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Daemon Summoning:
Instead of moving in their movement phase, any CHAOS CHARACTER can attempt to summon a unit of Daemons at the end of the Movement phase, attempt to summon a Daemon unit with this ability. by performing a Daemonic Ritual. (The character cannot do so if they arrived as reinforcements this turn or they themselves have been summoned to the battlefield this turn.)

Does Incursion bypass the above statements regarding arrived as reinforcements, because arriving as reinforcements counts as your movement phase?

Incursion can be cast during the psychic phase but counts as if it were the movement phase for summoning.

Can Deepstrike, Terrax termite, or Dreadclaw drop pod allow the ritual using Incursion.

You might want to give the rule fir incursion.

Always check the FAQs first.

Q: Can a model use the Incursion psychic power to summon a unit
even if it has moved during this turn? What about if it has already
used the Daemonic Ritual ability this turn?
A: Yes in either case.

I think the FAQ on what you post is not the same as my question.

Q: Can a model use the Incursion psychic power to summon a unit
even if it has moved during this turn? What about if it has already
used the Daemonic Ritual ability this turn?
A: Yes in either case.

The above FAQ is stating: 1. Yes, you can move, and then in the psychic phase cast incursion to summon. 2. I dont move and summon, then in the psychic phase I incursion and summon again.

My question is specifically coming in as reinforcement and being able to summon. Which the rule says you cannot do. However, the rule does not clarify if it is because coming in as reinforcement counts as a move (in which case incursion bypass reinforcement) or it reads specifically that no matter what, you cannot summon if you came in as reinforcement. I cannot find any FAQ on that part.

A unit counts as having moved when it arrives as reinforcements.

2. REINFORCEMENTS
Some units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in a location other than on the battlefield; units that use such rules are called Reinforcements, and they will arrive later in the battle as described by their rule. Any Reinforcement units that have not been set up on the battlefield when the battle ends count as having been destroyed.

If you have any Reinforcement units, then in this step of the Movement phase you can now select them and set them up on the battlefield, one at a time. Once all your Reinforcement units that you wish to set up this turn have been set up, the Movement phase ends and you progress to the Psychic phase. Details of how to set up Reinforcement units are described in the same rules that enabled the unit to be set up in a location other than the battlefield.

Reinforcement units cannot make a Normal Move, Advance, Fall Back or Remain Stationary in the turn they arrive for any reason, but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, fight etc.). Models in units that arrived as Reinforcements count as having moved a distance in inches equal to their Move (M) characteristic in this Movement phase.

The FAQ allows to summon with incursion when the unit has moved in the movement phase. So you can summon with incursion when you arrive as reinforcements.

Ahhh, you have opened my eye

While you would assume the bar on summoning after reinforcements is due to moving, it doesn't say so. But being in parens, the rule should merely be a reminder, from a technical standpoint.

So, currently, you cannot summon having arrived from reinforcements. That is because there is an explicit bar on it, and this bar is not conditional on you counting as moved

Wouldn't the wording of incursion allow it even if the manifesting model arrived from reserves this turn?

The wording says

"If manifested the psyker can immediately attempt to summon a unit of demons to the battlefield using the demonic ritual ability as if it were the movement phase."

The part where it says "can immediately attempt" would override the main rulebook restriction.

No, because that's an allowance that isn't as specific as the absolute restriction on "not from reserves mate"

If it said, it can summon even if it had arrived from reinforcement,s that would be specific permission.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, because that's an allowance that isn't as specific as the absolute restriction on "not from reserves mate"

If it said, it can summon even if it had arrived from reinforcement,s that would be specific permission.

You cant summon when you arrive as reinforcements this turn, but you can summon with incursion when you arrive as reinforcements this turn, because the FAQ says you can.

Except it doesn't say that. It allows you to summon if you have moved. It does NOT allow you to summon if you have arrived as reinforcements, and the restriction on summoning if you arrive as reinforcements is NOT stated to be because you have moved. As such you cannot make the leap you are making.

The actual rule: The character cannot do so if they arrived as reinforcements this turn

The faq:
Q: Can a model use the Incursion psychic power to summon a unit
even if it has moved during this turn? What about if it has already
used the Daemonic Ritual ability this turn?
A: Yes in either case.

Please find a) the phrase "because it counts as having moved" or similar in the former, or the word "reinforcements" in the latter.

Isn't this arguing in the negative? Ala "It doesn't say we CAN'T" style argument. To be fair, I don't see how this is even an issue. The phase to summon comes before the movement phase, right? I don't play chaos, so someone help me out here, but if they arrive by reinforcement, they've already missed the phase to summon correct?

Incorrect.

Last I check codex rules take precedence over main rulebook. If the rulebook says no but the codex says yes then the answer is yes. In this case the rulebook says you can't summon but the codex says to immediately summon, the rule book loses the face off and you summon, no FAQ necessary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except it doesn't say that. It allows you to summon if you have moved. It does NOT allow you to summon if you have arrived as reinforcements, and the restriction on summoning if you arrive as reinforcements is NOT stated to be because you have moved. As such you cannot make the leap you are making.

The actual rule: The character cannot do so if they arrived as reinforcements this turn

The faq:
Q: Can a model use the Incursion psychic power to summon a unit
even if it has moved during this turn? What about if it has already
used the Daemonic Ritual ability this turn?
A: Yes in either case.

Please find a) the phrase "because it counts as having moved" or similar in the former, or the word "reinforcements" in the latter.

