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Man, I hate being right.

Has GW ever gone as far as filing suit against anyone since the chapterhouse thing?
Apart from being sued what's the worse case scenario for a creator? Is there any precident for a GW related YouTube channel being shut down against the creator's will?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.

If you did, your third thought would have been : "GW didn't go after TTS at all, the creator decided himself alone to put his channel on hiatus"

Ah yes "i shut down to avoid lawsuits". There is totes no outside influence there.

Chikout wrote:
Has GW ever gone as far as filing suit against anyone since the chapterhouse thing?
Apart from being sued what's the worse case scenario for a creator? Is there any precident for a GW related YouTube channel being shut down against the creator's will?

YouTube CR system is a hair trigger that anyone can use on behalf of anyone else and YT is notably bad at actually resolving false claims.
Direct action isn't needed on behalf of GW because the idea behind these updated IP rules is to prevent content being created that would challenge Warhammer +. It's been deemed too risky for the TTS group to be the ones to test the waters on these new rules and honestly that's what GW is likely going for.

 Gert wrote:

Chikout wrote:
Has GW ever gone as far as filing suit against anyone since the chapterhouse thing?
Apart from being sued what's the worse case scenario for a creator? Is there any precident for a GW related YouTube channel being shut down against the creator's will?

YouTube CR system is a hair trigger that anyone can use on behalf of anyone else and YT is notably bad at actually resolving false claims.
Direct action isn't needed on behalf of GW because the idea behind these updated IP rules is to prevent content being created that would challenge Warhammer +. It's been deemed too risky for the TTS group to be the ones to test the waters on these new rules and honestly that's what GW is likely going for.

It doesn’t help that people can sit hidden behind the internet making it almost impossible to contact them without using YouTube’s system to bring them out.
With YouTube’s size it’s probably impossible to police it without the automatic systems.
Sometimes it is smarter to not push that risk for what may be little gain but a hollow victory.

Since it seems they are doing it without contact from GW, it may even just be a extra motivating factor.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I mean Alfa literally says the new IP update from GW is what has caused this so....... yeah, cause and effect.

Like I said: He didn't comprehend a second of that video.

It was clearly stated why it was happening. The idea that someone can interpret that video and divorce GW's own actions from the resulting actions of TTS's creators speaks to a level of cognitive dissonance that I can't comprehend one second of.

I didn't watch the video.

UFFFFF this sucks.
No clever comment or insight needed, this just plain sucks.

Oh man! When I saw the thread name I thought it was about Tabletop Simulator...

I think parody should be untouchable. I'll wait and see how this plays out. For now I subbed to his patreon and I'm having second thoughts about subscribing to WH+ in light of these news.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.

The only one being dishonest here is you, and really anyone who is trying to push the "But they didn't make him do it!" line of thinking.

Again, the rest of us seem to understand the cause an effect on this, and that the actions taken by the makers of TTS are preemptive and precautionary. You seem to take that as an excuse to go "Well, technically GW had nothing to do with that, so it's all on TTS, not GW, who remain innocent and blameless and paragons of ultimate virtue and our bestest bestest friends in the whole wide world!.".

That's the true dishonesty here. But of course, you, Sarouan, are incapable of understanding that.

I didn't say GW remain innocent and blameless. Besides, I'll just ignore your baseless attacks about my capacity of understanding what was in the video, even though I took the time to listen it all.

What I hate is that people take this video and immediately say "GW shuts down TTS !", while that's not what happened.

It's a fact TTS is put on hiatus from the guy's own decision.

It's a fact TTS didn't receive a cease and desist letter from GW. Hell, even so little as being contacted.

It's the fact the video itself is all about explaining his fears and personnal justifications why he came to this.


Yet the direct cause of the channel being put on hiatus isn't GW forcing him to do it...he did it himself from his own decision. You can't even say he did it because he had the confirmation GW doesn't allow his work to be monetized because it's clear he didn't try to contact them as well for clarifications / requests if he can continue.

You're going way too passionnate about this and clearly are assuming things from me based on your own perception on who I am. Not like I can remove your own delusions from your mind.

Feel free to think whatever you want about me, I don't care. It won't change the facts here, and no matter how you try to spin them, blaming GW about TTS channel being put on hiatus is taking quite the easy shortcut : the creator is the only one making the decision, here.

Besides, he tells what he wants in his video. Maybe he took the opportunity of the new updated guidelines on GW's website to decide it's a good time to put his channel on hiatus because it actually helps him right now, but takes that as a good excuse. We won't know that.

Only thing that we know is that he puts it himself on hiatus because he claims it's too risky for him.


It's a bit like someone listening to a documentary saying how much the insecurity rises in the streets to decide he won't go outside and claiming it's because he's afraid of the possibility being attacked by deliquents.

