau are pretty solid. Maybe could have more, but they're pretty fair. The issue is more that Tau don't get stories in general.
Space marines have no female models, but they have story reasoning why.
Actually, they kinda don't. When it was brought up *in setting* by a Fenrisian, the Space Wolf in question turned around and admitted that they had no idea why they didn't recruit women.

And, as I've said, if the story reason is complete garbage, does it not belong in the garbage? Why hold on to something that has no reason to exist?
This is not an issue with representation, as we have all male models representing an army which should be all male models.
Except it is an issue of representation, because there is no good reason for them not to exist there, and that this particular faction represents the lion's share of GW models.

But frankly, there are other races which already need female models, who should be dealt with first.
You're right - there are factions that have long needed female models. Space Marines are one of them, and the only thing preventing that is an adherence to lore which you outright state is entirely flimsy.

I put to you that Warhammer 40k needs more female models. And that Space Marines are not the best place to start with that, as they have an (albeit flimsy) piece of lore which makes them all male.
Why should we be paying attention to that flimsy bit of lore? Why is that so important?


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Dude they literally previewed the new Cadian upgrades a couple weeks ago, I'm pretty sure they're on pre-order.
Yeah I just checked the Cadian box has been updated and is on the pre-order page.


Gert, don't try to use logic with someone clearly arguing in bad faith.


Less of this snideness please. Not everyone follows the previews guys. Not everyone is aware of every new release. Christ, we've all missed stuff. That's not arguing in bad faith.

All this does is undermine your position for no reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 17:46:13


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

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Deadnight wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Dude they literally previewed the new Cadian upgrades a couple weeks ago, I'm pretty sure they're on pre-order.
Yeah I just checked the Cadian box has been updated and is on the pre-order page.


Gert, don't try to use logic with someone clearly arguing in bad faith.


Less of this snideness please. Not everyone follows the previews guys. Not everyone is aware of every new release. Christ, we've all missed stuff. That's not arguing in bad faith.

All this does is undermine your position for no reason.


Read back over the last 7 or so pages, their side's entire argument has been (Fingers in ears) "WE DON'T SEE/HEAR ANYTHING! NA NA NA NA NA NA NA!"

How many times in 40 pages do we need to cite examples of things before we have to stop knocking down improperly setup straw man arguments? Smudge, Gert, and Scotsman, have all said multiple times that we don't need inclusivity in the Guard, we need it in the games FOREFRONT faction.

The attempt to say We can't let females into the Astartes unless or until ALL factions are 100% equal, it what we call the BS of infinite Regress. They will continue to put up completely vacuous straw men until we either quit trying or we win. It's like Gay rights in the US. We can't allow Trans bathrooms until we eliminate the potential of Child molestation. As if the two are related. It's an impossible hill to climb just to put female pronouns in the fluff of a table top game's preeminent faction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 18:01:35


 
   
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TBF I didn't say no to representation in AM and other factions, I just said it was meaningless unless the flagship product of 40k was a male-only faction with the excuse of 13 words written almost two decades ago to back it up.

That being said I 100% get Fezz's position. This thread started well over a month ago and people have had to repeat the same things over and over again because people new to the thread don't read it before posting in it.
I get reading 37 pages is a lot to ask but at the same time, each new person makes the exact same argument that has already been addressed five or six times already and it's pretty tiring. some_guy could have easily found the new Cadian upgrades through Google or searching the New Releases tab on GW's website.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 18:12:12


 
   
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It's not that we don't need inclusivity in the Guard - there's still a way to go with that, in all fairness. It's just that why can't we have inclusivity in the Guard and in the Space Marines too?

The issue here is that the Guard seem to be being used as a deflection away from the larger issue at hand, that being that Space Marines are one of the biggest offenders in the whole "making people feel excluded" issue, and not tackling that by perhaps turning the whole "Space Marines have a massive market presence" to our advantage and using that to spread female inclusivity feels a little like people are trying to avoid women Space Marines for some reason.

I know that some bloke has voiced their support for women Space Marines, which I do appreciate, but I will still be addressing the larger issue stemming from this idea that women Space Marines don't need to be done because the lore says so.


