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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Players have this habit of drastically overvaluing the importance of having a competitive list.
Chill down, this isn't 7th.
If the other player is better than you, you will lose the game. Don't blame your list/faction.
Lists matter only in those few cases where you meet someone about as skilled as you, or if you bring a truly bad list against a truly top tier one (barring exceptional cases like pre nerf Drukhari or IH 2.0)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/25 10:10:24


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Karol wrote:
No it isn't . I liked how termintors look, and don't like power armoured units. in 8th terminators were in every way worse then power armoured troops. Cost, resililance, melee and shoting efficiency, even the few stratagems we had worked better for strikes then termintors. So no wonder people were buying strikes, because termintors were horrible, in an already not good army. PA waltzs in, and for a short time, you can play GK well, in US or else where, as long as you have the rules for buildings ITC had. and the whole army revolves around 10 paladins sitting in a building outside of LoS shoting, while not being able to be shot back. The rest of the army was still strikes. 9th comes around, GK are still bad, so no meta chasing can be spoken about. And suddenly falchions are horrible, when before they were the only sensible options, and strikes focused armies are worse then terminator armoured. So in order for to make the army work, an army which isn't good in 9th either, you practically have to rebuy large chunks of it, and replace all the basic weapons on each model, in an edition where unpainted=10VPs. So no I don't think it is the case of a meta chaser. Specially when the articles writen by GW on the GW owned sites, were telling knight, custodes and GK to run the loyal 32. And out of those 3, one was good in 8th, and okey is good in 9th.

This is meta chasing. Your army didn't change at all. It still got the rules from 8th. Some random dude at your store or on the internet said that against the current tournament dominant armies Swords or Halberds are the mathematically best options now. Which is true, but Falchions, Swords and Halberds are so close together in performance that it is crazy to feel the need that you have to replace large chunks of the army to stay competitive. So you have Falchions now, rebuy your army to make Swords and in three months for whatever reason Halberds are the best. Gonny buy the army a third time before you realise it isn't worth it? I mean at some point you are going to have so much redundancy, that you can field everything multiple times and then I have to concede my point Against a sensible opponent you might always play the "my whole army got Swords instead of the modelled Falchions this game, hope you don't mind" card as well.


Okey, but what are you suppose to do when you have two options , there are no other stand ins, and the other is superior and the other is not just worse, but actually bad, in every way? Play with a terminator army all through out 8th ed? Because I can tell you that was not fun. I have old models, so no falchions problem, but for everyone else playing GK they had to remove them from every model that wasn't an NDK, character, or a hammer bearer. Can they ignore the efficiency and just stick to the falchions? Not really, not in an elite army struggling with points, being forced to pay 4 pts per each falchion armed model and getting practically nothing out of it.

And I use GK as an example, because I know the army. I am sure other people playing other armies have the same problems, specially when they armies are weak and don't have a powerful core that can carry some less optimal option. This is not a case of chasing the meta for those armies. It is a case of having some fun or losing every game, before they even start.

The whole GK codex only got two options? Didn't realise that. I must have imagined all those 34 datasheets looking at me in Battlescribe.
Skew your army with one unit, feel the burn once the balance changes. It is as simple as that.

I hope there aren't too many people out there who are spamming Vanguard Vets with Shield and Claws right now, or stocking up on at least three Volkite Contemptors.

Again: Against a sensible opponent you might always play the "my whole army got Swords instead of the modelled Falchions this game, hope you don't mind" card. But then again, against a sensible opponent you can TALK before the game if you feel your army is struggling as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 10:42:24


   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






This is getting off topic pretty badly

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Coastal Bliss in the Shadow of Sizewell





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

I've no idea, but I will admit I am looking forward to it with my Boyz.

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




This is meta chasing. Your army didn't change at all. It still got the rules from 8th. Against a sensible opponent you might always play the "my whole army got Swords instead of the modelled Falchions this game, hope you don't mind" card as well.


My didn't, well it kind of a did suddenly terminators were better then strikes. But GK are still a bad army. A guy who I knew had a more drastic version of this happen to him. over night he turned from, dude everyone laughs at for playing a weak army, to you should never play IH, because they are breaking the game. Also falchions are not even close in performance to other weapons, unless you are in those rare places that don't use points to play. 4pts per model, when you are already paying 20+/40+pts per model is huge difference.

