Switch Theme:

Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Karol wrote:
Well if their shoting is not that optimal either, then what are they then? Because the only thing I can think of is a faction that achives its goals by running out of time and having huge 50 min turns, while opponents are not that willing to split the cost of an extra hour of playing, just so they have yet another 40 min turn.


I'd say that orks are decent at both roles. And they're supposed to have easier time mixing the elements. If for the most part we were mostly better at mellee with some ok-ish shooty components (at least since 5th ed till mid 8th), we're better at shooting now. However, we do have some good mellee elements but they have no chance of going toe to toe with mellee from other top books.

Anywayz, if you ask me, currently we're a top-tier army able to hold our own even vs de and admech if we get 1st turn. But the archetype has changed significantly and we have to ditch most of our old units. Boyz are weak and most tourney lists will forego all the troops except for grots - min or 30 for bauble wrap vs enemy first turn charges. Mek gunz got a nerf and can only realisticslly be taken solo, so you'll ever get to see 3 tops down from 6-18 you used to see in tourney lists. However, buggies - and especially skrapjets are very good, all the new stuff, except for anything footslogging, is also very good - all the squig units rate from very good to broken good, most vehicles got some sort of a buff, heck, there's even a number of reasons to run killa kanz now.

So,overall, the codex is a serious buff rulewise. And a serious nerf to the walletfor anyone who hadn't been running skrapjet spam previously.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 koooaei wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well if their shoting is not that optimal either, then what are they then? Because the only thing I can think of is a faction that achives its goals by running out of time and having huge 50 min turns, while opponents are not that willing to split the cost of an extra hour of playing, just so they have yet another 40 min turn.


I'd say that orks are decent at both roles. And they're supposed to have easier time mixing the elements. If for the most part we were mostly better at mellee with some ok-ish shooty components (at least since 5th ed till mid 8th), we're better at shooting now. However, we do have some good mellee elements but they have no chance of going toe to toe with mellee from other top books.

Anywayz, if you ask me, currently we're a top-tier army able to hold our own even vs de and admech if we get 1st turn. But the archetype has changed significantly and we have to ditch most of our old units. Boyz are weak and most tourney lists will forego all the troops except for grots - min or 30 for bauble wrap vs enemy first turn charges. Mek gunz got a nerf and can only realisticslly be taken solo, so you'll ever get to see 3 tops down from 6-18 you used to see in tourney lists. However, buggies - and especially skrapjets are very good, all the new stuff, except for anything footslogging, is also very good - all the squig units rate from very good to broken good, most vehicles got some sort of a buff, heck, there's even a number of reasons to run killa kanz now.

So,overall, the codex is a serious buff rulewise. And a serious nerf to the walletfor anyone who hadn't been running skrapjet spam previously.


Kanz are still hot garbage, you are correct with buggies, but not because they got better Damage wise for the most part, but because they dropped 20ppm on average.

Scrapjets went from 110 to 90pts and gained more shots with all of their weapons except the wing missile It now averages 2 Rokkit Kannon hits a turn instead of 1.33 Big shootas got....better...not really, but if you can get 18' range you get an extra 2 shots per gun which on the scrapjet means 8 extra shots or 2.66 extra hits.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Skrapjets got extra rokkit shots, extra app on all weapons for 2 turns, which is the most serious buff, got ramshackle AND got 20 pt cheaper.
If you want to count stuff, they got around 50% deadlier at range, factoring extra ap in, got noticeably tougher, got easy access to -1 to hit and much easier, albeit 1-use 5++ and got a price drop. And even before all that, skrapjets were a unit rating from decent to good depending on the list. Now they're very good at least. They start to be broken the moment you get that +1 to hit buff from freebootas.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 koooaei wrote:
Skrapjets got extra rokkit shots, extra app on all weapons for 2 turns, which is the most serious buff, got ramshackle AND got 20 pt cheaper.
If you want to count stuff, they got around 50% deadlier at range, factoring extra ap in, got noticeably tougher, got easy access to -1 to hit and much easier, albeit 1-use 5++ and got a price drop. And even before all that, skrapjets were a unit rating from decent to good depending on the list. Now they're very good at least. They start to be broken the moment you get that +1 to hit buff from freebootas.