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See attached. The pictured guard sprue is now going to come in every box of basic troopers.The second image is a female tau, the third is a male tau.
[Thumb - 1.png]

[Thumb - 2.png]

[Thumb - 3.png]


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I just realized something about the promo materials for Primaris. Aside from book covers about specific characters, has anyone seen any artwork about Primaris with their helmets off? I haven't bought the books, so I dunno if there is any in there, but point being: they don't even have to change the art. A female primaris would look the exact same as a male primaris with the helmet on, unless they added some poney tail or something, which literally speaking would be terrible. But they could just put out their 6-8 foot primaris cardboard cut outs and say yeah, this is Tina, the new Female primaris.
   
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New York City

I'm not convinced those are female heads...

I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
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My question would be what counts as "The Lore"? We know who decides what is and isn't canon, GW btw, and they have already said the specific passage used to justify male-only SM is outdated.
Now you could take that as outdated compared to modern morale concerns OR as in the book is outdated and should no longer be used as a source of reference.

If we look at the 9th edition SM codex, in the Creation of a SM section there is one explicitly male reference and it is in the term Gene-Sons. This does not preclude non-male aspirants just that the end result is male. Pretty cursed IMO but peeps seem to love that whole "Grimdark" aesthetic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LumenPraebeo wrote:
I'm not convinced those are female heads...

Why?
This isn't a joke I genuinely want to know why you think there aren't female heads in the new sprues.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/16 18:20:30


 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Read back over the last 7 or so pages, their side's entire argument has been (Fingers in ears) "WE DON'T SEE/HEAR ANYTHING! NA NA NA NA NA NA NA!"

How many times in 40 pages do we need to cite examples of things before we have to stop knocking down improperly setup straw man arguments? Smudge, Gert, and Scotsman, have all said multiple times that we don't need inclusivity in the Guard, we need it in the games FOREFRONT faction.

The attempt to say We can't let females into the Astartes unless or until ALL factions are 100% equal, it what we call the BS of infinite Regress. They will continue to put up completely vacuous straw men until we either quit trying or we win. It's like Gay rights in the US. We can't allow Trans bathrooms until we eliminate the potential of Child molestation. As if the two are related. It's an impossible hill to climb just to put female pronouns in the fluff of a table top game's preeminent faction.


You do realise the guy in question is for femarines, and for better female representation, right? Pretty sure I can point to plenty of his posts too.

and it's not the first time in this thread that someone who was in agreement, or partial agreement or not entirely against what youre saying was savaged by one of ye either or had their argument misconstrued for a cheap shot. Its like unless theyre 110% on board with ye and utterly undeviated from the dogma they're the enemy.

Come on, stop eating your own. Equating people like some bloke or myself with the actions of transphobes and homophobes is disgusting and completely unwarranted. You don't know me. You don't know how savagely I detest those bigots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 18:23:39


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Deadnight wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Read back over the last 7 or so pages, their side's entire argument has been (Fingers in ears) "WE DON'T SEE/HEAR ANYTHING! NA NA NA NA NA NA NA!"

How many times in 40 pages do we need to cite examples of things before we have to stop knocking down improperly setup straw man arguments? Smudge, Gert, and Scotsman, have all said multiple times that we don't need inclusivity in the Guard, we need it in the games FOREFRONT faction.

The attempt to say We can't let females into the Astartes unless or until ALL factions are 100% equal, it what we call the BS of infinite Regress. They will continue to put up completely vacuous straw men until we either quit trying or we win. It's like Gay rights in the US. We can't allow Trans bathrooms until we eliminate the potential of Child molestation. As if the two are related. It's an impossible hill to climb just to put female pronouns in the fluff of a table top game's preeminent faction.


You do realise the guy in question is for femarines, and for better female representation, right? Pretty sure I can point to plenty of his posts too.

and it's not the first time in this thread that someone who was in agreement, or partial agreement or not entirely against what youre saying was savaged by one of ye either or had their argument misconstrued for a cheap shot. Its like unless theyre 110% on board with ye and utterly undeviated from the dogma they're the enemy.

