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1.Horus Lupercal
2.Jaghatai Khan
3.Rogal Dorn
4.Fulgrim
5.Abaddon
6.Constantin Valdor (since he was the Emperor's first "son"/tool, and took part in the UW)
7.Lion El'jonson
8.Creed
9.Helbrecht

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 09:18:28


 
   
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dorset

most of the guys you listed are very good at tactical level warfare. They are good at using the forces on hand to achieve their objectives, and fighting to their strengths. what they stuggle with compared to Guilliman is at the operational and strategic levels, basically the choosing of sensible objectives, and choosing which battles to fight to achieve those goals.

If you put Guilliman and horus on the field, facing each other, with 100% equal armies, odds are on Horus to beat Guilliman. But once you re-introduce the complexities of logistics, supply lines, secondary fronts etc, i'd rate Guilliman higher as his whole shtick is he's the best organiser. when the big battle shows up, his forces are in better shape, they have secure supplies, less of their equipment is broken down, etc. he's got more of his troops at the point of decision because hes not wasting troops on a symbolic but irrelevant secondary objective, etc, etc.

Creed is the same sort of general as Guilliman, but just less capable due to being a mere human. Abaddon thinks he's this sort of general, but lacks the skills to do it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 09:56:07


To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






The biggest issue is that none of the non-Primarchs would be superior to Guilliman purely because of his experience and enhancements.
Horus was made Warmaster because he was a warrior and a leader who could command the Imperium in the Emperor's stead. Guilliman and the Lion are often noted as being possible close contenders but the Lion loses out because nobody likes him and Guilliman is just a little bit worse than Horus. The Khan and Fulgrim are not officers, they are war leaders. They still know tactics and strategy but neither would be willing to sit around on a wall like Dorn and the Fists.
   
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^I always felt that Guilliman was actually better than Horus in terms of raw capability as a leader, just not quite as charismatic/politically savvy.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
^I always felt that Guilliman was actually better than Horus in terms of raw capability as a leader, just not quite as charismatic/politically savvy.


me too, what made Horus the obvious pick for warmaster was he was universally loved by his brothers

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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dorset

Meh, I see charisma, or at least commanding the respect and willing obedience of your subordinates, as a core part of leadership. Most of the famous generals of history were at least somewhat charismatic in some way. You just can't command an army if you can't man-manage. As Horus was much better at this that Guiliman, id say that is part of why he was a better tactical general than G.

I must also point out i'm comparing Horus and Fulgrim at thier great crusade heights to G. Once they fall to chaos, while they might be physically more powerful than before, i'd argue they are less capable mentally due to the warping effects of chaos. Fulgrim, particularly, goes off the deep end of excess and is no where near as good a general as he was during the Great Crusade. Horus less so AFAIK, but he also suffered form Designated Villain Syndrome post Istvan, which kinda limits his abilities massively.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 22:00:11


To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Horus's biggest flaw was his ego. First it was that he was the first Primarch reunited with the Emperor, then his acclaim during the Crusade, then being named Warmaster and renaming the Luna Wolves to the Sons of Horus. His ego did suffer when he was made Warmaster as he believed himself unworthy to take the place of the Emperor and then the war against the Interex did similar damage. The Chaos Gods took advantage of Horus's shaken faith and played to his original ego at the same time.
   
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I remember reading that Dorn is probably the best "soldier" of all the primarchs. He's the best at commanding an army in battle, what contemporary soldiers call "grand tactics" or "operations," and also very good at the big picture (strategy) and the little picture (tactics). Guilliman is Dorn's superior at logistics and organization, and is more flexible -- in the social, mental, and moral senses.

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xerxeskingofking wrote:
most of the guys you listed are very good at tactical level warfare. They are good at using the forces on hand to achieve their objectives, and fighting to their strengths. what they stuggle with compared to Guilliman is at the operational and strategic levels, basically the choosing of sensible objectives, and choosing which battles to fight to achieve those goals.

If you put Guilliman and horus on the field, facing each other, with 100% equal armies, odds are on Horus to beat Guilliman. But once you re-introduce the complexities of logistics, supply lines, secondary fronts etc, i'd rate Guilliman higher as his whole shtick is he's the best organiser. when the big battle shows up, his forces are in better shape, they have secure supplies, less of their equipment is broken down, etc. he's got more of his troops at the point of decision because hes not wasting troops on a symbolic but irrelevant secondary objective, etc, etc.

