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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
I honestly think the main reason is because they want to put that stuff in another $50 book that you have to buy instead. They certainly don't want to give you free hooks for Crusade, that's definitely "another $50 book" material.


I think I'm misunderstanding your point. Questing to conquer Commorragh is literally the best thing I've read in 9th edition, and it kicks every mission pack's ass; the BoR too for that matter. Sisters is almost as good- the Living Saint stuff is pure gold, but taking penitent oaths and questing for redemption are just as cool. The machine creation rules in Admech are great too, but there is no overall story at work there- questing for components is fun, and building things is fun, but there isn't a context within which the glorious machines lead to an endgame.

Now maybe you're just referencing a lack of historical hooks and specific battles- personally I don't find that type of stuff to be as important as the Crusade content that IS in the Dexes, but if that is in fact what you're talking about, it is certainly accurate that there is none of THAT type of material in the Codex. It's also accurate that this IS the type of content that you'll find in the BoR.

But you can also find it in White Dwarf, and frequently, the stuff in WD gives you more to work with. I was disappointed with Plague Purge, and I don't really recommend it, even as an avid Crusade fan. The BoR had more of what I tend to think of as "Crusade Content" than Plague Purge did- missions, I find, don't particularly lock themselves into any of the "three ways to play" paradigms- I find them to be fairly interchangeable. Sure, their may be a line at the end of each mission that says- choose an extra unit to be marked for greatness, or earn an additional Requisition point, but beyond that, nothing in any of the missions seems to make them Crusade specific.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
Am I hearing correctly that now not only did they raise the price for 9th edition codexes, but in the process they're cutting back on A)?
I keep saying that GW's 40k material isn't worth the paper it's printed on. This only became more true with the super-quick release cycle and total points/errata rewrites they keep doing. Now they're cutting out more of the fluff? Why would you ever buy one...

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




PenitentJake wrote:

Now maybe you're just referencing a lack of historical hooks and specific battles- personally I don't find that type of stuff to be as important as the Crusade content that IS in the Dexes, but if that is in fact what you're talking about, it is certainly accurate that there is none of THAT type of material in the Codex. It's also accurate that this IS the type of content that you'll find in the BoR.


That's exactly what I meant.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 CEO Kasen wrote:
So lemme see if I understand this:

Codexes cost $50. They provide three major categories of things:

A) Fluff and backstory;
B) Artwork and model showcases;
C) Rules.

C) is already an ephemeral proposition unbefitting a big hardcover book because given the patch cycle of the game, those rules will be wrong - whether that's in a month due to errata, a year due to in-edition changes or 2-3 years because a new codex came out. Am I hearing correctly that now not only did they raise the price for 9th edition codexes, but in the process they're cutting back on A)?


Going by the SM and DG books, I'd say that the segment for A got reduced to fit in the Crusade element of C, give or take a few pages. Haven't sat down and compared page counts between 8th and 9th, but that's my gut reaction.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in us
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva





Hopefully for tenth edition they won't go back to the style of 3rd edition. Paperback cover, no fluff, and barely an army list with only a couple of pictures. Of course GW would charge 50 usd. If they would provide a solid rule set they wouldn't need to update all the time.

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well they need the extra page space to fit in 18 different layers of vaguely similar yet worded slightly differently special rules.


not really. those take up almost no extra room. Datasheets haven't gotten noticably bigger since 7th edition. I suspect this was a design decision made due to the size of the Marines codex.


It's these kind of decisions that make me wish we had seperate First-born Marine and Primaris Marine codexes.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

Pointer5 wrote:
Hopefully for tenth edition they won't go back to the style of 3rd edition. Paperback cover, no fluff, and barely an army list with only a couple of pictures. Of course GW would charge 50 usd. If they would provide a solid rule set they wouldn't need to update all the time.


No offense, but those codexes sucked. Coming into 3rd edition as someone who started playing in 2nd, imagine going to pick up your codex and instead of a 60-70 page codex filled to the brim with rich lore, you get a 20-page booklet that only has unit rules and a couple of fluff sentences for each entry, if you're lucky.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Pointer5 wrote:
Hopefully for tenth edition they won't go back to the style of 3rd edition. Paperback cover, no fluff, and barely an army list with only a couple of pictures. Of course GW would charge 50 usd. If they would provide a solid rule set they wouldn't need to update all the time.


Ah yes. The "Codex Pamphlets". Those were my primary reason for sitting out 3rd until the 3.5 books started rolling out.