Come on, stop eating your own. Equating people like some bloke or myself with the actions of transphobes and homophobes is disgusting and completely unwarranted.


Simple question then, what is the difference between someone who thinks women are inferior to someone who thinks a trans person is inferior? Both are discrimination by gender.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 18:27:51


 
   
Made in gb
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LumenPraebeo wrote:I'm not convinced those are female heads...
Human women heads? Certainly not, but according to Tau biology/physiology, the first Tau pictured linked is for a female, yes.

Deadnight wrote:and it's not the first time in this thread that someone who was in agreement, or partial agreement or not entirely against what youre saying was savaged by one of ye either or had their argument misconstrued for a cheap shot. Its like unless theyre 110% on board with ye and utterly undeviated from the dogma they're the enemy.
Eh, I'm not denying that we're in agreement that women Astartes should be a thing. The issue is that by defending the lore excuse, they're providing that same ammunition and defence to people who might not share the same sentiments that women Astartes should be a thing.

I'm having to debunk the whole "the lore is sacred" issue because if I don't here, then it emboldens others to use that reason why they don't want women Astartes. I'm not saying that some bloke needs to be entirely in lockstep, but I am saying that I'm not going to *not* call out what I see as a fundamentally flawed logic, because I don't want other people to start using it who might not be as understanding on the issue as some bloke is.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Simple question then, what is the difference between someone who thinks women are inferior to someone who thinks a trans person is inferior? Both are discrimination by gender.


I agree. I'm a feminist. I'm also strongly pro-lgbtq.

That has nothing to do with anything either some bloke or myself have said.

And if that's what you're implying of me, I'll hit the report button and have you for breaking rule 1.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Eh, I'm not denying that we're in agreement that women Astartes should be a thing. The issue is that by defending the lore excuse, they're providing that same ammunition and defence to people who might not share the same sentiments that women Astartes should be a thing.
I'm having to debunk the whole "the lore is sacred" issue because if I don't here, then it emboldens others to use that reason why they don't want women Astartes. I'm not saying that some bloke needs to be entirely in lockstep, but I am saying that I'm not going to *not* call out what I see as a fundamentally flawed logic, because I don't want other people to start using it who might not be as understanding on the issue as some bloke is.



No. Youre tarring them with the same brush Smudge. You're so focused on this one thing you're lashing out at a lot of people that ate not your enemies. You're so focused on 'debunking, your just taking cheap shots.

Some arguments have greater merit than others. Just because they share a space, have concerns about what you want or think there are better approaches to the same goddamn goal doesn't mean they need to be dismissed out of hand because worse people are there and could use it to do bad things. If that was really the case, nothing should ever be written because some tool will always find a way to weaponise it and hurt people....


I'm of the opinion that writers should be allowed to write whatever they want regardless of peoples feelings. **** your feelings. **** my feelings. **** theirs. I'm not against the notion of this space based version of an all-boys school that is the astartes. If that's what the writers want to write, I'll respect it. If they want to change it, I'll respect it also. Their words. Their world.

If someone writes a story about Will and Ned, two straight white guys which absolutely rocks and gets super popular that's OK. Will and Ned don't nrvessarily need to have a black friend, a gay friend or a female friend in their story to legitimise them. If the characters are good, the writings sharp, it should be appreciated for what it is. It's not a worse story or a bad thing to not include a rainbow coalition of genders, colours and sexualities. And before you say anything, or deliberately misconstrue what I'm saying, or claim stating this makes me some kind of racist/mysogynist/homophobe or somehow our of touch, let me be clear about this: my favourite story (game) isn't will and need, or a clone of it; its actually a game that's based on 2 extremely strong female characters and has extremely strong lgbtw resonance. Changed my life too. 10 Internets if you guess right.