Also I like your life style. 3 months and an army is rebought. If I had money like that, I wouldn't even be playing w40k probably, I would start to save to buy a car in a few years or something. It takes me 4 months to save up enough money to buy the next CA, and that is assuming I don't have to buy a codex or a PA book in the mean time . I also don't think people should buy thousand of points of models they never will use, just in case that maybe they will be that one in 10 or 20 guy who does not quit after an edition of warhammer, and then in another 2-3 editions the stuff that they bought becomes good again, and that in the mean time GW didn't intreduce something like primaris or replace their entire model line. Your type of argument must have worked really well for all those people that bought thousands of points of WFB armies, thinking that in year or two GW "has to" make their army book good. From what I see GW doesn't have to do a darn thing. And are content with armies being bad for multiple editions, only to remove them or phase them out later on.

And the "sensible" opponent argument is just bizzar. The game is WYSIWYG. Unless the opponent is your friend, he is not going to be okey with it. And why should he be, even if he is one.



a_typical_hero 799075 11157857 wrote:
The whole GK codex only got two options? Didn't realise that. I must have imagined all those 34 datasheets looking at me in Battlescribe.
Skew your army with one unit, feel the burn once the balance changes. It is as simple as that.

I hope there aren't too many people out there who are spamming Vanguard Vets with Shield and Claws right now, or stocking up on at least three Volkite Contemptors.

Again: Against a sensible opponent you might always play the "my whole army got Swords instead of the modelled Falchions this game, hope you don't mind" card. But then again, against a sensible opponent you can TALK before the game if you feel your army is struggling as well.

For troop and infantry options of course. There are two, but in reality both 8th and 9th practicaly has one, and even that one is bad, because you are paying 2W marine prices for models with 1W. I don't understand the Venguard Vet or Contemptors examples. Neither can be taken by GK, and armies that can take them very much have options to replace them with. There is the primaris plasma dread, if someone doesn't want to buy recasts . And Vanvets here were run instead of blade guard since the start of 8th. Mostly because there were problems in getting the models. Same with attack bikes, when people in US and UK were spaming the new melta gravis suits, people here were using MM attack bikes. Both options are valid, some are better then other. And that is the main difference between some armies and other. you can have 200 datasheets for your army, but if only 3 are worth taking, then you don't really have an option to run something else. Heck GK players run servitor , because there are no other back line scoring units to take in the price range and 5 strikes cost too much. And the my army is swords argument doesn't work when WYSIWYG is part of the game. And you will find little sympathy on the other side of the table, unless you are in that are situation where you play a GK on GK mirror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Players have this habit of drastically overvaluing the importance of having a competitive list.
Chill down, this isn't 7th.
If the other player is better than you, you will lose the game. Don't blame your list/faction.
Lists matter only in those few cases where you meet someone about as skilled as you, or if you bring a truly bad list against a truly top tier one (barring exceptional cases like pre nerf Drukhari or IH 2.0)


Suprise, suprise, people tend to play good armies, and those that have losing armies tend to not stick around for more then an edition. So how does that really work? Plus in store games most people are, more or less on the same level. And not everyone likes to hear that if they want to have a chance to win against army X, they need to get first turn, have good rolls surviving their opponents turn 2, and then have good rolls with their counter attacks. If those 3 don't happen, and the place they play at doesn't have some bizzar terrain set, the result is more or less fixed. Specially if the army they play isn't painted.

I would love to hear the explanation how a person with a regular army beats a 10VP disadvanted going second vs something like DE or Harlequins or SoB.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/25 13:51:43


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






The game is WYSIWYG

There's no rule for that in the modern editions. As long as you have a model that represents the datasheet, it's fine.
By the rules, a Grey Knight with 2 falchions is the model that represents a Strike Squad datasheet, so can represent any valid loadout of any Strike Squad member. You could point at the model and say "this guy is my model representing the Strike Squad datasheet, he is equipped with a psycannon" and that is 100% by the rules.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Every single day im grateful for my group that just gives negative gaks about meta chasing in any way.

Basically everybody just chose to continue using pure monofaction lists during the entirety of the "soup edition" of 8th, not one single person bought a castellan during the castellan meta. Literally the only balance shift bad enough to actually hurt the group was the 2.0 marinedex because all the marine fans were suckers for the cool unique rules for their particular beloved chapter, so everybody not playing marines got frustrated and left after a few weeks of 100% win rate marine doninance.

When you lose versus an army, feeling like you never had any chance, and you can walk around the room and see not one single person playing even came close to scratching their marine opponent on 6-7 odd tables, thats an indicator that it's time to take a break or limit your opponents to only other non-marines for a while.

Thankfully people have mostly come back at this point, post-quarantine were nearly back up to pre-2.0 numbers.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:
Yes, GW tends to buff underperforming units and nerf overperforming units. You can criticise whether their efforts get the game closer to "balance" - but I don't think its that surprising they do this.

I think its clear GW does recognise the power of larger squads sometimes. Equally however its clear there isn't one central architect for 40k rules so this recognition (and many others) appears to come and go.


Sure...that is why they nerfed the ork stratagem "mob up" to only impact boyz instead of what it was really used for, lootas.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

And the "sensible" opponent argument is just bizzar. The game is WYSIWYG. Unless the opponent is your friend, he is not going to be okey with it. And why should he be, even if he is one.


You and I must be playing in [i]very[i] different environments, because in my area pretty much every opponent I've ever faced has been more than reasonable and sensible, and nobody would think twice at a "Hey these guys with lascannons are all actually missile launchers today, hope that's ok."
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Karol wrote:
The game is WYSIWYG.


Out of interest, am I the only one who couldn't give a rat's arse whether my opponent's army is WYSIWYG or not?

Even in practical terms, I rarely find WYSIWYG to be particularly helpful. It's not uncommon for a pre-game conversation with my opponent to be along these lines:

Me - 'So what's everything armed with?'

Him - 'It's all WYSIWYG.'

Me - 'Okay . . . so what's everything armed with?'

This isn't me being obtuse, this is me just not knowing what a lot of the weapons in 40k look like. I have no clue what a Tau Fusion Gun looks like or how it differs from a Tau Plasma Rifle. I know most of the old imperial weapons but it it's Primaris then it could be anything, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't think I could recognise even a single piece of Admech gear.

And this is assuming I have time to scrutinise each miniature. When they're clumped together on the opposite side of the table, I'm lucky if I can tell the guns from the swords.

Anyone else have this issue or am I just really dense?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






I don't think you are alone. I haven't played so far, but I would definitly feel the same regarding identifying enemy weapons. And also would not mind things like "these missile launchers are lascannons today". Few people have so much money that they can buy and build every option and I assume everyone likes to change the army he pilots now and then.

As long as things are kept simple enough and are not purposely misleading, I don't see a problem.

~6550 build and painted
819 build and painted
830 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






One of my friends that I play with uses armless Cadians as whatever flavor of summoned daemon they need for Horus Heresy, or Tzaangors for Thousand Sons, or Heresy Contemptors as Daemon Princes or Heresy era automata...
Not sure if I've ever played a WYSIWYG game with him, except maybe drunkenly at a convention at 1am where he was in an event that required painted + WYSIWYG.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 vipoid wrote:
Karol wrote:
The game is WYSIWYG.


Out of interest, am I the only one who couldn't give a rat's arse whether my opponent's army is WYSIWYG or not?

Even in practical terms, I rarely find WYSIWYG to be particularly helpful. It's not uncommon for a pre-game conversation with my opponent to be along these lines:

Me - 'So what's everything armed with?'

Him - 'It's all WYSIWYG.'

Me - 'Okay . . . so what's everything armed with?'

This isn't me being obtuse, this is me just not knowing what a lot of the weapons in 40k look like. I have no clue what a Tau Fusion Gun looks like or how it differs from a Tau Plasma Rifle. I know most of the old imperial weapons but it it's Primaris then it could be anything, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't think I could recognise even a single piece of Admech gear.

And this is assuming I have time to scrutinise each miniature. When they're clumped together on the opposite side of the table, I'm lucky if I can tell the guns from the swords.

Anyone else have this issue or am I just really dense?


Nope, same here. I can somehow tell for eldar, CSM and maybe IG, since they are very easy to identify and don't have many different options. Outside of that? I have no fethin' clue what most of the ad mech, drukhari or GSC weapons look like, if there is any difference between options at all (rapid fire/assault/heavy primaris weapons).

It's the same the other way around for my orks. "What's that buggy?" "A kustom boosta-blasta." "Cool. What does it do?" "It has a rivet cannon, four burna exhausts, grot blaster, stikk bomb and a spiked ram." "Cool. What does it do?" "Assault 6 autocannon, four burnas and does mortal wounds when charging." "What's a burna?"

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 vipoid wrote:
Karol wrote:
The game is WYSIWYG.


Out of interest, am I the only one who couldn't give a rat's arse whether my opponent's army is WYSIWYG or not?

Even in practical terms, I rarely find WYSIWYG to be particularly helpful. It's not uncommon for a pre-game conversation with my opponent to be along these lines:

Me - 'So what's everything armed with?'

Him - 'It's all WYSIWYG.'

Me - 'Okay . . . so what's everything armed with?'

This isn't me being obtuse, this is me just not knowing what a lot of the weapons in 40k look like. I have no clue what a Tau Fusion Gun looks like or how it differs from a Tau Plasma Rifle. I know most of the old imperial weapons but it it's Primaris then it could be anything, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't think I could recognise even a single piece of Admech gear.

And this is assuming I have time to scrutinise each miniature. When they're clumped together on the opposite side of the table, I'm lucky if I can tell the guns from the swords.

Anyone else have this issue or am I just really dense?

Nope - no one is that dense. Knowing what weapons look like is not a requisite to play the game.

It is only WAAC people that care about this nonsense anyways.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




There's no official rule on WYSIWYG is there?

Some tournaments enforce it, but the idea of going "no, you have a guy with a melta gun, I can't possibly let you say its a plasma gun for this game" strike me as... well, a way to not have many friends.

I guess at a certain point I'd kick off (pls treat these Ork boys as Daemonettes.. or this piece of paper as a Leman Russ) but even then as a one off I'm not sure I'd be that bothered about it.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

Tyel wrote:
There's no official rule on WYSIWYG is there?

Some tournaments enforce it, but the idea of going "no, you have a guy with a melta gun, I can't possibly let you say its a plasma gun for this game" strike me as... well, a way to not have many friends.

I guess at a certain point I'd kick off (pls treat these Ork boys as Daemonettes.. or this piece of paper as a Leman Russ) but even then as a one off I'm not sure I'd be that bothered about it.


I can understand it a little better for tournaments - and again, this is going to vary from tournament to tournament and often between organizers as well. A casual tournament is going to be different from an ITC-level event at a big gaming convention. And even then, it feels like there should be a line between "this space marine squad armed with lascannons actually represents missile launchers" vs "these Cadians are actually Ruinstorm daemons".
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The only weapon I feel works for WYSIWYG is plasma because I can easely see the blue/red/green dots in my opponent army.

Nearly everything else? Nah. Is that a missile launcher or a lass cannon? Is not like I can see without reaching to the miniature and at that point Is faster yo just ask.


What I have seen that works is consistence.

Whe all your units of one type have the same equipement. I don't care if your 6 tactical squads have each marine armed with a different weapon both meele and ranged. If you say to me "All my tacticals are 5 man with 1 plasma cannon" then thats good. The game hasnt has enough units to not remember , when they are consistent, what are they equiped with.

The same goes for those old lists that had 90-120 cultists. "They have all autoguns" is enough for me, I don't care if the models have close combat weapons or whatever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 21:14:50


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nope - no one is that dense.


Spoiler:



 Galas wrote:
The only weapon I feel works for WYSIWYG is plasma because I can easely see the blue/red/green dots in my opponent army.


I hadn't considered that but yeah that's a good point, the 'traditional' paint scheme for plasmaguns at least makes them fairly distinguishable.


 Galas wrote:

What I have seen that works is consistence.

Whe all your units of one type have the same equipement. I don't care if your 6 tactical squads have each marine armed with a different weapon both meele and ranged. If you say to me "All my tacticals are 5 man with 1 plasma cannon" then thats good. The game hasnt has enough units to not remember , when they are consistent, what are they equiped with.

The same goes for those old lists that had 90-120 cultists. "They have all autoguns" is enough for me, I don't care if the models have close combat weapons or whatever.


Yeah, this is what I find helpful as well (and what I try to do if I need to proxy stuff).

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




SemperMortis wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Yes, GW tends to buff underperforming units and nerf overperforming units. You can criticise whether their efforts get the game closer to "balance" - but I don't think its that surprising they do this.

I think its clear GW does recognise the power of larger squads sometimes. Equally however its clear there isn't one central architect for 40k rules so this recognition (and many others) appears to come and go.


Sure...that is why they nerfed the ork stratagem "mob up" to only impact boyz instead of what it was really used for, lootas.


Or nerfed GK in every FAQ through out 8th ed, to a point where it became a meme.

It is only WAAC people that care about this nonsense anyways.

Or people who had to make their army WYSIWYG. I had to rebase a large chunk of my army for them to be legal in 8th ed. A new player is going to get 0 sympathy points from me for having to do it too. And the same goes for everything else. If someone had to pay a lot to get thunder hammers or plasma for his army, they are not going accept someone saying that this bolter guy has a powerfist , because his headbutts are so strong.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Karol wrote:
Or people who had to make their army WYSIWYG. I had to rebase a large chunk of my army for them to be legal in 8th ed. A new player is going to get 0 sympathy points from me for having to do it too. And the same goes for everything else. If someone had to pay a lot to get thunder hammers or plasma for his army, they are not going accept someone saying that this bolter guy has a powerfist , because his headbutts are so strong.

You know, instead of making the hobby experience for a new player as miserable as possible for the sole reason that you had to do it, too, you should take the chance to build a less gakky community. Show them that there is a different, more relaxed way to play, far away from the cutthroat gak that the older players want to enforce.

