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A lot of companies exploit the passion of employees to get staff to work for less. GW isn’t different in that regard but it’s a scummy practice, 20k a year even with unlimited overtime is less than I earned when I was a replaceable dogs body at a courier. And that company had less of a profit margin than GW. The wages paid for the product James was producing was criminal, I could never write rules but he has much more strength than me for sticking it out that long.

MaxT wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Now - an acknowledgement of the key role developers/designers play in the company, and to increase base salary.

With all respect to James and the other games devs, but from a GW business perspective they’re not top 5 critical, and probably not even top 10. They’re certainly not key to be called out above several other roles.

well the last time GW tried to sell models without a game to play we got AoS and that did not worked well until they added a proper game

so I disagree and say the rules are essential to sell the models in masses
i just might be that GW still haven't realised why their models sell

Having a game is like magic for selling toys.

I mean even at my most enthusiastic days of GI Joe and Transformers and Star Wars I would never want more than one of a figure or vehicle. And I wanted the latest and greatest, not last years stuff.

With a game GW can sell me the same darn kit year after year for decades and I'll like it.

Some interesting opinions on fair wages and such.

I strongly support anyone who votes with their wallet and refuses to purchase anything from those companies and their suppliers they believe is not paying or treating their employees with the level of compensation or dignity that you think the employees are deserving of.

If you are not voting with your wallet you are passively supporting the status quo.

Similarly, if you object to paying higher prices that are needed to raise the level of compensation or improve the work environment for those employees you are actively supporting the status quo.

Remember change starts with you!

In addition to game developers, here are some other companies who you probably also want to avoid due to their alleged sub-par compensation and inhumane treatment of employees or use child and even slave labor.

Apple
Microsoft
Samsung
LG
De Beers
Toyota
GM
Ford
Fiat Chrysler
Daimler Benz
BMW
Tesla

Most Grocery store chains and retailers (Walmart, Kroger, Macys, etc.)
Almost every major clothing manufacturer (Nike, Adidas, etc.)
Every fast food and convenience store chain (McDonalds, Starbucks, Yum Brands, etc.)

 Lord of Deeds wrote:
Some interesting opinions on fair wages and such.

I strongly support anyone who votes with their wallet and refuses to purchase anything from those companies and their suppliers they believe is not paying or treating their employees with the level of compensation or dignity that you think the employees are deserving of.

If you are not voting with your wallet you are passively supporting the status quo.

Similarly, if you object to paying higher prices that are needed to raise the level of compensation or improve the work environment for those employees you are actively supporting the status quo.

Remember change starts with you!

In addition to game developers, here are some other companies who you probably also want to avoid due to their alleged sub-par compensation and inhumane treatment of employees or use child and even slave labor.

Apple
Microsoft
Samsung
LG
De Beers
Toyota
GM
Ford
Fiat Chrysler
Daimler Benz
BMW
Tesla

Most Grocery store chains and retailers (Walmart, Kroger, Macys, etc.)
Almost every major clothing manufacturer (Nike, Adidas, etc.)
Every fast food and convenience store chain (McDonalds, Starbucks, Yum Brands, etc.)

I can't tell if you believe that all wages are fair wages or just that there's ethical consumption under capitalism.

Remember kids, if you can’t fix every problem in the world, there’s no use trying to fix even a single thing. Knowing is half the battle, after all.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/27/warhammer-maker-games-workshop-hands-staff-5000-bonus-after-lockdown-sales-surge

Is it coincidence that this article pops up today?

 Azreal13 wrote:
You say that, what do you think would happen to model sales if they abandoned the idea of games altogether, pulled all the codexes and made the dev team redundant?

The idea of fielding an army on the tabletop is crucial to the GW sales process. It isn't critical that the rules are good but they're a critical part of what GW sells its customers, which isn't models.

Sure in that example sales would go down. But if they made the logistics staff redundant, they’d be out of business in a week. If they got rid of their manufacturing staff, they’d be out of business by the time their stock has run out. If they got rid of their sculptors and pulled all models and try to just sell codexes they’d lose more sales than what you suggest. That’s 3 groups of staff off the top of my head that are more important than games devs.

Of course games devs are important to the overall GW business. But “key most important” is a high bar, and they aren’t it.

I’ve already been voting with my wallet against GW. Now I will even more. Somehow.

Also, earlier comments reminded me of this amusing comic.

MaxT wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
You say that, what do you think would happen to model sales if they abandoned the idea of games altogether, pulled all the codexes and made the dev team redundant?

The idea of fielding an army on the tabletop is crucial to the GW sales process. It isn't critical that the rules are good but they're a critical part of what GW sells its customers, which isn't models.