Lore is important even if it's silly. 40ks is weird in that it's wonderfully silly and over the top and in some ways it's a big joke and not meant to be taken all that seriously. Except when it is. Regardless, its just promotional material. And yes, lore can change. In some cases it should be changed. And in some cases it should never have been touched. Regardless, I'm wary of 'just change it' despite your goal being admiral. I think its a legitimate stance to be wary. They changed the tau lore when they brought in the super robot friends, I walked. They did newcrons. I was actually bitterly disappointed when what I got were quirky academics collecting battles. Never bought in. Primaris? Plenty people despise them. Femarines? Depending on how, it could be great, or tragic. A box set of those not-reivers posted earlier? I'll buy them all. headswaps like that angels of purification project? Meh. I checked it out, and fair play to them but it didn't work for me at all. Shrug.

I think more female sculpts for guard, expansion of sisters (would love to see a feral pelt-wearing squad/range, hive world scum looks and 'light' armour) beyond 'traditional nun' (plenty other ways to showcase 'real faith') that I think could be really interesting, and better promotion for not-space marine factions is an easy win and a nice change from marine saturation whilst not taking from what you want. And uncontroversial to boot. Its easier to push through to positivity easier to get everyone on board and doesn't threaten the bottom line.

After that, let's talk about femarines.

Meet me half way Smudge. Don't tar me with that brush. I'm.not your enemy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/16 19:14:19


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
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Deadnight wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Eh, I'm not denying that we're in agreement that women Astartes should be a thing. The issue is that by defending the lore excuse, they're providing that same ammunition and defence to people who might not share the same sentiments that women Astartes should be a thing.
I'm having to debunk the whole "the lore is sacred" issue because if I don't here, then it emboldens others to use that reason why they don't want women Astartes. I'm not saying that some bloke needs to be entirely in lockstep, but I am saying that I'm not going to *not* call out what I see as a fundamentally flawed logic, because I don't want other people to start using it who might not be as understanding on the issue as some bloke is.



No. Youre tarring them with the same brush Smudge. You're so focused on this one thing you're lashing out at a lot of people that ate not your enemies. You're so focused on 'debunking, your just taking cheap shots.
Alright, I'll bite - why is some bloke continuing the same thing then?

If we're "not enemies", then why continue to defend the lore?

And no, I'm not taking cheap shots, I'm pointing out rather valid faults in the arguments being made.

Some arguments have greater merit than others. Just because they share a space, have concerns about what you want or think there are better approaches to the same goddamn goal doesn't mean they need to be dismissed out of hand because worse people are there and could use it to do bad things. If that was really the case, nothing should ever be written because some tool will always find a way to weaponise it and hurt people....
Sorry, but no. I've got to disagree with that.

Regardless of if some bloke was pro- or anti-women Space Marines, the arguments that they make regarding the lore being this inviolate "it is, so it is" entity are inherently damaging to the issue at hand. If we accept that the lore ever comes before real world problems, then the whole concept of women Astartes is doomed to die in it's crib.

I would know, because I used to have that opinion, and the only thing that made that opinion change was the understanding the lore does not excuse real world issues that affect real people.


I'm of the opinion that writers should be allowed to write whatever they want regardless of peoples feelings. **** your feelings. **** my feelings. **** theirs. I'm not against the notion of this space based version of an all-boys school that is the astartes. If that's what the writers want to write, I'll respect it. If they want to change it, I'll respect it also. Their words. Their world.
And I'll criticise that world if and when real people use it as an excuse to exclude others.

If "their words" and "their world" start being used to harm people, then something's gotta give.

If someone writes a story about Will and Ned, two straight white guys which absolutely rocks and gets super popular that's OK.
You're right, that is okay. But there isn't a hobby based getting to collect your own Will and Ned, marketed as a way for you to flex your creativity, and then being told that you can't be too creative, and that you should feel bad from breaking the lore of Will and Ned.
If the characters are good, the writings sharp, it should be appreciated for what it is.
You know, I actually agree with that. If not having women Space Marines added something to the Space Marine identity, I'd support it, like I do with Custodes.

But the problem is that it doesn't add anything. And if it doesn't add anything, what would be lost by removing it?

And no, I'm not claiming you're bigoted or LGBTQ+phobic. All I am saying is that when something's causing harm, and very little good, should that not be addressed?