Creed is the same sort of general as Guilliman, but just less capable due to being a mere human. Abaddon thinks he's this sort of general, but lacks the skills to do it.

A good post, but someone like Horus would have had more and better motivated troops at the decisive battle than Guilliman. Horus is said to have been a very charismatic leader, which would translate to being able to motivate more people to side with and to fight for him, thus giving him access to more forces than Guilliman would be able to muster. And they'd have higher morale as well, as a charismatic leader can drive his men to go to greater lengths than they normally would.

Guilliman is a very competent logistician, but I don't think he has the same kind of charisma that Horus had. Guilliman is practical and efficient, but also kinda boring.

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I don't think charisma is that important in industrialised warfare- there are other ways to motivate the troops and most of the millions of soldiers under a Primarch's command will never see them directly.

It largely only becomes relevant for winning the loyalty/support of the upper echelons.

So Horus' charisma was important for getting other Primarchs to support him, but probably meant bugger all to the average Imperial Army trooper fighting to get their slice of retirement on a new world.

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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






 Haighus wrote:
I don't think charisma is that important in industrialised warfare- there are other ways to motivate the troops and most of the millions of soldiers under a Primarch's command will never see them directly.

It largely only becomes relevant for winning the loyalty/support of the upper echelons.

So Horus' charisma was important for getting other Primarchs to support him, but probably meant bugger all to the average Imperial Army trooper fighting to get their slice of retirement on a new world.

If you think of the Imperial forces like the levies of Feudal Lords then the charisma factor comes into play quite a bit.
Horus inspired Army troops from generals to rank and file with his great oratory skill. It didn't matter if it was combat or guard duty, the mortal soldiers under Horus respect and loved him not because they were commanded to but because they chose to. When a general caused issues for Horus just as he was planning the Heresy, Horus was able to maneuver the generals death, replace him with a loyal follower and have the troops further cemented in their loyalty to Horus rather than the Emperor by giving them vengeance.
Look at Macharius, his generals loved him for the glory he brought but at the same time he had the respect and admiration of the rank and file troopers, indeed it was these same troops that would be the reason Macharius's Crusade went on for so long.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 Haighus wrote:
I don't think charisma is that important in industrialised warfare- there are other ways to motivate the troops and most of the millions of soldiers under a Primarch's command will never see them directly.

It largely only becomes relevant for winning the loyalty/support of the upper echelons.

So Horus' charisma was important for getting other Primarchs to support him, but probably meant bugger all to the average Imperial Army trooper fighting to get their slice of retirement on a new world.

I disagree - historically speaking having a charismatic sovereign is very important for the war effort. Soldiers are more likely to perform well if they actually like the man in charge and cause they are fighting for. Which is where propaganda and charisma comes into play. It's easier to sell a war to the public if you are a good orator and have the media on your side.
Industrialization has not changed that; look at the World Wars, and look at Vietnam.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 16:34:28


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except that the problem with this comparison is Gulliman's subordinates loved him. the only thing Horus seemed to have over Gulliman was he was more loved by his BROTHERS

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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Which subordinates are we talking about here? Because there were members of the Traitor Legions that preferred Horus to their own Primarch. Pre-Heresy many of the Army troops in the 63rd Expeditionary Fleet were more loyal to Horus than the Imperium (of course at that point they were the same thing). During the Heresy many worshiped Horus as a God and even Army Regiments founded on Terra for action during the Siege ended up being followers of the Eye.
   
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 Gert wrote:
Which subordinates are we talking about here? Because there were members of the Traitor Legions that preferred Horus to their own Primarch.


given the triator primarchs included such wonderful leaders as Angron and Mortarian that doesn't suprise me.

Horus got the broken primarchs

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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






I seem to remember Ferrus Manus being fairly broken.
   
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Horus would never see most of his troops. That means that any love for him was artificially generated through image manipulation and propaganda, and could be equally well generated for any other primarch through the exact same methods.


 
   
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 Gert wrote:
I seem to remember Ferrus Manus being fairly broken.


I'm talking mentally. in one of the novels even horus notes this. that all the rational capable primarchs who could have worked with him without going cookoo, where loyalists, and he got stuck with the Angrons, the Cruz's the Perturbeo's etc

all of whom had MAAAAJOR issues

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






TBF Magnus literally had his soul shattered by Russ, Fulgrim was fine-ish until he ascended and just left, Lorgar was fine until he go too big for his boots and tried to overthrow Horus, Alpharius was busy having a shadow war with Omegon, Perturabo hating Dorn didn't reduce his capabilites as a leader and in fact he was probably one of the few Traitor Primarchs that was a legitimate threat throughout the whole Heresy, Mortarion likewise was sane and a serious threat. Only Angron and Curze were maniacs but even then they were very useful maniacs that did serious damage.
As for the Loyalists, Sanguinius was plagued constantly by his visions of the future and took a long time before he realised nothing was set in stone, Guilliman got trapped in the Imperium Secundus and had to deal with Lorgar, Angron, Curze and the Lion to keep things under control, the Lion is just generally a prat, Vulkan and Corax didn't really do much after they got nuked at Istvaan, Ferrus got decapitated, Dorn was plagued by self doubt about his actions and the Khan wasn't even sure of his loyalties for a good portion of the Heresy.
   
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Perty's problem wasn't that he hated Dorn, Perty's problem was his fragile ego.

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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






I would say his loyalty was a bigger one. When he made an oath he kept it, it's why when he swore himself to the Emperor he allowed no failure in his Legion lest he fail the Emperor. The razing of Olympia was, at least in Perturabo's mind, a breaking of the oath he swore to the Emperor. When he joined Horus, Perturabo was a loyal general and it took him a long time to see that Horus was using him just as the Emperor had, taking his loyalty for granted and playing it off against Perturabo knowing he would never break his oath. Perturabo during the Siege of Terra books is the best depiction so far IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 12:12:40


 
   
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Haighus wrote:
I don't think charisma is that important in industrialised warfare- there are other ways to motivate the troops and most of the millions of soldiers under a Primarch's command will never see them directly.

It largely only becomes relevant for winning the loyalty/support of the upper echelons.

So Horus' charisma was important for getting other Primarchs to support him, but probably meant bugger all to the average Imperial Army trooper fighting to get their slice of retirement on a new world.

I disagree - historically speaking having a charismatic sovereign is very important for the war effort. Soldiers are more likely to perform well if they actually like the man in charge and cause they are fighting for. Which is where propaganda and charisma comes into play. It's easier to sell a war to the public if you are a good orator and have the media on your side.
Industrialization has not changed that; look at the World Wars, and look at Vietnam.


Except, in the First World War, basically none of the millions of soldiers had personally heard their sovereigns speaking. They might have seen quotes in the newspaper, but that is easily curated by a propaganda arm. However, "for king and country" and similar motives was used to drive millions to fight in a broadly pointless war. The actual monarch* in charge was little more than a distant figurehead of the nationhood concepts that had been fed to the troops. Lots of men joined up to avoid letting their communities down, not because King whatever-their-face smiled nicely in the newspaper. I think this is just as true for the generals and admirals commanding the forces.

WWII was frankly little different. Sure, the wireless meant the masses actually knew what their head of state sounded like, but more or less every major combatant had heavily filtered press offices putting their own propaganda spin on the situation.

This is no different for the Imperium. Trooper Josephus Bloggs of the 3175th Solar Auxilia has never met Horus or the Emperor, he probably never will. Everything he knows about them will have been curated through a military press office. He probably only joined up for a better life than his miserable existence in a factory or something.

Ketara wrote:Horus would never see most of his troops. That means that any love for him was artificially generated through image manipulation and propaganda, and could be equally well generated for any other primarch through the exact same methods.



Exactly. Horus' charisma will come into military prominence very rarely, and is largely only useful for upper echelon politicking with other commanders to gain logistical security or military support and loyalty.


*For most major belligerents. France was a republic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Perty's problem wasn't that he hated Dorn, Perty's problem was his fragile ego.


Moreso in the FW HH interpretation, he also appears to have had some Primarch-grade PTSD with the meatgrinder warfare his legion was constantly assigned to without respite. In the latter GC, this appears to have been a deliberate target of Horus in order to break him and bring him into the traitor fold.

The purging of Olympia was the snapping point where Perturabo's trauma, and that of his Legion, came home to roost. After that, he felt he couldn't go back.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/01 12:37:03


 ChargerIIC wrote:
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Guilliman doesn't just strive for Victory, he wants to leave conquered worlds habitable, compliant, and structured to be self sufficient when the Marines leave.

That is why he was at odds with most of his brother primarchs, loyal and traitor.
   
 
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