Interestingly, I don't think they would do that. Gav Thorp said of those that "We went way too far in pruning those books." He was still working for them at the time and it seemed like they were generally in agreement at corporate that the 3rd ed codexes were just not a great move in retrospect.

As for 9th? IDK - They're in a tough spot. Most players have complained for years that it's just the same fluff over and over again (which it was). Remove some of it and "Hey! Where's my bestiary?! How am I to know what a Tech Marine is!?" I think they may have pruned back too much fluff (which is problematic for me because I don't enjoy what replaced it in the Crusade rules), but it's probably hard to find a balance between fluff that introduces new players to the history and background of the faction without causing the folks who have now bought the codex 6 times to sigh in boredom.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Honestly though, if they turn each codex into just the rules and dropped the book price down to say $10-15, that might be reasonable, especially with the digital copy included that will be presumably updated with all new rules changes, FAQ errata, and WD relevant rules. Then they could sell a big book of fluff that collates every factions lore for the edition for $50, I'd buy the fluff book for reading. I might even buy the codices for my armies assuming that they rigorously keep the digital copy updated as described.

As it is however, there's no way in hell I am shelling out $50 for a book of rules that will be partially outdated in a couple months and completely outdated in 1-2 years, especially when those rules are free online and regularly updated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rihgu wrote:
 SergentSilver wrote:
Well friends, on the up side, if there's nothing but datasheets and special rules in the books, then there's no longer any reason to buy them as those are freely available on sites like Wahapedia where they even keep it updated with FAQ errata and WD rules for free. Maybe GW is giving us what we've always wanted in the worst way possible (as usual), free digital copies of their books!


By that metric, GW always gave us what we wanted, as it was always possible to pirate codexes/rules.


The difference is that these sites aren't really pirating the whole book, just recording the collected rules into one easy-to-access area for no profit. You don't get the fluff or the pretty pictures, just the datasheets and rules. Then again, if GW reduces the books to just that as well, then you could argue they are just copy pasting the books. If it gets to that point though, I think GW is in serious trouble.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 14:08:07


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




SergentSilver 799215 11155460 248f98544e57fb53857c070ebe596d08.jpg]Honestly though, if they turn each codex into just the rules and dropped the book price down to say $10-15, that might be reasonable, especially with the digital copy included that will be presumably updated with all new rules changes, FAQ errata, and WD relevant rules. Then they could sell a big book of fluff that collates every factions lore for the edition for $50, I'd buy the fluff book for reading. I might even buy the codices for my armies assuming that they rigorously keep the digital copy updated as described.

As it is however, there's no way in hell I am shelling out $50 for a book of rules that will be partially outdated in a couple months and completely outdated in 1-2 years, especially when those rules are free online and regularly updated.


I've wondered lately if we've hit the point where each army might also get a small spiral bound book (similar to the GT packet book) that has JUST the rules and is a lower price. That way you could offer both the "big codex" and the smaller, cheaper "tourney codex." IDK, probably a bad idea, but it's got me thinking.



Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor





 Dysartes wrote:

Going by the SM and DG books, I'd say that the segment for A got reduced to fit in the Crusade element of C, give or take a few pages. Haven't sat down and compared page counts between 8th and 9th, but that's my gut reaction.


To be fair, the long-ass chains of date-marked and loosely associated event spam was... not the most exciting fluff in the book, so if that got replaced with something that is worth weighing into the equation. I was more disappointed that they stopped going in-depth unit-by-unit and describing in detail each of the models you actually play with, which was more interesting.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:

Going by the SM and DG books, I'd say that the segment for A got reduced to fit in the Crusade element of C, give or take a few pages. Haven't sat down and compared page counts between 8th and 9th, but that's my gut reaction.


To be fair, the long-ass chains of date-marked and loosely associated event spam was... not the most exciting fluff in the book, so if that got replaced with something that is worth weighing into the equation. I was more disappointed that they stopped going in-depth unit-by-unit and describing in detail each of the models you actually play with, which was more interesting.


yeah I mean sometimes we got fun lore. othertimes we got "the night of the hellblasters"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:

Going by the SM and DG books, I'd say that the segment for A got reduced to fit in the Crusade element of C, give or take a few pages. Haven't sat down and compared page counts between 8th and 9th, but that's my gut reaction.


To be fair, the long-ass chains of date-marked and loosely associated event spam was... not the most exciting fluff in the book, so if that got replaced with something that is worth weighing into the equation. I was more disappointed that they stopped going in-depth unit-by-unit and describing in detail each of the models you actually play with, which was more interesting.