Lore is important even if it's silly.
Silly, yes. Utterly pointless and needlessly exclusive, to the point where it can be weaponised to exclude people? Not so important.
40ks is weird in that it's wonderfully silly and over the top and in some ways it's a big joke and not meant to be taken all that seriously. Except when it is.
Yeah, isn't that kinda the issue? That maybe it *was* just a joke - but not all jokes age well? And now people are taking that "joke" and people are getting excluded because of it?
Regardless, I'm wary of 'just change it' despite your goal being admiral. I think its a legitimate stance to be wary.
Legitimate to be wary, yes, but wariness still being means being able to look at the lore as more than "it is what it is" and say "oh, hang on, this is really a bit unnecessary, and is actually quite damaging - maybe we should change that".

Wariness applies to looking inward as well as outward.

I don't mind people like the lore. It's nice lore. There's a reason we like it. But is that reason "because women can't be Space Marines"? Really, how important *is* it?

I think more female sculpts for guard, expansion of sisters (would love to see a feral pelt-wearing squad/range, hive world scum looks and 'light' armour) beyond 'traditional nun' (plenty other ways to showcase 'real faith') that I think could be really interesting, and better promotion for not-space marine factions is an easy win and a nice change from marine saturation whilst not taking from what you want. And uncontroversial to boot. Its easier to push through to positivity easier to get everyone on board and doesn't threaten the bottom line.

After that, let's talk about femarines.
Again, such a thing is *good*, I'm not arguing with that, but it's not *enough*, and doesn't address the fundamental issue of what Space Marines are - a faction that has no real right to be exclusive, and would be the easiest one to fix.
A solution that doesn't address that issue with Space Marines isn't a solution, not in my book. Either Space Marines as a whole need reworking to *warrant* the all-male treatment (and then risk stepping on the toes of Custodes), need moving away from the whole "customisable at all costs" image GW gives them, and taking down from the spotlight (a risky financial decision), or... we add women Space Marines with a change to 13 outdated words, and a new sprue.

You mention controversy. This brings to my issue on that - why is adding women Space Marines controversial?

Meet me half way Smudge. Don't tar me with that brush. I'm.not your enemy.
I know you're not. But I'm not going to let arguments that can be used to defend what I see as indefensible go unquestioned, no matter what "side" people stand on. It's not personal.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/16 19:32:24



They/them

 
   
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Papua New Guinea

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Thats news to me. Since when?


Games Workshop have never marketed or sold female space marines. In 1988, there was an advert for "Adventurers" which features two miniatures called Female Warrior Jayne and Female Warrior Gabs. These miniatures were sold as part of the RT601 "Adventurers" blister pack. It is pure speculation that these two miniatures were actually something other than what they were advertised and sold as but, if they were supposed to be something else, that is almost certainly Sisters of Battle. On the miniatures themselves, the base tag says "sister" and there are a few other design elements that point towards this liklihood, as shown in the image below, which is a comparison between one of the miniatures and the Stephen Tappin artwork of Sister Sin, as seen in the back of the Rogue Trader rulebook near a background section talking about the Sisters of Battle.



As you can see, the miniature has the same style of powered armour, the same rebreather apparatus and the same horned skull device on the left shoulder pad.
EDIT: I suppose they both also have bare hands too, although Gabs is painted to have gloves on the official model so, eh *shrug*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 03:25:16


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I mean this whole argument is all sort of out of touch I think.

Lets say you are a complete lay person/woman who has never heard of Warhammer 40k

Google Warhammer 40k.. and you go to the 40k site

https://warhammer40000.com/

The very first thing you see is a HUGE MOVIG IMAGE MOVIE of a SOB walking towards the screen. and then the whole trailer thing happens where its all KABOOM!!!! PEW PEW PEW!! all about SOB and Marines kicking some evil Necron ass. Its only possible to tell one of the fighters character is female because she starts her pistol without helmet.

As a bystander who knows nothing about 40k, you can obviously tell that in the setting there are women. Who kick ass and wear power armour. Its very apparent these blue guys are obviously part of the same "team" - The human team.

So how does this conversation go when you walk into a GW store?

Random customer(female) - Hey I saw trailer for 40k and I'm really interested in. I was walking by and thought Id check out your shop. What can you tell me about the guys in the trailer?

