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Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




The big guy of the Adeptus Custodes is kind of a wimp compared to other faction leaders. He really does not live up to his lore where he is described as the deadliest (non-primarch of course) fighter in the imperium. He is basically just there to give his rerolls to hit and wound and make a strat free once per game. I think he deserves better and since we don't know when the custodes codex will get its 9th Ed iteration, I wanted to make updated rules for him, just for fun.

Statline Upgrades:
+2 wound and +1 attack.

Weapon updates:
Watchers axe
S x2; AP - 3; Dmg 4

Abilities:

Legendary commander: each adeptus custodes CORE unit within 6" of this unit may re-roll hit rolls and wound rolls of 1. In addition, at the beginning of your command phase, you may pick one adeptus custodes CORE unit within 6" of Trajann Valoris, that unit can re-roll all wound rolls when making an attack.


Martial Paragon: at the start of the fight phase pick one enemy unit within 3" of Trajann Valoris. That unit is not eligible to fight until all other units have done so.


Moment shackle:
Pick one once per game:
-The next stratagem you use costs 0 CP
-This unit can fight twice during the fight phase (yeah, NOT at the end of the phase, cause it's only once per game)
-if this unit would be destroyed, on a 2+ this unit is not destroyed and is returned to play with 3 D3 wounds remaining.

Optional: depending on whether custodes lose access to 3+ invulns. If they do and Trajann loses his 3++, I'd also give him - 1 dmg.

Lastly, since he gets more wounds, better weapon and fight last, pump is points up by 40-50.

So, how far off am I? Broken? Sensible?
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Those feel pretty broken not gonna lie. I'd rather he survive longer than do more damage. Give him a reduce all incoming melee damage by 1, and give him a max damage he can take per turn rule, ala Thrakka. I'd also give him a "retinue" ala the fluff, where he is accompanied at all times by a type of elite Warden squad.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Those feel pretty broken not gonna lie. I'd rather he survive longer than do more damage. Give him a reduce all incoming melee damage by 1, and give him a max damage he can take per turn rule, ala Thrakka. I'd also give him a "retinue" ala the fluff, where he is accompanied at all times by a type of elite Warden squad.


Can you pinpoint what exactly is broken? I am genuinely asking, because I didn't add much actually, I only gave him flat dmg on his weapon which he always should have had and updated his aura. For 40-50 points extra, I don't see how that's so broken? I mean have you seen movenn vahl?

Edit: btw giving a character, that can not be targeted, a ghazgkull or c'tan like rule is definitely broken.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 14:20:31


 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I guess my feeling of "Broken" needs some elaboration.

If you are giving him a D4 weapon that wounds anything less than a tank on 2s, 6 attacks, and fight twice, with full rerolls, and the chance to fight after death AGAIN, he would need to be a 300 point character, as he's essentially a telemon at that point. You would then need to somehow re-address the Telemon situation.

I don't see that is an effective change to address his issues. He doesn't need to be a Morden Vail. He just needs to be a buffer, and he currently does that VERY well.
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

I'd sooner see him bring additional CP if he is your Warlord, and maybe halve incoming damage a la Calgar/Abaddon.

I think his weapon would be fine at D3 instead of 4 - perhaps coupled with a "S+1 AP-2 D1 make two hit rolls each" sweep mode?

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

With the silly power creep that has reared its ugly head since the Dark Angels codex I would assume that all custodes will get a serious boost when the book arrives. I'm thinking increased damage on most weapons and an army wide rule to boost our survivability.

With that in mind I think Trajann would be find with a flat dam 3 weapon.

Skill at arms has become difficult to represent in game, 2+ weapon skill is everywhere so giving him (and perhaps all custodes) -1 to be hit in combat and extra attacks seems the only other way to show it.

40,000pts
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
:deathwatch: 3,000pts
:Imperial Knights: 2,000pts
:Custodes: 4,000pts 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I don't like -1 to hit, as everything has +gazillion to hit nowadays.

I would rather he grant more defensive army wide buffs. All CUSTODES units in the list are granted +1/2 to wound saves against melee attacks, and count as in light cover at all times. That at least negates the AP wave that is appearing on ranged stuff, and forces enemies to dedicate a high volume of fire to take us down at all, instead of just three shots of dark lance.
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

I would certainly agreed that the wave of increased AP is a big problem for the game.

The way the system is set up -1 should be decent, -2 very good anti armour, -3 heavy antitank, -4 the most powerful weapons that fully ignore armour.

With the escalation of weapon power and plethora of rules that buff AP the chances of ever taking an armour save of two or three plus are negligible.

GW seem to try and solve this problem by giving everything an invulnerable save which is a really poor idea in my mind as it negates the power of good weapons and just pushes everyone into medium weapons with boosted AP of -2.

I think a better solution for armies like Custodes who wear the best of the best armour would be do mitigate some of the weapon AP, either a flat "Reduce AP of all attacks by 2" or Half the AP of attacks, rounding down". This would allow us to actually use our decent armour save and not just rely on buffing our invulnerable save. I know adding more modifiers to the already broken AP system doesn't help the overall problem but it would help custodes.


40,000pts
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
:deathwatch: 3,000pts
:Imperial Knights: 2,000pts
:Custodes: 4,000pts 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Custodes already rock an armor save better then most main battle tanks. That's fine. But to say we need to avoid AP for me is a red line.

We should be able to be wounded, or killed. I don't think we should be able to be killed flat out in a single turn of shooting, which even a Storm lord can't do to us. Think about that.

No I think we need to re-evaluate the cost of Custodes. To avoid getting off topic, I would Drop Trajan to 120 points if he stays with the current rules.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, no dropping points. Custodes are supposed to be THE low model count elite faction and they should feel and play that way. Addressing the AP issue is certainly important. I'm certainly not against custodes getting a rule that reduces AP, especially since we are likely going to lose our 3++.

I still honestly don't see how my proposals would be op considering the current power creep especially when you bump Trajanns cost by 50. His axe going to flat 4 also isn't too much imo with all the - 1 dmg and 4+ invuln going around.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




His Axe very likely Is not going to flat 4. Also, you can only ever take a Single Trajaan so points cost for him shouldn't be prohibitive. You add 50 points to him and he costs as much as a MBT. Which he's not. Again, he's simply a buffer. If you are using him as a beat stick you are willfully sacrificing the best auras in the entire faction.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
His Axe very likely Is not going to flat 4. Also, you can only ever take a Single Trajaan so points cost for him shouldn't be prohibitive. You add 50 points to him and he costs as much as a MBT. Which he's not. Again, he's simply a buffer. If you are using him as a beat stick you are willfully sacrificing the best auras in the entire faction.


You keep saying he's just a buffing character. Right now he is, sure but we are taking about what he could and should be. Are you honestly telling me the captain general of the custodes is just supposed to be a buff dispenser? He absolutely is supposed to also be a beatstick and if he is priced appropriately, he can be both of those things.
I mean he is supposed to be the best imperial warrior alive aside from guilliman, his rules should at least in some part reflect that.

Edit: I btw completely agree with the points made here that for one: skill at arms is difficult to represent because most combat units can get a 2+ to hit and that -1 to hit debuffs are just incredibly weak with the utterly stupid hardcap on hit modifiers.

So how about this: GW is fond to implement rules like transhuman physiology on dark angels for example to show how tough they are. So keeping that in mind how about giving trajann (or custodes in general idk) a rule where they gan never be HIT better than a +4 in melee? This could represent their skill without going too much into useless -1 to hit modifiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 13:11:35


 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I feel like you are confusing fluff with Table top. He's a named character of the most elite imperial faction in the game, that doesn't mean he has to be Belakor. 200+ points for a single HQ is bonkers talk, unless he's got Gman-esque Army wide Auras. Right now, he's our best buffer, and our 2nd best melee fighter (Telemon is 1) He's not even that good at it. I would prefer that we not see any more power creep, especially on my Custodes, as we are already extremely overpriced considering the rest of 9th.

If they buff Custodes ala Dark Eldar, we won't be able to field more than 10 models.

You keep asking me why he can't be a 200 point character beatstick, is that REALLY what Custodes need? We need anti-horde shooting, anti-psker defense, and better MW defense. But yeah, a 200 point 9W model with 6 S10 attacks that moves 8" per turn and can be shot off the board in a single turn by HBs. No thanks. I'll keep the 160pt buffer with kinda pathetic attacks.
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I feel like you are confusing fluff with Table top. He's a named character of the most elite imperial faction in the game, that doesn't mean he has to be Belakor. 200+ points for a single HQ is bonkers talk, unless he's got Gman-esque Army wide Auras. Right now, he's our best buffer, and our 2nd best melee fighter (Telemon is 1) He's not even that good at it. I would prefer that we not see any more power creep, especially on my Custodes, as we are already extremely overpriced considering the rest of 9th.

If they buff Custodes ala Dark Eldar, we won't be able to field more than 10 models.

You keep asking me why he can't be a 200 point character beatstick, is that REALLY what Custodes need? We need anti-horde shooting, anti-psker defense, and better MW defense. But yeah, a 200 point 9W model with 6 S10 attacks that moves 8" per turn and can be shot off the board in a single turn by HBs. No thanks. I'll keep the 160pt buffer with kinda pathetic attacks.


OK a couple of things here: first Trajann currently isn't our second best melee fighter, far from it. I would even argue that the telemon is not nr1. Our best melee beatstick considering single target dmg output is the achillus.

Second I am so sick of this argument that fluff doesn't matter when discussing rules. So Space Marines can be T3 with a 5+ armor save and everything is good given they only cost 7ppm? Fluff somewhat represented in the rules is absolutely crucial, that doesn't mean Trajann has to be Be'lakor, and I never claimed he should be. But the top dog of the custodes should also be a beatstick, yes absolutely and it's kinda ridiculous that he isn't. Saying his fluff should be represented doesn't mean he should be a Primarch, there can be nuance in this.

And thirdly, yes custodes need that kind of beatstick character, cause we don't even have that right now. The closest thing is our bike captain and he is only good cause he is very tanky. His dmg output is laughable compared to even a canoness with the right relics and traits not to mention compared to succubi.

Oh and how would Trajann move 8" per turn? I didn't even propose to increase his movement?
You also said it's Op that he can fight twice with the possibility to come back if he dies, but with my proposals he could only to either of those things and only once per game. I don't see how thats too much since it's the same thing the moment shackle does right now anyway.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




All I can say is that I disagree. Trajaan is FAR from our most pressing need for change. Especially if the way 9th is going stands true for GK/1KSons. Get ready for d6 smites.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Let's look at Adrax Agatone.

Adrax is:
- 145 points.
- M6, WS2+, BS2+, S4, T4, W6, A5, Ld9, Sv 2+/4++.
- Has the Drakkis which is just an AP-1 flamer.
- Has the Malleus Noctum which is S x2, AP-3, Damage 4, and -1 to hit.
- Adds +1 to wound in melee to core units within 6 inch (on charge, was charged, heroic intervention), and reroll 1's to hit to core units.
- He also has -1 damage.

So, for 45 points more what does Trajann get?
- S5, T5, W7, Ld10 (meh), Sv 3++
- He has the Watcher’s Axe which is basically a 2 or 4 shot heavy bolter.
- Reroll 1's to hit and wound, so while not as good as +1 to wound it does work all the time as well as on both ranged and melee attacks.

Honestly? Other than the melee weapon damage it's fairly even, maybe Adrax is slightly better with the permanent -1 damage. If there was a buff needed I'd say probably just flat 3 damage would be enough. Maybe Moment Shackle could be changed to allow each ability to be used once per battle, rather than just 1.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/27 09:16:00


 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Wow, you ignored a LOT there.

Trajaan can be backed up by some of the best stratagems in the game, for characters. He also buffs, arguably, one of the most potent melee armies in the game. Adrax buffs a mid-low tier faction that became irrelevant the same month they were released. Also, Trajaans Champion of the Imperium can be brutally effective.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, you ignored a LOT there.

Trajaan can be backed up by some of the best stratagems in the game, for characters. He also buffs, arguably, one of the most potent melee armies in the game. Adrax buffs a mid-low tier faction that became irrelevant the same month they were released. Also, Trajaans Champion of the Imperium can be brutally effective.


All I suggested was making his weapon flat damage 3. When Custodes get around to their 9th edition codex all they really need is just their damage streamlined to make them more competitive. Such as:

- Adrasite spear (melee): 2 damage.
- Castellan axe (melee): 3 damage.
- Gnosis (melee): 3 damage.
- Guardian spear (melee): 2 damage.
- Interceptor lance (melee): 2 damage.
- Pyrithite spear (melee): 2 damage.
- Sentinel blade (melee): 2 damage.
- Somnus Blade: 2 damage.
- Watcher’s Axe (melee): 3 damage.

That get rid of any possibility of rolling a 1 for damage. I don't see Custodes needing much else. Maybe you could make their 6+++ on mortal wounds a 5+++. That's it.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




If we do 15 wounds per model it really doesn't do crap against a unit of 20+ models. We aren't hurting for massed wounds on big targets, we are hurting for "sweeping" weapon profiles, that give us many attacks against 1W units/models. That and Spam MW defense.
   
 
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