Hard to blame the delinquents themselves on that case as well.

All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

GW might have taken action; they might have taken action only at some parts or they might have taken no action. In the end its a situation basically in limbo.


Whether you agree iwth the creators choice in taking the course they have is basically academic as there are arguments on both sides. In the end they've made this choice themselves and as big as they are, GW might not feel any need or pressure to actually reach out to them even if they have no plans or legal basis to act.

Sarouan wrote:
It's a bit like someone listening to a documentary saying how much the insecurity rises in the streets to decide he won't go outside and claiming it's because he's afraid of the possibility being attacked by deliquents.

Hard to blame the delinquents themselves on that case as well.

It's more like someone reading an official statement by the Popo that they're enacting a zero tolerance policy for hobos sleeping on park benches, so now he's afraid of taking a nap on one during his work break.

And so it begins..

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think Alpha makes a good point that it is not so much about the literal text of GW's policy update but how it is a part of a broader culture shift back towards the customer-unfriendly GW of the past. Really struck a chord with me.

This is the point for me too.

 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

GW might have taken action; they might have taken action only at some parts or they might have taken no action. In the end its a situation basically in limbo.


Whether you agree iwth the creators choice in taking the course they have is basically academic as there are arguments on both sides. In the end they've made this choice themselves and as big as they are, GW might not feel any need or pressure to actually reach out to them even if they have no plans or legal basis to act.

Exactly this. Can't exalt this post more.

Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
It's a bit like someone listening to a documentary saying how much the insecurity rises in the streets to decide he won't go outside and claiming it's because he's afraid of the possibility being attacked by deliquents.

Hard to blame the delinquents themselves on that case as well.

It's more like someone reading an official statement by the Popo that they're enacting a zero tolerance policy for hobos sleeping on park benches, so now he's afraid of taking a nap on one during his work break.

Yep, good analogy as well. Still it's not the police to blame here. He's still the one assuming things from a text, not even trying to confirm if his fears are correct and deciding himself he won't take the risk...even though he's not sure it's real or not.

 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

GW might have taken action; they might have taken action only at some parts or they might have taken no action. In the end its a situation basically in limbo.

I believe that is the whole point: Police yourself, or else. And for that, the less information you give out, the better. The monsters someone conjures in their minds and all that. That way they get what they want, and don't even need to do a damn thing.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.

Since the updated guidelines ? Where are the proofs ? Or is it another attempt to distort the facts here ?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.

Context is everything though and its important to also remember of many of those targeted many were also offered work/contracts by GW and were making profit off fan works created based on the GW IP/content.

Honestly GW is taking actions that I expect of them now that they are moving into videos as a market, the same as they've taken against video games when they moved into that market. Don't forget as much as GW might be hiring animation firms; animation firms might also approach GW to use their IP and pay a licence fee for that .

A lot of this is also complicated by the fact that over the last 10 or so years we've seen the rise of things like Patreon where fan created works go from being just a fan making a fan work for fun; into something that generates significant income to the point of being their primary income source (or a significant income source at the very least). This significantly changes some things when it comes to fan works.

Sarouan wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.

Since the updated guidelines ? Where are the proofs ? Or is it another attempt to distort the facts here ?

You know preciscly which animator i mean, cue last thread.
But then again that didn't bother you either since gw good is a Staple for you.

Self-censorship. In just a few days GW have instituted rulership by fear, where fans police themselves and each other. It's imbecilic to argue that GW "didn't do anything". They did plenty, they explicitly changed their policy and then shut down a slew of projects from fan animations to "GW compatible" miniature sculpting in rapid succession. When the police are raiding a rave it's a bit dumb to stand there and think everything is fine because they didn't get to you yet.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.

Since the updated guidelines ? Where are the proofs ? Or is it another attempt to distort the facts here ?

You know preciscly which animator i mean, cue last thread.
But then again that didn't bother you either since gw good is a Staple for you.

You mean the guy who got hounded out of animation by fans before he'd even done any negotiations to work for GW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Self-censorship. In just a few days GW have instituted rulership by fear, where fans police themselves and each other. It's imbecilic to argue that GW "didn't do anything". They did plenty, they explicitly changed their policy and then shut down a slew of projects from fan animations to "GW compatible" miniature sculpting in rapid succession. When the police are raiding a rave it's a bit dumb to stand there and think everything is fine because they didn't get to you yet.

Several of those miniature sculpting campaigns are back online.

The "not nighthaunt" one even posted this. (sorry for the large size it wasn't my original screengrab)

Not Online!!! wrote:


You know preciscly which animator i mean, cue last thread.
But then again that didn't bother you either since gw good is a Staple for you.