Get a few people like that and you have your community where the game is - stay with me - fun.



   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




A single person can build nothing. And trying to change or build anything alone, at my age and with my budget is an insane thing to propose. It would sooner end with yout being ostracised and not having anyone to play, then changing anything.

And people do have and care about fun. Their own, and maybe their friends. They care gak about everyone else.

Also it would be hard for me to show new people the "relaxed" way to play when most people build their armies according to meta lists and various forums. Would be like someone coming to a yard football match and saying they, guys lets have fun. Even I know know this would be considered wierd.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

A single person by their own can not change the established system, that is correct.

I did not ask you to do it alone, though.

Not every new player is coming to the store with a netlisted 2k army.

Play smaller games with the beginners, pass on a relaxed philosophy. You don't have to play netlists against each other to have fun. You don't have to be WYSIWYG. Have a nice chatter with them.

This way you get like minded people, maybe some friends even, and can play each other. Let the gakky rest play how they want to. You don't need them anymore.

I have the joy to introduce several beginners to 40k at our local club and I make sure to be as welcoming as possible while explaining the game to them.

I'm not trying to persuade them that my preferred way of playing is the only right one, mind you. I let them subconsciously decide how they want to play.

The result is that I have a large pool of players that I enjoy playing with.

   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Regarding the importance of WYSIWYG I oppened another threat, as this is a bit derailing here...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/799319.page#11158445

~6550 build and painted
819 build and painted
830 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Edit: wrong thread. My mistake.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/26 10:55:32


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




a_typical_hero wrote:
A single person by their own can not change the established system, that is correct.

I did not ask you to do it alone, though.

Not every new player is coming to the store with a netlisted 2k army.

Play smaller games with the beginners, pass on a relaxed philosophy. You don't have to play netlists against each other to have fun. You don't have to be WYSIWYG. Have a nice chatter with them.

This way you get like minded people, maybe some friends even, and can play each other. Let the gakky rest play how they want to. You don't need them anymore.

I have the joy to introduce several beginners to 40k at our local club and I make sure to be as welcoming as possible while explaining the game to them.

I'm not trying to persuade them that my preferred way of playing is the only right one, mind you. I let them subconsciously decide how they want to play.

The result is that I have a large pool of players that I enjoy playing with.


That is litterally how people start here. They check their money and compare it to the closest thing they can buy with it, that is close to a good army. And the rare cases where people do not check that, of which I know only 2 examples in the span of 4 years now, end really bad. One was me and the other was a guy who came from Holland, and build a IG army in the middle of 8th ed, only to find out that he can't play a krieg army at the store , after he bought and painted the entire army. You would have to be 30+ with big income to even try buying in to a bad army, regular people that are teens are not going to even try to risk spending time and money on an army, which may end up bad.


I also think I would be the worse person to intreduce new players to the game, ignoring my lack of understanding of social interactions. If someone asks me what I play and if I am having fun, how will they ever trust anything I say , If the anwser is GK and generally no. I don't even know how it is to play a powerful army. Because for the short time GK were good at the end of 8th, the store I played was closed for covid.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Krieg collections are 100% legal now, they simply are standard AM armies.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Every day im so grateful that I play with a group of responsible functioning adults.

Everyone just plays with what theyve got, slowly grown collections built over years, not chasing the meta dragon for two months of easy wins, not being a dick to one another just to perpetuate a cycle of being dicks.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
Every day im so grateful that I play with a group of responsible functioning adults.

Everyone just plays with what theyve got, slowly grown collections built over years, not chasing the meta dragon for two months of easy wins, not being a dick to one another just to perpetuate a cycle of being dicks.


I feel lucky to mostly play in a tournament meta where we have a great time and play hard against one another, but nobody is WAAC or rude. Honestly, the only way I could think to make the atmosphere better would be to allow drinking at the events

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Every day im so grateful that I play with a group of responsible functioning adults.

Everyone just plays with what theyve got, slowly grown collections built over years, not chasing the meta dragon for two months of easy wins, not being a dick to one another just to perpetuate a cycle of being dicks.


I feel lucky to mostly play in a tournament meta where we have a great time and play hard against one another, but nobody is WAAC or rude. Honestly, the only way I could think to make the atmosphere better would be to allow drinking at the events


As an ork player i would not feel right playing without a (fungus?) beer around. I don't get tipsy nor does my group in general but its pretty typical to start a round with a fresh brew and after turn 2 take a quick break to grab another bottle. so basically 2 brews over 2-4 hours

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Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

If you Arnt deep in your cups by the third turn something is very wrong.

   
 
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