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Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Okay most probably haven't played AOS3 yet but I'm sure not that insignificant amount of people here have done like me and play the game so looking for in game experiences to see is the stinking feeling I'm having how real.

Basically what I was affraid would happen seems to have happened and even worse than what I feared for...

One feature in AOS2 I liked was how the kills weren't the end goal and objectives were what mattered. Not that insignificant amount of time the guy that got crippled/tabled won anyway. Sometimes things going as planned, sometimes on tight desperate fight after early set back by focusing on mission and bit of luck you were able to win anyway. Sometimes I even took grand strategy of "get totally beaten the hell out off but keep enemy from scoring long enough" if I felt I was in bad matchup in terms of killing. Blade's edge scenario was in particulary good for this.

However the AOS3 hold 1/hold 2/hold more, battle tactics and grand strategies makes getting sufficient lead in AOS3 very, very very hard and indeed both games I have played ended up in round 3 where opponent was for all intents tabled. There was no way whatsoever regardless of rolls I could lose anymore. I would literally need to let opponent to win(I literally could roll all 1's and he could roll all 6's and I would still win. Well let's give him double 1's for spell test when he needs double 1's to pass). All I need is move.

Sooooo....How have your games been? How many games have been still up for grasp on round 5? Has there been more tabling? Have you won any games after getting more or less tabled?

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






That's matched play when players aren't self-balancing. It has nothing to do with 3rd, or 2nd. It has been like that since the first GHB, nothing has changed.

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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

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Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





6 games of 6 games.

5/6 one side got whittled down so bad by round 3 that there was no point continue. 1 game we rolled priority round4. Double might have meant hail mary pass possibility. Even with double odds of win in low one digits.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Most of my games ended by turn 2 or 3. Thats just how AOS is designed. MOAR FUN MOAR DEATH MOAR EXCITEMENT
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






I've not played any games of 3rd edition yet, just picked up my Generals Handbook today. Pretty excited to dig into the new missions though.

I didn't find that in the previous two editions I ever had a situation where someone was tabled, but won.

I found that a lot of missions, the progress scoring really snowballed fast, and if you got a lead in the first couple of turns, your opponent could never catch up.

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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I've had two games where I got tabled but won. Though a number of others where we looked at things round 4 and said 'oh even if I/you table you/me the game is decided' so didn't play it out.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well bit more encouraging day today with 2 games. One still followed pattern of even(generally 0 vp gap after round 3, sometimes 2 vp gap) with after round 3 one side is so crippled that he can't stop other from going to +10 lead in quick succession.

However first game(ogor vs tzeentch) in savage gains scenario(basically old border war scenario except controlling only 1 middle objective is enough and as per ghur rules 3rd round player going 2nd removes one of the middle objectives if he so chooses. Which he generally wants to do unless he's already in huge lead at which point having 2 objectives he can keep scoring to keep even could be worth it) and this time pattern wasn't followed. Not surprising in scenario most common so far to aos2 scenarios.

Basically I got bit vp gap increased on rounds 2 and 3. It still wasn't much of getting crippled losing killing war and win as we were both exhausted by then with just couple units focusing on holding objectives(I took his home objective, he took mine) and scoring battle tactics(5/5 for both). So we were both in the end too exhausted to stop other from scoring which meant the early lead I had was enough.

So at least 1/8 game killing war was draw and early lead on primaries decisive.

Had a hunch this could be good scenario. Border war/battle for pass was fun one in aos2 too.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Thus far, my experience with 3.0 hasn't been great, mostly due to a mix of making bad choices, and the objectives being difficult.

Skaven against DoK, where the terrain layout blocked a lot of LOS for me, and Morathi could just tear through my army with very little I could do... Morathi should not exist in her current rules, IMO. Ditch the 3 wound max, it's really toxic game design.

OBR, typical Katakros list, against Gravelord Cavalry smash. Turn 1 charged by 2 Vampire Lords on zambies, 1 with a -1 to wound relic, the other a named character, and a vengorian lord that reduced rend. My Morteks, between the Monsters shutting off CAs for 1 unit, and being unable to stack CAs, made them extremely pillow fisted. I just couldn't really leave my deployment zone, due to the size of bases and other enemy positioning. So, OBR sucking this edition + a counter list.

Third game I've got so far, my skaven list from the war council forum, with just a few tweaks, against skew shooting ogors. I should have shot the gak out of the Leadbelchers instead of worrying about Ironblasters. And, the mission was a little difficult. I could keep up on scoring objective points, but I couldn't win any Predator Kills. Over all, bad play, but we went until the 4th round at least.

So far, all my games have been against armies I'm not used to playing against, and only in one was I tabled by turn 3-ish, the one against DoK.

Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Commenting on the OBR game; with a Katakros list your mortek guard should be a 3+ save, hitting on 2s and probably re-rolling 1s from chair guy's spell. Even at -1 to wound they should be both killing and surviving quite easily. Shutting off the CAs on one unit means you just give the other unit +1 attacks. Those dragons should have been gutted for overextending like that, was there something else going on?

Remember that Katakros' CA happens in the hero phase so you can stack it with command abilities used in other phases. Counter-strike happens at the end of the charge phase so isn't affected by roar, and you can stack it with endless duty. Since it is the opponent's turn you use counter-strike after he does monster actions and thus target the unit he didn't roar at, so even if he alpha struck before you were able to use Katakros' big CA you would still have one of those units at +1 attacks, re-rolling all hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidenote on the game against Morathi, you can use plague monks to hard-counter her. Statistically every 18 monks she kills will cause the 3 wounds you need and their own attacks/book of woes can make up the difference, killing her over the course of two rounds with out any need for support (other than the aoe battleshock immunity you'll have anyways). Monks actually like being MSU so you can just use 10-man units and not drain reinforcement points.

The downside is, of course, the practicality of physically getting 80 monk models ready for the table. Especially if one does not like the unit to begin with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/05 18:18:27


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Vengorian lord gives -1 rend to units attacking near it. I couldn't put enough damage on any of those three big 3+ save beat sticks, and they could freely give themselves +1 Save through a CA, or just cast Mystic shield for a pair of 2+ 6++ models that heal wounds after combat phases.

Yes I'm aware that Katakros CA 'stacks' with other CA's due to how it is applied. My morteks didn't really die, and I couldn't kill the big nasty beasts.

I don't have plague monks, I prefer taking verminus/skryre.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/05 18:56:51


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




In my first game I tabled someone bottom turn three but still lost on points.

Albeit going through it in my head, if I flipped a couple order of operations I'd have squeaked by with a 1 point win.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I've tabled an opponent and lost before. Its happened like, 3 times since the end of 1st ed for me.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Not sure if it counts, but in our Path to Glory campaign there is a player who has only tabled their opponent, but also lost each time they did that.

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Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





Rihgu wrote:
Not sure if it counts, but in our Path to Glory campaign there is a player who has only tabled their opponent, but also lost each time they did that.


Victory... But at what cost....
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




A tabled opponent can't score a grand strategy, and unless you table them on the bottom of T5 and/or somehow table them without taking their objectives, that means they'll almost always be down a minimum of 6 points. That means you need to have been ahead by 6 before you got tabled, which is very hard to do on missions that use the new 1/2/more system.

To table someone on those missions and still lose basically requires really misplaying on the battle tactics or your grand strategy before the tabling. It's certainly possible, but the OP is correct that it's much harder to get tabled and still win in AOS3 than in AOS2, due to the scoring changes.

   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Could you complete the control more terrain pieces if tabled?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, I suppose, in theory. If your opponent couldn't use the time after tabling you to claim more than you. Theoretically possible, in practice very unlikely unless you get tabled bottom of T5 or something like that.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Yeah definitely an edge case. Just couldn't recall how it functioned exactly. Just thought of it as I recently put it on a Gitz list I didn't think could pull off any others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 22:11:12


 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well yesterday another positive game. Positive in sense one side got more or less tabled but still actually had a chance to win.

Ogor vs lumineth. Lumineth turn 1 was more or less disaster(I dispelled 2 spells rolling well and auto dispelled another). My turn 1 I wiped out 30 spears no problem. I got doubled and ran over calthallar and 30 archers plus most of bladelords. Crucially one was left alive with 1 wound.

He had Teclis and 1 bladelord alive after my turn 2. I had 2 frostlords and 2 units of 3 mournfang and butcher alive. So needless to say his army was devastated.

BUT the scenario(power in numbers or what it's name was. Old edition better part of valour style) gave him a chance(though we misplayed scenario but I realized afterwards and there WAS way for him to come back).

After my turn 2 I had 5 vp's(2 battle tactics, 1 primary). He could burn all 3 of his(bladelord being still alive kept that objective for him due to obsec rule this scenario gives to battleline). He could teleport teclis to empty objective burning for 1 and complete conquer. So after turn 2 he would have 11 vp.

5 to 11. There¨s one primary objective left on board. How it could roll over.

T3 I go first. He burns final objective. It comes down to battle tactics. Which I still can do. All mournfang and 1 frostlord will get chance to charge Teclis. I kill it in one go, I win game. I fail to kill, I can't come back.

T3 I go second. Objective wont be burned. He needs to charge in and kill 3 mournfangs. If he can do that he is pretty close to winning game. It would get dodgy can I get frostlord charge him T3(distances) and if not I lose alltogether.

Still favourite to win here I think but at least lumineth had chance to win despite getting so near wipeout.

Some scenarios def works better than others keeping result unclear for as long as possible. Savage gains, power in numbers, marking in territory have been positive experiences so far.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

I still don't understand how not automatically losing when you get tabled is a good thing. AoS3rd has actually made this game worse.

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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






How did 3rd make the game worse in that respect?

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Not auto losing when tabled makes your opponent not go absolutely all in (just mostly) on killing your units. Having to consider mission parameters instead of just "murder all the things" seems superior to me.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Lordhat wrote:
I still don't understand how not automatically losing when you get tabled is a good thing.


You've got 5 turns to achieve the victory conditions. Wich isn't generally to table the other guy.
So if you table me but still fail to finish with the most VP? Too bad, you failed to achieve the objective.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Lordhat wrote:
I still don't understand how not automatically losing when you get tabled is a good thing. AoS3rd has actually made this game worse.


In a game where tabling is a regular common occurrence, it basically means no mission ever matters and every game is just table opponent.

Generally in a 'grand battle' wargame the function of having 'objectives' is to increase tactical choices beyond the often fairly simple problem of how do you most efficiently destroy the opposing army (most often: by moving forward and attacking that opposing army as quickly and straightforwardly as possible)

The element that I personally find somewhat unrealistic when it comes to that aspect is the fact that, generally, in wars when you had objectives that weren't kill the enemy, it wasn't an abstract 'we stand in this spot to get Victory Points towards Winning Our Victory' it was generally 'this crucial hill/fortification/position grants us massive offensive or defensive benefits, which will allow us to destroy our foes.

Thats why my missions generally feature some kind of benefit for the objective. A simple, easy setup for example:

-Two armies are fighting over a powerful magical artifact which takes the form of an objective in the center of the battlefield. If a player controls that objective at the end of their turn, they may have a unit within 1" pick that objective up. While holding the objective the unit holding it has either a 5+ ward save or improves their ward save by +1, and that unit may move the objective when they move in the movement phase, though the objective may only move a maximum of the Move characteristic of the unit carrying it. If any unit carrying the objective no longer has models within 1", or makes a Run or Charge move, the objective is dropped and the ward save is lost.

-The armies also must protect their supply lines. Before deployment begins each player places an objective denoting their supply depot on the battlefield. If at the beginning of any turn an enemy unit is controlling your supply depot, all of your units suffer -2 to Bravery for the duration of that turn.

And then after that have some abstracted victory points like, killing the enemy general is worth 1pt, the enemy supply depot is worth 2pts each turn you hold it and the center objective is worth 2pts each turn you hold it.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

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Made in us
Clousseau




In a game where tabling is a regular common occurrence, it basically means no mission ever matters and every game is just table opponent.


This. All of this. Warmachine was a big teacher in that - you had mission parameters but almost everyone I ever played with for the 2-3 years I played Warmachine ignored mission parameters and focused on kill the caster.

If you can win by tabling your opponent, or by achieving random objectives that change from game to game, people will build toward the sure thing - tabling their opponent.
   
Made in ca
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






I've played two games of aos3, and both I was tabled by sons of behemet within three turns, so not really gotten a full look at how the game plays.

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Clousseau




Thats one of the main unfortunate aspects of AOS. That the points don't really mean what you think they mean.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Sons of Behemat, last I checked, are also at the tippy-tippy top of competive armies... And you can't really escape that by building your list weaker to match your meta, because SoB don't really have many choices.

Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

The problem right now is that most AoS armies got a BIG price increase in points going into 3.0 and the game has made a huge shift from having big units of infantry into a (somewhat complicated) system whereby you can now only field a limited number of full units and the rest will have to be minimum strength units.

However because of the nature of Sons they've not really had any of those things change them. Their points were already very high because of the nature of their army. So whilst most other armies have lost models on the table, Sons have kept them. Fewer big unit blocks also doesn't really affect them as most of their army is single unit gargants and the cost of their battleline models is such that they are also not really affected by the limits.

Basically in an edition that has reduced army sizes and spread armies into fewer smaller blocks; Sons have remained what they were in 2.0.





Note smaller unit blocks isn't a totally bad thing; I think its GW's attempt to both distance AoS from Old World to come; and also an attempt to make a lot of elite style units more viable. In the past they were always competing with the same points in big infantry blocks; which just out survive most other things and are more generally efficient. So now that there's a cap on them it means that elite units have more scope to be used in the game.
It's kind of like trying to put the force organisation chart back into the game in a limited form.

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