Then it's just another case of the facts being distorted, because that animator in question didn't receive a cease and desist letter...he was contacted by GW who ask him if he wanted to work with them, he refused for his own reasons and was asked not to monetize GW IP content. And he did that himself. It was simply a contact.

Besides, the animator in question said he'll still continue his work with GW IP, just not monetized, and GW seems apparently fine with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Self-censorship. In just a few days GW have instituted rulership by fear, where fans police themselves and each other. It's imbecilic to argue that GW "didn't do anything". They did plenty, they explicitly changed their policy and then shut down a slew of projects from fan animations to "GW compatible" miniature sculpting in rapid succession. When the police are raiding a rave it's a bit dumb to stand there and think everything is fine because they didn't get to you yet.

Come on, GW isn't the police breaking your door to kill your family as retribution of stealing their IP...

Honestly, there's a lot of noise in the fan animation community right now and with a lot of videos made that do nothing to appease their fears, rather ignite them...it's not a surprise we have this result.

People are freaking out themselves alone, so far. I'd say to come back to this topic when the real cease and desist letters are sent...if they are at all.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Self-censorship. In just a few days GW have instituted rulership by fear, where fans police themselves and each other. It's imbecilic to argue that GW "didn't do anything". They did plenty, they explicitly changed their policy and then shut down a slew of projects from fan animations to "GW compatible" miniature sculpting in rapid succession. When the police are raiding a rave it's a bit dumb to stand there and think everything is fine because they didn't get to you yet.

This is exactly what happened last time.

I think the actual number of C&Ds issued in the late 00's/early 10's was very low. But, with a year you had forum members on some sites ratting on each other to report them to GW, site moderators stepping in and removing posts and threads because there was such a climate of fear.

This time around it looks like the Youtube channel and fan community there will be the biggest impact rather than the forums, but the overall effect will be the same. Let's hope that it doesn't go as far.

 nels1031 wrote:
My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.

Same!

(I am not a lawyer, I am certainly not a lawyer specializing in UK IP case law, this is not legal advice)

If TTS or another parody channel did try to fight they'd have a tough time. After all GW would not complain to them, they would go to You Tube and Patreon who, I am sure, would demonitize or remove them because You Tube and Patreon don't feel like fighting the good fight in the name of defending the right to make parodies.

If, like Chapterhouse, they had their own site and GW had to confront them directly... it's still not a slam dunk.

Parody (AFAK, and in US law) is a protected part of free speech allowing creators to use copyrighted materials for parody. But it does not allow companies to infringe on trademarks. So drawing some Hello Kitty Marines or photoshoping Trump as the Emperor or whatever would seem to be a fair use parody.

But using Warhammer names, logos, iconography etc, trademarked images that identify something as a GW product, would be out. Since every Ultramarine and Guardsman and such has GW trademarked logos on them it would be hard to have an identifiable Marine or guardsman in a video without stepping on trademark issues.

As noted in the video an original work, even if it was the Gawd Umpire of Sacred Earth would have greater protection than videos using GW's trademarked and copyrighted images. Think of the old Mad Magazine parodies (it was a lawsuit against Mad that established the parody exception BTW) where everyone gets a silly name.

Generally fan works have, for a long time, been tolerated for the reasons we all mentioned - too small to bother with, free advertising, who does it hurt, why pick a fight with your biggest fans.

But as the gig and patron economy have taken off and fan works have a reach of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions (TTS has 380k subscribers) and become monetized the game has changed and these reasons are not as valid as they were 10 years ago (to say nothing of 30 years ago).

Now if I were GW, I would immediately reach out to them, sell them a license for like a penny, and put their work on the new app. But I'm not.

I

 Overread wrote:


Several of those miniature sculpting campaigns are back online.

The "not nighthaunt" one even posted this. (sorry for the large size it wasn't my original screengrab)

Spoiler:

Which is a proof that talking with GW isn't as scary as it looks.

I find it a shame the TTS guy didn't even try to do that, but then it's his own decision in the end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Now if I were GW, I would immediately reach out to them, sell them a license for like a penny, and put their work on the new app. But I'm not.

I

For that, they have to be aware about its existence. GW isn't omniscient. There may be rumors about TTS being followed by some GW guys, but who knows if it's the truth or...simply, if it's just the case recently.

I'd never heard of them before this, so thought I'd check them out. Ho hum. Not gonna lie, they're not great so, personally, no great loss. But ymmv.

 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

Don't be naive.

This "But they didn't make him do it!" line of argument that Sarouan is peddling in his desperate attempts to protect GW is so disingenuous as to be actually insulting. I'm surprised to find you following along.

Goodness me there is a lot of overreaction in this thread. And in many cases, a total lack of understanding of how these things work!

Thank you Sarouan and Overread (as ever) for being voices of reason in this maelstrom of internet whining.