Sure in that example sales would go down. But if they made the logistics staff redundant, they’d be out of business in a week. If they got rid of their manufacturing staff, they’d be out of business by the time their stock has run out. If they got rid of their sculptors and pulled all models and try to just sell codexes they’d lose more sales than what you suggest. That’s 3 groups of staff off the top of my head that are more important than games devs.

Of course games devs are important to the overall GW business. But “key most important” is a high bar, and they aren’t it.

That's really just a bit of a truism that can be applied to nearly any company.

It also really doesn't make sense in the context of how a company works. If the sculptors go, what does manufacturing make? If the writers stop writing books, what do logistics ship? You're trying to isolate a specific department and make it "more important" in the same way one might argue your brain is more important than your heart for being alive. The reality is it's an interdependent web.

However, for GW giving their models a context for use is a vital part of their money making process, and without it their cashflow falters. For the product they design, make and sell, games are crucial. It's right there in the name.

I agree with you, it is an interconnected web, my original reply was in response to “ Now - an acknowledgement of the key role developers/designers play in the company,”.

My point is they shouldn’t be acknowledged above all others in the company.

They literally create what the company sells, or, more specifically, they create the thing that makes the other thing the company makes sell.

Without them there's no logistics, no IT, no accountants, no legal, no HR etc etc.

Without those departments the company may well go out of business, without miniatures and rules design, there isn't even a business in the first instance.

As things stand now, there's interdependence, but the creative departments are the genesis.

Would paying them more increase revenue?

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would paying them more increase revenue?

Some places have found that increased pay leads to more productive workers which leads to increased revenue, yes.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Spoiler:

I’ve already been voting with my wallet against GW. Now I will even more. Somehow.

Also, earlier comments reminded me of this amusing comic.

That comic never gets old to me. It turns out yes, you can complain and try to figure out a way to improve society while also existing inside of it. How people can seriously think they are intelligent for calling someone out for that is incredibly silly.

Rihgu wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would paying them more increase revenue?

Some places have found that increased pay leads to more productive workers which leads to increased revenue, yes.

Who would have thought that having less stress on how to make ends meet would make the worker more productive. Much like how hours worked is not the best gauge of productivity since as hours go up each extra hour gives diminishing returns while also burning out the worker. Its why sectors like the videogame industry lean so heavily on young excited just out of college people - because they are an expendable resource they can just grind into dust while making absurd profits for the company, shareholders, and ceo.



Also bonuses are a horrible way of gifting out pay that is rightfully owed the workers - they make the company what it is, and without them the entire behemoth would grind to a halt. Hoping for a nice bonus on a record breaking year is not a sustainable way of putting food on the table and paying rent. Giving everyone a permanent 5k raise that exists every year does a hell of a lot more. Considering the amount of cash GW has been bringing in the past years, they can easily afford to grant living wages to all of its employees as well as a set pay increase structure.

I mean hell, the place I work guarantees two raises a year (or one if you hit your positions pay cap) of 0.25$/hour for part timers, 0.50$/hour for full timers, and I think, last I heard, a flat 3% increase for those on salary, and its not like I work at a glamorous gig.

Why would GW need to pay the rules writers more, when they can push out any crap rule system and people will buy it anyway?

What's the incentive? feelings?

Rihgu wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would paying them more increase revenue?

Some places have found that increased pay leads to more productive workers which leads to increased revenue, yes.

Broadly agree. There's a thing in economic theory called Maslow's Hierarchy, which basically says (I'm paraphrasing heavily, but it holds up) if your employees are worrying about paying the bills they'll suck at their job.

So if the studio is all on a high enough salary that they can afford a home, to feed themselves and their family, keep some to one side for a rainy day, maybe go on holiday once or twice a year etc etc, then no, paying them more likely wouldn't increase productivity by anything significant.

If your employees are in the sort of situation that James appears to describe in his tweets? Then absolutely paying them more could increase productivity.

Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!

Non-wargaming image removed

 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!

Not everyone can afford to treat jobs like stepping stones that can be discarded for the next one at a whim. In fact, I'd say its likely that more people are stuck in a situation of working a crap job with crap pay because it is all they can get than aren't. Talking about the abuses an employer commits on its workers is one of the few powers people have to enact change, unless they can instantaneously find a new and better job, have a big enough nest egg saved up from their current job, or have friends/family they can fall back on to for awhile while collecting unemployment. When we are talking about close to minimum wage pay, that really makes the ability to just pick and choose jobs hard since it is hard to build any sort of emergency backup fund off of that.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!

Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."

It's also a big part of what keeps jobs in creative industries largely the preserve of the middle classes and above - if you need to be able to "put in the time" working a job that doesn't pay a living wage, that naturally favors people with existing financial resources.

Rihgu wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Would paying them more increase revenue?

Some places have found that increased pay leads to more productive workers which leads to increased revenue, yes.

I continue to buy GW models and books but have not played a game in a few years or even bought rule books. Partly this is because I've been overseas but even when I'm home the motivation just isn't there.

Largely because the rules are just bad, and getting worse. They're inconsistent, hard to follow, sometimes too broad, sometimes too granular and just not fun.

So yes. I believe that attracting and retaining better rules writers would sell me more products, get me to play more games, and get more revenue to GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blastaar wrote:


Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."

And from Hewitt's tweets we know that moving from store manager to game designer was a step down financially.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blastaar wrote:


Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."

And from Hewitt's tweets we know that moving from store manager to game designer was a step down financially.

Which makes little sense, to be honest

 lord marcus wrote:


Which makes little sense, to be honest

I think it's a question of supply and demand. Every GW employee would like to be in the game developer job. So GW has made it a policy of hiring qualified people who will work for the lowest salary possible.

Rather than say, the best qualified people.

Now a lot of the problems in rules writing is driven by marketing, rules writers have to write for the models, and write to sell special dice, cards etc. As well as tight deadlines and the need to serve 30 years of legacy units and models.

But even with all of that, I can't imagine anyone looking at the current Space Marine codex (for example) and feeling professional pride.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.

This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!

Then maybe it's a good idea not to indulge GW in drinking their Kool-Aid. All you've done here is recite exactly that, effectively giving the company a free pass because it's just how things are, while condescendingly assuming a whole bunch of things about people in those types of jobs. It's hardly unreasonable to call out a company making huge profits off the back of its creative employees for barely paying those employees a living wage. One of the things that allows companies to keep salaries low is by making it difficult to find out how much your peers earn, which is why they love it when people don't discuss salaries.

Many can't treat it jobs as a stepping stone. They need to be paid fairly now, not some unknown time in the future. When a company says "take it like a gentleman" or some other equally stupid phrase, what they really mean is don't question our authority because we have no good reason for keeping pay and conditions so bad. Having a whole bunch of workers who are "crying on the inside" because of your corporate policies is a stupid way to run a business and everyone's lives and productivity improves if you improve pay from a level where key employees are barely making a living wage.

 privateer4hire wrote:
Kinda surprised that they don’t have better NDA in place to prevent this type of information from surfacing. And then I remember that it probably won’t change a single person’s buying plans.

{shrugs} Good rules, bad rules, or something in-between.... GW makes its $ off me by selling me great looking models. Even during periods when I'm not playing any of their games.

Sharing this here, as it's been appended to the thread.

https://lagoon83.medium.com/working-at-games-workshop-the-nuanced-version-edda9ffb1237

The "we can't pay you a penny more than £21k, just physically impossible" then hiring a guy on £26k to replace them is so distastefully typical.

At my work someone left for a similar reason, so they had to go a temp contractor to fill the roll at 4x the rate. ...Guess who had started working for that contractor and took the role

I'm a bit disappointed at the attitude from a few, that it's somehow OK for GW to massively underpay a highly talented, very successful rules writer.

Make no mistake that £20K pa, or a bit more, in Nottingham in 2017, is very very low pay.

I can add a couple more data points. I've never worked for GW but have applied for jobs there around 4-5 times, and twice got to the salary discussion stage.

1) 2007, sub-editor job. I still have the email from them, after I asked for salary info before taking the train to Nottingham at my own expense, confirming the starting salary as £23,000. Immediately after the interview they offered me the job... at £18,000. I was outraged and said "no". Obviously. Such complete bs.

2) 2021, lead game designer job. I got to the 2nd stage of the interview process, which was a fairly involved task, so again I asked about salary before I started said task. They said £50,000, so I did the task. Didn't get the job; I have a feeling it went internally. Having followed the Twitter thread, I suspect it went internally to someone on maybe £28K and they gave them a rise to £32K, something like that!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I continue to buy GW models and books but have not played a game in a few years or even bought rule books. Partly this is because I've been overseas but even when I'm home the motivation just isn't there.

Largely because the rules are just bad, and getting worse. They're inconsistent, hard to follow, sometimes too broad, sometimes too granular and just not fun.

So yes. I believe that attracting and retaining better rules writers would sell me more products, get me to play more games, and get more revenue to GW.

I've also been buying models while being repulsed by the rules for the last couple of years too. The gentleman in question, however, pointed out that GW has no incentive to make these better rules:

lagoon83 wrote:A good game designer would see that the company's need is for an ever-changing meta, which means some level of imbalance is a) inevitable and b) desired.

And that's without even getting into the fact that AOS and 40k are inherently nigh-impossible to balance.

That's without getting into usability and other dark arts.