Most of the stuff you mention is extra's not the model itself. The extra AP is only during a speedwaaagh, so requires a warboss, the -1 to hit requires another Speed Freak unit and 2CP, the 5++ requires a Big Mek with 30pt upgrade KFF and 2CP and afterwards its useless.

When you measure a unit like this you can make almost anything sound amazing when you don't factor in the other costs associated with these buffs. Don't get me wrong, I think the scrapjet is amazing (I own 3) its literally my favorite of the buggies because of its looks...honestly the rest look like trash to me But yeah, it got an extra D3 rokkitz, more big shoota shots at half range and it did get the new Ramshackle rule which is nice.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


A Horde faction that accomplishes tasks with quantity rather than quality. The problem as mentioned before is that GW doesn't understand how to design this correctly, hence we have Ork boyz sitting at 9ppm with less durability than they had at 8ppm, even though they gained T5.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

What makes them less durable?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The nerfs to KKF and morale.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


A combined arms force just like space marines. Or to be more precise, a less melee focused combined arms force than space marines.

If in doubt, calculate the percentage of dedicated melee units vs dedicated shooting units in each codex. Do it again, ignoring all characters. Even beast snaggas adding five dedicated melee units did not vastly do anything about the heavily tilting towards shooting.

Melee has just been supporting tool for their shooting since at least fourth edition. The heavily lifting across the competitive builds of previous editions has been done by lootas, koptas, kanz, old buggies, dakkajets, big guns, mek guns and tank bustas, and it looks like the new buggies will be joining that club now.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/08/06 06:58:21


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




A horde army should be vulnerable to morale - they shouldn't have their cake and eat it. Same reason they shouldn't have an invulnerable.

Points can change (and we will see how they come out in the wash) but the design around the boyz unit seems spot on to me. They feel tough to kill.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Umbros wrote:
They feel tough to kill.


What makes you come to that conclusion?

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






SemperMortis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


A Horde faction that accomplishes tasks with quantity rather than quality. The problem as mentioned before is that GW doesn't understand how to design this correctly, hence we have Ork boyz sitting at 9ppm with less durability than they had at 8ppm, even though they gained T5.


Ad mech are also pretty mediocre without buffs. And de are very bad without raiders. Dark angels can't run termies effectively without a flag and an apothecary. Are you in an environment where buffs are banned? Than what's the point of what you're trying to say?

Orks are top tier now and you proceed to whine about something as a habbit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/06 08:36:01


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


They've never been a melee focussed army. If you look at all their codex you'll notice way more shooting oriented units than choppy ones. And some of the choppy ones are actually 50/50 choppy/shooting at least, like all the walkers.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
When you measure a unit like this you can make almost anything sound amazing when you don't factor in the other costs associated with these buffs.


Not really sure I'd agree on this - because stacking buffs is the aim of the game, and unless there's a clear opportunity cost its not unreasonable to assume players will do so. If you take a load of shooty vehicles, its not really a cost to assume you'll bring a Trikeboss and Speedwaaagh. If the Trikeboss was massively inferior to another option (say a Squigosaur boss) you could say this represents a cost - but I'm not entirely convinced that's the case and the upside of Speedwaaagh is so obvious it would pay for itself.

I think you'd have a case if people ran around saying "this part of my army will be Freebooterz and benefit from Speedwaaagh and this part will be Goth and benefit from regular Waaagh". Because this is impossible/unrealistic. (Sure chuck in Ghaz but at 300 points you are down a unit or two versus a regular boss - and the way Freebooterz works its obviously going to have diminished benefit if you are only splashing it with one detachment.)

But its not really unrealistic to say your whole army leans heavily one way or the other and so these buffs naturally follow - because I expect that's how Ork lists will be built.

To look at it another way - why are Kanz "hot garbage"? I mean on their unit stats alone they are probably about right at 40 points. You get a bit of shooting, 3/4/5 (with 3 left in a unit and Waaagh) WS 4+ S8 AP-3 3 damage attacks, and 5 T5 3+ wounds, with Ramshackle protecting you from sub S8 multi-damage attacks. You could maybe push this down to 35 points, but I don't think in the context of 40k this is all that bad. Morale is clearly an issue if you were to take big units - but if you stick with 3 its not apocalyptic. There are some ways to help their leadership, but that would I think count as unrealistic resource expenditure.