I think you are misunderstanding. A character can arrive from reinforcements, and then he cant summon, because the actual rule says so, the character cannot do so if they arrived as reinforcements this turn. But incursion is a psychic power, and that happens in the psychic phase. If the power is manifested the summoning happens in the psychic phase. He can summon even if he moved this turn. Arriving as reinforcements counts as having moved. FAQs says he can, so he can.

 Aftersong wrote:
Last I check codex rules take precedence over main rulebook. If the rulebook says no but the codex says yes then the answer is yes. In this case the rulebook says you can't summon but the codex says to immediately summon, the rule book loses the face off and you summon, no FAQ necessary.

That is not how it works.

Can't trumps can.

Specific trumps general.

If you have a rule that says you can not shoot, after advancing, and a codex rule that says to immediately shoot, you still can not shoot, unless it says to immediately shoot even after advancing. It needs to call out the restriction to over-ride that restriction.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except it doesn't say that. It allows you to summon if you have moved. It does NOT allow you to summon if you have arrived as reinforcements, and the restriction on summoning if you arrive as reinforcements is NOT stated to be because you have moved. As such you cannot make the leap you are making.

The actual rule: The character cannot do so if they arrived as reinforcements this turn

The faq:
Q: Can a model use the Incursion psychic power to summon a unit
even if it has moved during this turn? What about if it has already
used the Daemonic Ritual ability this turn?
A: Yes in either case.

Please find a) the phrase "because it counts as having moved" or similar in the former, or the word "reinforcements" in the latter.

I think you are misunderstanding. A character can arrive from reinforcements, and then he cant summon, because the actual rule says so, the character cannot do so if they arrived as reinforcements this turn. But incursion is a psychic power, and that happens in the psychic phase. If the power is manifested the summoning happens in the psychic phase. He can summon even if he moved this turn. Arriving as reinforcements counts as having moved. FAQs says he can, so he can.

I'm not misunderstanding anything

The prohibition on summoning is THIS TURN. Not this phase. Turn. So, in the psychic phase, THIS TURN the character cannot summon using incursion, because he arrived as reinforcements.

The prohibition on summoning having arrived by reinforcements has NOTHING, RAW, TO DO WITH HAVING MOVED. Again, we know this because the rule makes no reference to the reason you can't summon post reinforcements being down to having moved.
The faq absolutely is silent, completely and utterly silent, on being able to summon having arrived as reinforcements. It allows you to summon if moved, or if you've already summoned. Nothing more. It does not allow you to summon if you're wearing pink boots, it does not allow you to summon due to you having done a little jog, and it does not allow you to summon having arrived as reinforcements


This time, if you disagree, please use the actual rules quoted to proved otherwise. I've already told you what's needed for your unsupported in raw (but maybe intent, but the structure of the rule does not assist in diving that the reason for the reinforcements prohibition is movement) leap of logic to work, and you've failed to address those points.

Agreed with Nos.

The Daemonic Ritual rule says that a character can summon instead of moving, and that it cannot summon if it arrived as reinforcements or was itself summoned this turn.

These three requirements are not linked in any way. Incursion removes one of those requirements via FAQ, but doesn't touch the other two, so they still apply.

 Cheex wrote:
Agreed with Nos.

The Daemonic Ritual rule says that a character can summon instead of moving, and that it cannot summon if it arrived as reinforcements or was itself summoned this turn.

These three requirements are not linked in any way. Incursion removes one of those requirements via FAQ, but doesn't touch the other two, so they still apply.

Its irrelevant what any rule says. When the FAQ says the character can summon with incursion after moving it overrules everything.

 p5freak wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
Agreed with Nos.

The Daemonic Ritual rule says that a character can summon instead of moving, and that it cannot summon if it arrived as reinforcements or was itself summoned this turn.

These three requirements are not linked in any way. Incursion removes one of those requirements via FAQ, but doesn't touch the other two, so they still apply.

Its irrelevant what any rule says. When the FAQ says the character can summon with incursion after moving it overrules everything.

No, you're wrong. It cannot overrule "everything", be sue it only says you can summon having moved. Reinforcements is not mentioned, so the CANNOT SUMMON condition is still applied

You arrived as reinforcements, so you cannot summon. The faq doesn't change this.

We've explained why.

Since you're not debating rules, just something you have made up , you're done here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Since you're not debating rules, just something you have made up , you're done here.

No, its you who makes something up. FAQs overrule any rule. They can even allow something that is 100% against RAW.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Since you're not debating rules, just something you have made up , you're done here.

No, its you who makes something up. FAQs overrule any rule. They can even allow something that is 100% against RAW.

I totally agree that they CAN do so

Trouble for your stance is that the FAQ DOES NOT do so here
You're assuming, I guess, that the restriction on summoning post Reinforcements is due to having moved. The big trouble for you, as I've patiently explained multiple times and you've completely failed to address, is that the actual bloody rule does not state that. It is completely silent on why reinforcements are banned from summoning

So all you have is a FAQ allowance to summon

Having
Moved

Not
Having arrived from reinforcements

Again. Show me where the faq explicitly allows this. Yiu can't, so you could just admit you're wring. It'll save you time.

I already said how it works, its not my fault that you are unable to understand it.

 p5freak wrote:
I already said how it works, its not my fault that you are unable to understand it.

No, you made a statement , factually incorrect, that an allowance to summon after moving allows yiu to summon having arrived from reinforcements

That this statement is completely wring seems to have escaped you.
It's not my fault you can neither explain your statement - why moving has anything to do with reinforcements, for example, as you've been asked multiple times but completely failed to do x nor use an actual rule to back up your argument.

Yet again, you're making up rules to suit.