You'd certainly think unit entries for units new in that book would be a given, wouldn't you?

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Karol wrote:
It is not a question of colour. Any army show by GW looks the same. Only stuff in the box, never any conversions.

It's funny you say this playing army with multiple units being conversions of other boxes in the book/pictures. GM in suit rings any bells, for one? How a photo of it doesn't show neatly converted model? You picked literally the worst GW range for that complaint.

This are blade guard that are ultramarines, they are blune. Those tyranids are that one fleet we paint everything etc.

First, that is not true. There are a lot of alt schemes in the books, GW just typically shows main theme on all units then alt theme on some. Otherwise it would just take too much paper, but WC webpage is full of alternative army pictures, both fanmade and official.

Second, you picked literally worst army (again) to complain about this, seeing SM have tons of alt schemes in supplements, so many I can't even count them, plus a lot of one off ones in main book - what more do you want, whole 250 page book on every single chapters in existence? SM are so well covered nothing less than that will improve the situation one bit...
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




It's funny you say this playing army with multiple units being conversions of other boxes in the book/pictures. GM in suit rings any bells, for one? How a photo of it doesn't show neatly converted model? You picked literally the worst GW range for that complaint.

Well yes. The question of course is, was it always the plan of GW to make a termintor box that makes a librarian, brother captins, chapters master, ancient with banner and an apothecary, with plans down the line to make GK plastic HQ kits, and then just didn't pull it through. Or does the box fullfil it purpose by accident. And from what I remember from 8th the GM NDK was a last minut addition, it never existed as an option or model before 8th, and the conversion GW showed was how to cut up freaking Voldus to mount him in the NDK., in time where the only way to get him was the triumvirate box. So it is a bit like telling ork players that they have so many model options, because they use so many WWII kits.

But maybe it is just my perspective, I don't really like how most armies in w40k look like or I don't care how they look. The representation in their books do look boring, comparing to the really awesome stuff people do with their armies around the world. So what I am just trying to say, is that if there has to be pages used up by pictures of models, then GW could at least pick the good looking ones and not the models they use unit boxs art covers.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Tycho wrote:
SergentSilver 799215 11155460 248f98544e57fb53857c070ebe596d08.jpg]Honestly though, if they turn each codex into just the rules and dropped the book price down to say $10-15, that might be reasonable, especially with the digital copy included that will be presumably updated with all new rules changes, FAQ errata, and WD relevant rules. Then they could sell a big book of fluff that collates every factions lore for the edition for $50, I'd buy the fluff book for reading. I might even buy the codices for my armies assuming that they rigorously keep the digital copy updated as described.

As it is however, there's no way in hell I am shelling out $50 for a book of rules that will be partially outdated in a couple months and completely outdated in 1-2 years, especially when those rules are free online and regularly updated.


I've wondered lately if we've hit the point where each army might also get a small spiral bound book (similar to the GT packet book) that has JUST the rules and is a lower price. That way you could offer both the "big codex" and the smaller, cheaper "tourney codex." IDK, probably a bad idea, but it's got me thinking.




I think GWs marketing schemers and money grubbers want your number now. You've figured out how to squeeze even more money out of the increasingly worthless codices they produce! Imagine all the GT codices they could produce, forcing players to buy new copies every time they make a major rules change!
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well they need the extra page space to fit in 18 different layers of vaguely similar yet worded slightly differently special rules.


not really. those take up almost no extra room. Datasheets haven't gotten noticably bigger since 7th edition. I suspect this was a design decision made due to the size of the Marines codex.


They do however now leave large gaps at the bottom of pages when they could combine sheet or add art/ lore text.

Eg look at the all the areas of blank space on pages; 94, 102, 104, 105 - could have vigentes, art, quotes, something - its much worse in AOS to be fair - sometimes its 3/4 of a page :(

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Since the end of 8th I now closely look at the codex reveals on Youtube before considering a purchase.

I love the Codexes for the lore and art. Without that, why throw $50 into the wind? The datasheets are next to worthless after several changes within a week or two.

If it's not hilarious typos (55point neophytes), its nerf/buffing or another 35-50 dollar book with brand new rules and changes.

I just use BS for actual gameplay. All for supporting but there's a limit



   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

It's yet more reasons for why I personally dislike Crusade, as the gutting of lore in the books is absolutely to fit the Crusade rules in there.

Which is made even worse because of the placement of said rules interferes with the flow and organisation of the rest of the rules within the book. They really should be in entirely separate sections towards the back of the book or just straight up separate books since they are a separate system.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
 
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