The problem however is that they are slow at M6" and there isn't much you can do about it. They are not core so don't get to advance and charge on that first turn of a Waaagh - or benefit from other possible synergies. I guess there is ramming speed - but 2CP seems prohibitive to help out a relatively modest fraction of your army. You can't use it on say 3 units of Kanz.

So in game, its hard to see what you can do with Kanz beyond plonking them on the table, have them waddle towards your opponent, and hopefully charge something turns 2 or 3, before they are destroyed. At 120 points they don't need to do very much to make their points back - and if they die its no great loss - but its hard to see how they let you take the initiative. I therefore wouldn't expect to see them in a competitive list because they aren't obviously serving to be greater than the sum of their parts. They are hot garbage precisely because you can't boost them up the power curve. They are however pointed about right for a casual game where players tend to just throw their armies into each other and see what happens.

Tricked out Scrapjet spam however seems way ahead of the curve.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Umbros wrote:
A horde army should be vulnerable to morale - they shouldn't have their cake and eat it. Same reason they shouldn't have an invulnerable.

Points can change (and we will see how they come out in the wash) but the design around the boyz unit seems spot on to me. They feel tough to kill.


Have you played a game against them?

Because my experience so far has been: My opponent makes a remark the first couple times they have to wound on 5s with their boltguns, and then every wound they get through removes a model, then the morale phase rolls around and the same nubmer of models they killed run away from morale.

and from that point on they're not worried about how durable ork boyz are.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Yep, that matches my experience as well. Morale isn't crippling because you simply don't run mobs of 30 anymore, but the extra morale losses feel like they even out the wounds not taken from the extra toughness.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Umbros wrote:
A horde army should be vulnerable to morale - they shouldn't have their cake and eat it. Same reason they shouldn't have an invulnerable.

Points can change (and we will see how they come out in the wash) but the design around the boyz unit seems spot on to me. They feel tough to kill.


Well, and that is the problem, to you and many others "They feel tough to kill" but in reality, they aren't. Games are coming in now which are showing this trend to be true. Against a competent opponent, they will whittle down several mobs instead of outright killing 1 because the threats have so drastically changed with this new codex.

In 8th, if you didn't finish off every last boy in a mob they could use auto-pass morale and than greentide to bring back the entire mob. They benefited from KFF and morale bubbles.

In 9th Codex, you kill 6 boyz in each mob to almost guarantee failure (only insane bravery helps), in a mob of 30 you than lose 1 to morale and than 4 more to attrition. Can no longer green tide, can no longer benefit from a 5++ KFF, can no longer benefit from morale buffs. And they got a points bump.

So yes, they are significantly less durable now.

Honestly, the only way I could see Boyz going back to Horde is either fixing the morale issue OR dropping their points back to 7ppm or even back to 6. If neither is addressed than Horde style orkz in big mobz is effectively over. At most you will see MSU, and I wouldn't go bigger than minimum size.

 koooaei wrote:


Ad mech are also pretty mediocre without buffs. And de are very bad without raiders. Dark angels can't run termies effectively without a flag and an apothecary. Are you in an environment where buffs are banned? Than what's the point of what you're trying to say?

Orks are top tier now and you proceed to whine about something as a habbit.


I love this statement. Besides your random insult you threw in there, we are currently operating under the assumption stage. Neither of us has hard data to prove one way or the other and yet you feel its ok to throw out insults to defend your position. I'm not saying the Ork codex is the worst ever made or other nonsensical statements, but when compared honestly with other 9th edition codexs its absolutely on the lower end of the spectrum. And I have seen several ork tournament players agree with this. We don't have any broken combo's like Drukhari and Ad-Mech have, we don't have ridiculous durability like DA and DG got, we don't have a ridiculous level of stacking buffs like other factions (Ad-Mech) have access to. What we do have is a plethora of High toughness models which put out an ok amount of firepower and are good in CC. We aren't the best in either ranged nor CC but we can hold our own. The old adage "Shoot the choppy and Chop the shooty" very much applies. But the other old adage for orkz "Boyz before Toyz" is absolutely not true this edition. In specific regards to Boyz and your reply, I'll gladly eat my words if you can take an old green tide list of 180+ boyz and do well at tournaments. I don't think we will see that after the initial release is over and players have a month or two to learn how to destroy orkz.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Blackie wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


They've never been a melee focussed army. If you look at all their codex you'll notice way more shooting oriented units than choppy ones. And some of the choppy ones are actually 50/50 choppy/shooting at least, like all the walkers.