GW employee: *gives run down of 40k in the fututre humanity beset from all sides blah blah . So in the trailer you saw IOM forces of Sisters of battle and Space Marines fighting of the Evil ancient necrons.

Customer A: Ohh thats cool. And they fight together?

GW Staff: yes they can do. They their own factions factions and models which you you can use to play the game but you dotn have to etc. and there are rules etc. etc. Books. etc. etc. Then goes through to briefly explain each faction.

Customer: *has a walk around the shop* Okay I will buy into faction *tyranids*(or SOB if the gender bias is as important as its made out to be I guess?) what do you recommend I start with?/ No sorry this really doesn't seem like my thing maybe some other time.

Apart from the GW predatory "you need to buy ALL THIS STUFF" targeting newbies and parents... and just a glance at the prices which would scare away most sane people.. At which point would a woman feel not represented in 40k because of marines as a new comer to 40k today? It certainly isn't the marketing. And unless they know the whole history of 40k, all the lore and all the legacy stuff. They would have no idea to the contrary.

I think a lot of you are coming at this from a very jaded veteran position and are creating problems out of something that is being addressed... Its just not addressed in the way you want it to and that's the part you don't like.

On a different tangent:

How would people react if The emperor was a woman.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 04:44:25


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


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Papua New Guinea

 Argive wrote:
I mean this whole argument is all sort of out of touch I think.


Heh, y'think?

How would people react if The emperor was a woman.


Given the Emperor's multi-mind He's lived as pretty much every conceivable type of human being going right back to the early hominids and I am sure the Emperor will have appeared as whatever kind of human you can think of when it suited His purposes. It would certainly be an interesting concept to explore; with Queen Elizabeth have become a bit of a meme about living so long, I'm surprised you don't see more jokes and fan pictures

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Leicester, UK

Female Space Marines eh? i'm not gonna read 37 pages but that aint gonna stop me wading in with a half-thought out opinion!

Well putting aside the overwhelmingly convincing and water-tight argument that girls are smelly, it seems to me that GW are damned if they do and damned if they don't - and that people would make up their own reasons and motivations for any such move. If it happens it will be be more about how they do it that I would be interested in.

In the meantime those that don't rely on being spoon-fed fluff and models will do some conversions and head-cannoneering and more power to them. I would love to fight against a half-female SM army and i'm sure if you look at the gallery on this site there is one there.

Personally, being a good catholic boy, i'm happy with the space nuns and space monks situation we have now, especially since they can fight together.

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
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U.k

 Argive wrote:
I mean this whole argument is all sort of out of touch I think.

Lets say you are a complete lay person/woman who has never heard of Warhammer 40k

Google Warhammer 40k.. and you go to the 40k site

https://warhammer40000.com/

The very first thing you see is a HUGE MOVIG IMAGE MOVIE of a SOB walking towards the screen. and then the whole trailer thing happens where its all KABOOM!!!! PEW PEW PEW!! all about SOB and Marines kicking some evil Necron ass. Its only possible to tell one of the fighters character is female because she starts her pistol without helmet.

As a bystander who knows nothing about 40k, you can obviously tell that in the setting there are women. Who kick ass and wear power armour. Its very apparent these blue guys are obviously part of the same "team" - The human team.

So how does this conversation go when you walk into a GW store?

Random customer(female) - Hey I saw trailer for 40k and I'm really interested in. I was walking by and thought Id check out your shop. What can you tell me about the guys in the trailer?

GW employee: *gives run down of 40k in the fututre humanity beset from all sides blah blah . So in the trailer you saw IOM forces of Sisters of battle and Space Marines fighting of the Evil ancient necrons.

Customer A: Ohh thats cool. And they fight together?

GW Staff: yes they can do. They their own factions factions and models which you you can use to play the game but you dotn have to etc. and there are rules etc. etc. Books. etc. etc. Then goes through to briefly explain each faction.

Customer: *has a walk around the shop* Okay I will buy into faction *tyranids*(or SOB if the gender bias is as important as its made out to be I guess?) what do you recommend I start with?/ No sorry this really doesn't seem like my thing maybe some other time.

