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 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?

What a meme argument. You are aware that both Disney and games workshop are making more money today than at any other point in the history of their companies right?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
If your CSM army also features 2 squads of Obliterators, you might be taking a Dakkapred to fill out Heavy Support. 2 outstanding units plus one good enough unit - which may be there completely for the purpose of distraction - is not a bad play.

What if your opponent is actually skilled and doesn't fall for your distraction unit and instead focuses on their objectives and units that threaten those plans?

Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.

If all the Predator variants dropped by 20 points they'd probably be alright. A Predator Destructor with 2 heavy bolters would be 150 points. 10 points less than the Castigator, sure the Castigator still gets more shots, an extra heavy bolter, and that 6++ but those saved points can almost get you a free Tech Marine.

Same goes for the Predator Annihilator with 2 lascannons, that'd be 150 points as well. 15 points cheaper than the Castigator with the battle cannon, much more reliable shooting too. A reliable source of 4 shots compared to D6, sure the Castigator could use a miracle dice but that's a limited resource.

Another thing Marines could probably get is to bring back the old Self-Repair rule for all of their Rhino based vehicles. Just make it a regain 1 wound at the start of every command phase, not a huge buff but it's something.

Seabass wrote:
Then they get picked on by a D3 autocannon with 2D3 shots a turn plus the HB sponsons, which are a lot better now?

What is this supposed to be bringing to your list that can't be better accomplished by another unit? What are the targets in the meta that you'd expect these 8-12 mid-strength shots to deal with?

I don't think you are going to revolutionize the meta with it, but the weapons on a predator aren't its problem.

I disagree. We're talking about a 160 point, minimum, platform that takes an average of 5 wounds off of a Raider, which needs a high roll to kill 2 DA Terminators, and which doesn't push the pace in terms of helping you score points.

You'd only be taking it for its damage output and it just doesn't deal that much damage.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
If your CSM army also features 2 squads of Obliterators, you might be taking a Dakkapred to fill out Heavy Support. 2 outstanding units plus one good enough unit - which may be there completely for the purpose of distraction - is not a bad play.

What if your opponent is actually skilled and doesn't fall for your distraction unit and instead focuses on their objectives and units that threaten those plans?

Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.

It's pretty safely ignored.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.

See above. They don't actually accomplish that much even if left to free fire all game and that's assuming that they're on a board that gives them fire lanes to shoot at anything.

Even then, you don't literally ignore them for an entire game, you just don't make them a priority until you've dealt with the actual threats your opponent has brought to the table. These 'distraction units' are really a trap for bad players, skilled players won't worry about them and will probably be happy you've decided to waste points on them instead of a unit that actually impacts that game meaningfully.

Wasn't there a time where predator kill shot was a viable thing to run ?
It was s a bit gimmicky and really big alpha swing though..

Not sure if preds have been good since I started playing.

If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?

What a meme argument. You are aware that both Disney and games workshop are making more money today than at any other point in the history of their companies right?

I'm guessing by context that the original poster mean that, creatively Disney is running on fumes. Which makes sense, as they seem to have stopped doing anything original themselves and are just relying on existing IP's and nostalgia and not even properly capitalizing on those, just going through the motions on what they think will make them the most money and getting their hands on as many existing, successful IP's as money will let them.

While I can't say the same argument can be made of GW, I do think that there might be a point if we just look at 40k.

bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.

It's not just damage output. It's durability.

Tanks don't have any in 8th/9th. Monsters don't either.

Vehicles just need to have like double their current wounds or something. Then they would require actual effort to kill.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Vehicles just need to have like double their current wounds or something. Then they would require actual effort to kill.

Maybe not that much, but yes, agreed. Vehicles do need more wounds. I'd do something like:

Space Marines:
- Anything on a Rhino hull gets Self-Repair: Regains 1 wound every Command Phase.
- All Primaris Tanks (Impulsor, Gladiator, Repulsor) can purchase Shield Domes.
- Sicarans, and Land Raiders get -1 damage.



Imperial Guard:
- Anything on a Leman Russ (as well as any tank larger than a Leman Russ, Malcador, Macharius, or Baneblade) hull should get a 2+ save against Ranged attacks (3+ save in Engagement range). This represents the old front armour 14, which made the Russ as durable as a Land Raider while also making it vulnerable in close combat.



Another thing we could do to buff vehicle durability is levels of vehicles by adding keywords. Such as:
- Light Vehicle: Anything up to 10 wounds.
- Medium Vehicle: 11 - 15 wounds.
- Heavy vehicle: 16 wounds or more.

Each of these would have some relationship with a level of AP.
- Light vehicles: No effect.
- Medium vehicles: Ignore AP-1. That way things like mass heavy bolter or autocannon fire will be less of an impact. You would actually have to bring missile launchers to do something.
- Heavy vehicles: Ignore AP-2. So you would need things like lascannons or meltas to kill them reliably.

I mean in an age of most heavy infantry being 3 wounds theres no place for 10-12 wound medium vehicles specially when having 3-3-3 wounds is much better than a single 10 wound model. Has been a (good, in my eyes), stat creep for all infantry and bikes in this game. But vehicles have been left out. Maybe in 10th it will be their turn, idk.

 Galas wrote:
I mean in an age of most heavy infantry being 3 wounds theres no place for 10-12 wound medium vehicles specially when having 3-3-3 wounds is much better than a single 10 wound model. Has been a (good, in my eyes), stat creep for all infantry and bikes in this game. But vehicles have been left out. Maybe in 10th it will be their turn, idk.

I completely agree. 6-10 wounds on light/medium vehicles made sense if most of the infantries were 1W. Now they need a re-think in that sense. Or specific rules to severely reduce the damage taken. Or maybe powerful weapons should cripple the units they target if they kill one model: one 3W dude dies and the other two can only fire on 6s and/or can't charge next turn.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.

See above. They don't actually accomplish that much even if left to free fire all game and that's assuming that they're on a board that gives them fire lanes to shoot at anything.

The meta must have really changed.

A T7 / 11 wound unit with 6 S5 AP -1 / 2D6 S7 AP-1 shots used to be something skilled players don't ignore.

And every unit needs a "fire lane." Is there a 9th ed rule that makes that harder for Predators?

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Even then, you don't literally ignore them for an entire game, you just don't make them a priority until you've dealt with the actual threats your opponent has brought to the table. These 'distraction units' are really a trap for bad players, skilled players won't worry about them and will probably be happy you've decided to waste points on them instead of a unit that actually impacts that game meaningfully.

Oh, you didn't mean what you said before. My bad.

Your explanation of target priority clears up so many mysteries about 40k, I really appreciate you for spelling out such a baffling concept. Always thought opponents just aimed at whatever looked scariest.

Now tell me the CSM unit with better stats for ~130 points. Assume I'm maxed out on troop choices.

bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.

Just have it be D6 with minimum 3 Damage and you've fixed the weapon, not everything needs to be 3+D3 damage

Is there a 9th ed rule that makes that harder for Predators?

Mass use of LoS blocking terrain, and lack of fly or ignore LoS on the predator.

bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.

You know what, you're right, it's been way too long since imperial weaponry saw a statline pass - after all, it's not like any other factions are waiting on any kind of catchup. Tyranid, Eldar, Tau, and Ork weapon lineups feel really really great currently compared to the newly updated imperial weapons like multimeltas and heavy bolters.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.

See above. They don't actually accomplish that much even if left to free fire all game and that's assuming that they're on a board that gives them fire lanes to shoot at anything.

The meta must have really changed.

A T7 / 11 wound unit with 6 S5 AP -1 / 2D6 S7 AP-1 shots used to be something skilled players don't ignore.

And every unit needs a "fire lane." Is there a 9th ed rule that makes that harder for Predators?

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Even then, you don't literally ignore them for an entire game, you just don't make them a priority until you've dealt with the actual threats your opponent has brought to the table. These 'distraction units' are really a trap for bad players, skilled players won't worry about them and will probably be happy you've decided to waste points on them instead of a unit that actually impacts that game meaningfully.

Oh, you didn't mean what you said before. My bad.

Your explanation of target priority clears up so many mysteries about 40k, I really appreciate you for spelling out such a baffling concept. Always thought opponents just aimed at whatever looked scariest.

Now tell me the CSM unit with better stats for ~130 points. Assume I'm maxed out on troop choices.

Venom Crawler(or whetever it's called. Spooider)

Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.

The advantages the Castigator has.
Access to miracle dice, 1 more sponson weapon, More main weapon shots, Main weapon has anti-armor and infantry profiles, and basically the same price.

So my suggestion to remedy this is

Predator Tank (110 Points)
M 12" WS 6+ BS 3+ S 6 T 7 W 12 A * LD8 Save 3+
Degrades M/BS/A at 6/3

The Predator is armed with a Predator Autocannon
The Predator can replace its Predator Autocannon with a Predator Lascannon for +20 Points

The Predator can add 2 sponson heavy Bolters for +10 points, Or two sponson Lascannons for +20 Points
The Predator can add a Hunter-Killer Missile for +5 pts
The Predator can add a Storm Bolter for +5 pts

Predator Autocannon
Heavy 6 STR 7, AP-1, 3 Damage
Predator Lascannon
Heavy 2 STR 9, AP-3, d3+3 Damage

No updates to the Sponson Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Hunter-Killer missile, or Storm Bolter.


New Special Rule

Killshot - The predator is a master of maneuvering to put concentrated firepower on priority targets. If a Predator Tank targets all of its weapons on a single target, it gains +1 to wound against that target for the shooting phase.

Chaos preds could get access to some other CSM AC's, F.e. what speaks against a twin Hades AC pred?
Indeed why not give it the larger plas guns from the daemonengine?

 the_scotsman wrote:

bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.

You know what, you're right, it's been way too long since imperial weaponry saw a statline pass - after all, it's not like any other factions are waiting on any kind of catchup. Tyranid, Eldar, Tau, and Ork weapon lineups feel really really great currently compared to the newly updated imperial weapons like multimeltas and heavy bolters.

You are aware that lascannons are used by other factions besides Imperials, right? And that they're the primary source of ranged AT for those factions, because they don't have widely available access to multi-meltas?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Chaos preds could get access to some other CSM AC's, F.e. what speaks against a twin Hades AC pred?
Indeed why not give it the larger plas guns from the daemonengine?

Or let them mount Laser Destroyers. Or Volkites.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.

You know what, you're right, it's been way too long since imperial weaponry saw a statline pass - after all, it's not like any other factions are waiting on any kind of catchup. Tyranid, Eldar, Tau, and Ork weapon lineups feel really really great currently compared to the newly updated imperial weapons like multimeltas and heavy bolters.

You are aware that lascannons are used by other factions besides Imperials, right? And that they're the primary source of ranged AT for those factions, because they don't have widely available access to multi-meltas?

Listen, it's not allowed to even TALK about any problems with the game's most popular faction until every other faction has had. . . something. . . done to it.

(listen I don't disagree some other factions need more love first, but if he wants to talk about them he should make a thread about them instead of crapping on a thread about Predators)

Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.

The VC is 110 at present. It moves slower, WS/BS of 4, has one gun that does half the shots with a decreasing strength and DD3 damage instead of flat 3 as well as 1 less wound. It damn well better have an invuln, because it has to close distance and be in more danger to make the most of it.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Chaos preds could get access to some other CSM AC's, F.e. what speaks against a twin Hades AC pred?
Indeed why not give it the larger plas guns from the daemonengine?

we used to have access to the 30k predator loadouts but it got legend'd. Its a shame because it reflected perfectly the difference between loyalists and traitors.

Conversion beam
Infernus cannon
Magna-melta
Plasma destroyer

were all legal turret weapons with a choice of Heavy Bolter/Heavy flamers / lascannons as sponsons.

made me super sad to see it go. (At least i didnt buy the models only to get shafter with legends)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.

The VC is 110 at present. It moves slower, WS/BS of 4, has one gun that does half the shots with a decreasing strength and DD3 damage instead of flat 3 as well as 1 less wound. It damn well better have an invuln, because it has to close distance and be in more danger to make the most of it.

realistically, if you're taking venomcrawlers, you're bringing a disco lord with them, bringing them to BS/WS 3+

 the_scotsman wrote:

bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.

You know what, you're right, it's been way too long since imperial weaponry saw a statline pass - after all, it's not like any other factions are waiting on any kind of catchup. Tyranid, Eldar, Tau, and Ork weapon lineups feel really really great currently compared to the newly updated imperial weapons like multimeltas and heavy bolters.

Admech has d3 +3 lascannons. If they predator had that it would be pretty good.

 iGuy91 wrote:
The advantages the Castigator has.
Access to miracle dice, 1 more sponson weapon, More main weapon shots, Main weapon has anti-armor and infantry profiles, and basically the same price.

So my suggestion to remedy this is

Predator Tank (110 Points)
M 12" WS 6+ BS 3+ S 6 T 7 W 12 A * LD8 Save 3+
Degrades M/BS/A at 6/3

The Predator is armed with a Predator Autocannon
The Predator can replace its Predator Autocannon with a Predator Lascannon for +20 Points

The Predator can add 2 sponson heavy Bolters for +10 points, Or two sponson Lascannons for +20 Points
The Predator can add a Hunter-Killer Missile for +5 pts
The Predator can add a Storm Bolter for +5 pts

Predator Autocannon
Heavy 6 STR 7, AP-1, 3 Damage
Predator Lascannon
Heavy 2 STR 9, AP-3, d3+3 Damage

No updates to the Sponson Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Hunter-Killer missile, or Storm Bolter.


New Special Rule

Killshot - The predator is a master of maneuvering to put concentrated firepower on priority targets. If a Predator Tank targets all of its weapons on a single target, it gains +1 to wound against that target for the shooting phase.

Happily ignoring all the extra buffs you gave the predator, i just want to highlight the predator auto-cannon by itself 110pts for 6 S7 Ap-1 3dmg shots. Averages 4 hits, and against T7 2 wounds, against a 3+ save thats 3dmg.

For 110...hell, for 160pts I can take 8 Lootas, thats on average 16 shots, 6.2 hits, 3.1 wounds for 1.5 unsaved wounds and...3dmg on average. Don't worry though, those 8 lootas are significantly more durable with their T4 6+ saves.

I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why. A few additions ago a predator tank came standard with a single Auto-cannon, not a 2D3 shot or whatever the hell it is now. Heavy bolters are now 2dmg, Meltas are D6+2, melta rifles are D6+4 etc etc etc. yeah, lets keep buffing weapons and than complain that vehicles don't survive very long.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
realistically, if you're taking venomcrawlers, you're bringing a disco lord with them, bringing them to BS/WS 3+

Yea, though that then forces you into multiple daemon engines to make it worth it since he's so expensive on top of him being a huge target you'd probably want two. And at that point you've drastically limited how your army can function.

I do imagine they're going to reconfigure him given that DG engines went to WS/BS3.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Chaos preds could get access to some other CSM AC's, F.e. what speaks against a twin Hades AC pred?
Indeed why not give it the larger plas guns from the daemonengine?

we used to have access to the 30k predator loadouts but it got legend'd. Its a shame because it reflected perfectly the difference between loyalists and traitors.

Conversion beam
Infernus cannon
Magna-melta
Plasma destroyer

were all legal turret weapons with a choice of Heavy Bolter/Heavy flamers / lascannons as sponsons.

made me super sad to see it go. (At least i didnt buy the models only to get shafter with legends)

Now, now. We can't be having the veterans of the Horus Heresy using more Heresy era units than the thin bloods who've since switched to using Cawl tech. That would just be unfair. And totally un-thematic.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.

The VC is 110 at present. It moves slower, WS/BS of 4, has one gun that does half the shots with a decreasing strength and DD3 damage instead of flat 3 as well as 1 less wound. It damn well better have an invuln, because it has to close distance and be in more danger to make the most of it.

It's also damned ugly. And doesn't fit in with Legions that don't go in for daemonic mumbo-jumbo.