Aren't the shooty units better in melee than shooting though? Don't they also have relatively short ranged weapons?
We're not talking about Tau here.
I think the description of them being a combined arms faction where shooting and melee complement each other seems fair.
I'd argue though that shooting is meant to help melee because the superior melee stats should result in some more kills.
Orks really should have a pinning mechanic. That's what DDD should have been, a rule that debuffs enemy units because of the amount of suppressing fire they receive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, that matches my experience as well. Morale isn't crippling because you simply don't run mobs of 30 anymore, but the extra morale losses feel like they even out the wounds not taken from the extra toughness.

Yeah, but the fact you shouldn't run mobs of 30 anymore is a problem.
Greentide was viable and fluffy, now it isn't viable. That's not a good thing.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/06 14:21:51


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Greentide is a horrible experience for both the player and the opponent and the archetype has always live at the cost of any other archetype. It needed to die in order to make room for more fun lists.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Jidmah wrote:
Greentide is a horrible experience for both the player and the opponent and the archetype has always live at the cost of any other archetype. It needed to die in order to make room for more fun lists.

It was still a viable and fluffy way to run orks up until 8th ed, where it really began to make turns drag on from stratagems, Advance and way, way more dice rolling than was probably needed. It took a problem that 8th ed had (long turn times. I did not have a 2k game run for 3+ hours in previous editions until 8th ed. And this was with Necrons) and exacerbated it.
I'm not saying you're wrong, under the IGOUGO system and the 8th ed Ork rules Greentide was a miserable experience. In earlier editions though it was fine and was an iconic way to run orks, and I find seeing it get phased out (albeit for a good reason) to be a pity and as such not a good thing.
I'd rather that it remained viable, but players themselves choose not to run it out of convenience than GW twisting the rules to punish greentide through Mob Rule nerfs and higher points per model.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/06 17:10:08


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






SemperMortis wrote:
Umbros wrote:
A horde army should be vulnerable to morale - they shouldn't have their cake and eat it. Same reason they shouldn't have an invulnerable.

Points can change (and we will see how they come out in the wash) but the design around the boyz unit seems spot on to me. They feel tough to kill.


Well, and that is the problem, to you and many others "They feel tough to kill" but in reality, they aren't. Games are coming in now which are showing this trend to be true. Against a competent opponent, they will whittle down several mobs instead of outright killing 1 because the threats have so drastically changed with this new codex.

In 8th, if you didn't finish off every last boy in a mob they could use auto-pass morale and than greentide to bring back the entire mob. They benefited from KFF and morale bubbles.

In 9th Codex, you kill 6 boyz in each mob to almost guarantee failure (only insane bravery helps), in a mob of 30 you than lose 1 to morale and than 4 more to attrition. Can no longer green tide, can no longer benefit from a 5++ KFF, can no longer benefit from morale buffs. And they got a points bump.

So yes, they are significantly less durable now.

Honestly, the only way I could see Boyz going back to Horde is either fixing the morale issue OR dropping their points back to 7ppm or even back to 6. If neither is addressed than Horde style orkz in big mobz is effectively over. At most you will see MSU, and I wouldn't go bigger than minimum size.

 koooaei wrote:


Ad mech are also pretty mediocre without buffs. And de are very bad without raiders. Dark angels can't run termies effectively without a flag and an apothecary. Are you in an environment where buffs are banned? Than what's the point of what you're trying to say?

Orks are top tier now and you proceed to whine about something as a habbit.


I love this statement. Besides your random insult you threw in there, we are currently operating under the assumption stage. Neither of us has hard data to prove one way or the other and yet you feel its ok to throw out insults to defend your position. I'm not saying the Ork codex is the worst ever made or other nonsensical statements, but when compared honestly with other 9th edition codexs its absolutely on the lower end of the spectrum. And I have seen several ork tournament players agree with this. We don't have any broken combo's like Drukhari and Ad-Mech have, we don't have ridiculous durability like DA and DG got, we don't have a ridiculous level of stacking buffs like other factions (Ad-Mech) have access to. What we do have is a plethora of High toughness models which put out an ok amount of firepower and are good in CC. We aren't the best in either ranged nor CC but we can hold our own. The old adage "Shoot the choppy and Chop the shooty" very much applies. But the other old adage for orkz "Boyz before Toyz" is absolutely not true this edition. In specific regards to Boyz and your reply, I'll gladly eat my words if you can take an old green tide list of 180+ boyz and do well at tournaments. I don't think we will see that after the initial release is over and players have a month or two to learn how to destroy orkz.