Apart from the GW predatory "you need to buy ALL THIS STUFF" targeting newbies and parents... and just a glance at the prices which would scare away most sane people.. At which point would a woman feel not represented in 40k because of marines as a new comer to 40k today? It certainly isn't the marketing. And unless they know the whole history of 40k, all the lore and all the legacy stuff. They would have no idea to the contrary.

I think a lot of you are coming at this from a very jaded veteran position and are creating problems out of something that is being addressed... Its just not addressed in the way you want it to and that's the part you don't like.

On a different tangent:

How would people react if The emperor was a woman.


Through your male lens you see no issue with that. But that’s just your experience. Imagine the same women sees the same video, she isn’t into fetish nuns and boob armour, she still goes to a go store, male staff and male customers only. Already uncomfortable she asks about the marines when in the shop, as they take up half the shelf space and there’s a giant cardboard cut out one by the till and half the people in there are painting them, there are cool a marine armies in display and there’s a big diorama in the shop window full of marines.

The shop assistant tells her about the cool supersoldiers and all the awesome models and stories available to them. The whole spin off game set 10000 years earlier that’s pretty much marine vs marine. It all sounds great, she’s interested and excited to play, the shop assistant sets up a demo game, she looks at the models and asks, are there female marines though?….

No, men only! the guys in the shop look suspiciously on.

Why? Because it said so 30 years ago. It would ruin the lore and break the game if we had women marines!

Why? Because the lore can’t even be changed.

Really? Well no, but this bit can’t! Women can’t be marines because they aren’t tough enough, or strong enough and because men are better at Sports and war. (All reasons given in this thread).

Bye.

And if the emperor was a woman? Fine. No issue at all. I’d be perfectly happy if when reborn as the star child she was a little baby girl. ( or if they said she was a woman all a long)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 09:49:23


 
   
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I think it's much more likely that a woman walking into a gw store would be more interested in the setting that shows women and men fighting alongside eachother as equals than the setting where the trailer shows a woman fighting evil aliens, until there's an alien that's just too big and strong for her, so she goes and prays for a much bigger stronger man to show up and heroically stab the alien.

And in the game the women are in their own all-women faction, where you have to be catholic nuns while the boys can be romans, commandos, angels, vikings, monks, crusaders, mongols, dragon warriors, knights, spiky bad guys, egyptians, bezerkers, or diseased plague zombie mutants, all with their own unique dedicated model ranges and codexes.

And the women and the men don't have the same stats, actually the women are just about half as effective as the men - while in the other setting, they're the same faction and they fight in the same units.

I dunno. I dont actually have GW's numbers. I just know that locally, the 40k scene is 100% completely all dudes, and the AOS scene is basically 50-50.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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As to more female models and presentation in 40k, fine, as long as they are sold in their own box sets or sprues and only people wanting them have to pay for them. That's fine with me, if the people who want to use them pay 100% for them, fine.

Unfortunately we all know that the bloosuckers running GW will put them in with all box sets them, of course, raise prices on the sets to cover the cost of the design, the sculpting, the molds, the CEOS new porsche, etc.

maybe some people will refuse to pay the 'inclusion tax" for things they don't want and won't use.

Sure, GW can cop an attitude if you don;t like it you will not be missed. Want to see what happened the last some a company decided to ram inclusion down their customers throats and told them 'Don't like it? Don't play the game!"

Well I just happen to have a little example of that right here.

https://youtu.be/-DCnY2Osaec

Now GW players do have more than an either/or solution to the problem of being hit with an inclusion tax which will be part of price hikes of new female guard parts are added. Recasts and 3d printers. Yes, we do have other options and gw knows it.

I say no female space marines, Sobs are close enough and the lore says the marines have to be male. I am tired of small but very vocal groups bullying everyone into bowing to their views and i think that 40k should refuse to let a tiny group bully us all into changing the game to include female marines. Just. Say. No.

Female guard, sure. WW2 proved women can fight and make great snipers, just ask the people at stalingrad.

To be honest most combat pilots in the imperium should be female, women are better able to resist g stress and GLOC than men, that's a proven fact.

But female marines, no. Just for once someone needs to stand up to these bullies and refuses to back down. Don't let them bully us into submission.

So i'm fine with female guard, female elite forces, etc, as long as the majority of us aren't hit with an inclusion tax to pay for them. Female marines? No. Period. End of discussion.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 15:42:06


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In My Lab

So how much do you think an upgrade sprue of female heads and changing half the unhelmeted heads in future Marine releases to female would cost? Ballpark it for me.

Also, "I'm fine with representation as long as it doesn't cost ME anything!" is not a good attitude to have.

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 the_scotsman wrote:
I think it's much more likely that a woman walking into a gw store would be more interested in the setting that shows women and men fighting alongside eachother as equals than the setting where the trailer shows a woman fighting evil aliens, until there's an alien that's just too big and strong for her, so she goes and prays for a much bigger stronger man to show up and heroically stab the alien.

And in the game the women are in their own all-women faction, where you have to be catholic nuns while the boys can be romans, commandos, angels, vikings, monks, crusaders, mongols, dragon warriors, knights, spiky bad guys, egyptians, bezerkers, or diseased plague zombie mutants, all with their own unique dedicated model ranges and codexes.

And the women and the men don't have the same stats, actually the women are just about half as effective as the men - while in the other setting, they're the same faction and they fight in the same units.

I dunno. I dont actually have GW's numbers. I just know that locally, the 40k scene is 100% completely all dudes, and the AOS scene is basically 50-50.


I wanted to add something to the discussion, but this pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

Space Marines are inherently asexual in nature. They've been so extremely modified as to make their gender irrelevant. There's no real reason they shouldn't be coming from any worthy candidate, regardless of gender.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 JNAProductions wrote:
So how much do you think an upgrade sprue of female heads and changing half the unhelmeted heads in future Marine releases to female would cost? Ballpark it for me.

Also, "I'm fine with representation as long as it doesn't cost ME anything!" is not a good attitude to have.


SIGH, How much it costs in actuality is irrelevant. GW will use it as an excuse to raise prices. Experts on plastic model making have pointed out that GWs prices are vastly inflated beyond a reasonable profit margin. The amount it would cost vs what gw would charge for doing it would be excessive.


As to your other point, where i live i'm taxed to pay for a local airport i'm not allowed to use, only businesses get to use it. They wanted it, i pay for it. Yeah, I'm not interested in paying for something else i don't want or use.

Buy hey, maybe the 3d printer crowd will model female guard and such, and make the files available. GW wouldn't dare ban those from games for feat of triggering the mandatory inclusion crowd. And that would be perfect.

GW claims making new female models would mean a price hike, and that most players refuse to pay it. The mandatory inclusion crowd calls us nasty names, we laugh at them, the third party makes the inclusive bits and only people who want them pay for them. Perfect solution AFAIC.

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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In My Lab

 Matt Swain wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So how much do you think an upgrade sprue of female heads and changing half the unhelmeted heads in future Marine releases to female would cost? Ballpark it for me.

Also, "I'm fine with representation as long as it doesn't cost ME anything!" is not a good attitude to have.


SIGH, How much it costs in actuality is irrelevant. GW will use it as an excuse to raise prices. Experts on plastic model making have pointed out that GWs prices are vastly inflated beyond a reasonable profit margin. The amount it would cost vs what gw would charge for doing it would be excessive.


As to your other point, where i live i'm taxed to pay for a local airport i'm not allowed to use, only businesses get to use it. They wanted it, i pay for it. Yeah, I'm not interested in paying for something else i don't want or use.

Buy hey, maybe the 3d printer crowd will model female guard and such, and make the files available. GW wouldn't dare ban those from games for feat of triggering the mandatory inclusion crowd. And that would be perfect.

GW claims making new female models would mean a price hike, and that most players refuse to pay it. The mandatory inclusion crowd calls us nasty names, we laugh at them, the third party makes the inclusive bits and only people who want them pay for them. Perfect solution AFAIC.
Except for, you know, the death threats and other abuse anyone who dares make women Marines get.

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