That's more of an observation than an insult.

Back on topic, foot hordes are not competititive. Mech and squig spam are. It's true there are no tourney results but our rather competitive group has run a number of tests vs the most cutthroat lists that dominate competitive meta. Tests show orks are on par. The best units are: skrapjets, blastajets, killrigs. Bikers,squigbuggies and dakkajets are good at their specific role. Kommandoez and stormboyz are good at missions. Grots are overpriced but you need a troop slot and they help to screen your buggies first turn.

The results are not exclusive for our group. Basically every competitirve community that runs tourneys and has all ready tested orks got comparable results. Best units are always these, however, some say trukknobz are good. Honestly, they're ok but I'm not sure if good or not ATM



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's make it more interesting. Why don't we hold a bet. If orks get in at least 1/2 of the tops in metawatch (currrently there are 0) after the official release, you send me a blastajet. If not, I send you something of comparable price that you want.

This way we can end this arguement, that's obviously not leading anywhere. Didn't mean to insult, just talking straight.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/06 18:27:46


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The problem with the idea of orks being crap but cheap and play like that IS that models cost the fething same.

If SM dreadnoughts are 120ppm and Ork deffdreads are 60ppm and are equivalent in 1:2 ratio they would still cost dpuble the money.

Thats ends Up with ork stuff being just sliglty cheaper point wise and normally much worse in rules with some exceptions but ork stuff being just as good feels wrong for most people outside some stuff (meganobles should be some of the top meele units on the Game with drawbacks like morale or speed. In reality they are just crappy terminstors)

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





 Galas wrote:
The problem with the idea of orks being crap but cheap and play like that IS that models cost the fething same.

If SM dreadnoughts are 120ppm and Ork deffdreads are 60ppm and are equivalent in 1:2 ratio they would still cost dpuble the money.

Thats ends Up with ork stuff being just sliglty cheaper point wise and normally much worse in rules with some exceptions but ork stuff being just as good feels wrong for most people outside some stuff (meganobles should be some of the top meele units on the Game with drawbacks like morale or speed. In reality they are just crappy terminstors)


Yep, the Nids conundrum. Definitely frustrating.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


They've never been a melee focussed army. If you look at all their codex you'll notice way more shooting oriented units than choppy ones. And some of the choppy ones are actually 50/50 choppy/shooting at least, like all the walkers.


What leads to that misconception that orks are a very melee focus army is the fact that our base troop and orks most emblematic unit, the boyz, are melee focus or, in the case of shoota boyz, a versatile bland of melee and shooting (well that's if they finally got slightly better guns or BS 4+). Ork troops do perform best in close combat, but in reality they are basically either a distraction, objective holders or the mop up crew. Orks in general, operated most often as some sort of WWI army with lots artillery shooting and preparation and then a big charge to wash up the leftovers and claim the objective. Right now, I believe we will be entering the era of "Mad Max Orks" (which is frankly a rather cool spin) with a horde of fairly well armed and varied light vehicles and small trukk mounted troops buzzing around the battlefield, mostly doing its work at range and bullying weakened and crippled units of objectives with melee units, but very vulnerable to counter fire.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 koooaei wrote:

Let's make it more interesting. Why don't we hold a bet. If orks get in at least 1/2 of the tops in metawatch (currrently there are 0) after the official release, you send me a blastajet. If not, I send you something of comparable price that you want.

This way we can end this arguement, that's obviously not leading anywhere. Didn't mean to insult, just talking straight.


Metawatch as in FLG? Hard pass, those idiots rated so many things incorrectly that they are laughable. Pretty sure they employ Reece for instance, and his "The stompa will be great" argument is still hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


They've never been a melee focussed army. If you look at all their codex you'll notice way more shooting oriented units than choppy ones. And some of the choppy ones are actually 50/50 choppy/shooting at least, like all the walkers.


What leads to that misconception that orks are a very melee focus army is the fact that our base troop and orks most emblematic unit, the boyz, are melee focus or, in the case of shoota boyz, a versatile bland of melee and shooting (well that's if they finally got slightly better guns or BS 4+). Ork troops do perform best in close combat, but in reality they are basically either a distraction, objective holders or the mop up crew. Orks in general, operated most often as some sort of WWI army with lots artillery shooting and preparation and then a big charge to wash up the leftovers and claim the objective. Right now, I believe we will be entering the era of "Mad Max Orks" (which is frankly a rather cool spin) with a horde of fairly well armed and varied light vehicles and small trukk mounted troops buzzing around the battlefield, mostly doing its work at range and bullying weakened and crippled units of objectives with melee units, but very vulnerable to counter fire.

Fairly good job describing orkz honestly. The one thing I really want to point out though is that those shootaboyz are crap. The most use they've had in recent years was as 10 models slapped onto a 30 mob to 1: eat wounds and 2: occasionally be used to lightly harass a target the unit isn't going to charge. Dakka 3(2) is absolutely stupid on a 18' range weapon. If it was 24 maybe, but 18? Hard pass. In reality a shoota boy should have been upgraded to BS4 and kept 3(2) or failing that, 4(3).

Put it this way. At ranged combat with 4 shots each a mob of 30 shoota boys averages 40 hits, 20 wounds and against a Marine unit that's 6.6 wounds for 3 dead Marines.

270pts kills 60pts. Not even a 1/4rd return on value.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 20:51:33


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:

Fairly good job describing orkz honestly. The one thing I really want to point out though is that those shootaboyz are crap. The most use they've had in recent years was as 10 models slapped onto a 30 mob to 1: eat wounds and 2: occasionally be used to lightly harass a target the unit isn't going to charge. Dakka 3(2) is absolutely stupid on a 18' range weapon. If it was 24 maybe, but 18? Hard pass. In reality a shoota boy should have been upgraded to BS4 and kept 3(2) or failing that, 4(3).

Put it this way. At ranged combat with 4 shots each a mob of 30 shoota boys averages 40 hits, 20 wounds and against a Marine unit that's 6.6 wounds for 3 dead Marines.

270pts kills 60pts. Not even a 1/4rd return on value.


Right now, I have to agree that shoota boyz are very bad with Bad Moon making them just bad (or at best very niche). What I will disagree with though is how you evaluate the worth of a unit as its pure killing output. A unit isn't good only because it can kill its worth in point, especially not in an objective based game. It's worth something if it can accomplish an objective and can trade fairly well against its mirror in the opposite army. The "kill your point to gain your worth" system, while not completely wrongheaded, is how you evaluate something like a glass hammer. It's how I would evaluate the strength of a Dark Eldar Succubus or even little Wytches for example and right now they are basically to glass hammer what orgasm is to sex, but that's not how I would evaluate the overwhelming majority of troop choice units.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Wych or succubi are glass only if someone runs them on foot. And both those units trade up.

Boys don't trade up.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

SemperMortis wrote:


Put it this way. At ranged combat with 4 shots each a mob of 30 shoota boys averages 40 hits, 20 wounds and against a Marine unit that's 6.6 wounds for 3 dead Marines.

270pts kills 60pts. Not even a 1/4rd return on value.

Why aren't you charging after shooting? If you're close enough to use the better Dakka profile you're probably close enough to try to attempt a charge.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
Wych or succubi are glass only if someone runs them on foot. And both those units trade up.

Boys don't trade up.


It depends what they are fighting and almost all of the time you are correct, because Wytch are glass canons while boyz are not supposed to be. You can sit some boyz on an objective and not feel too bad about it. If you do the same with Wytches you are a complete idiot or desperate since they are almost twice more fragile than the already fragile boyz. The irony, is that slugga boyz don't compare all that unfavorably to Wytches in close combat though the lack of "fight first" stratagem, special rule, psychic power or mechanic makes them less desirable and this has been a long standing problem for orks (and one of the reason they can't hold a candle to true melee specialists). Back in earlier edition, low initiative made orks lose a bit of punch in close combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/07 01:19:57


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: